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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 11:31:41 AM
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Namaste Friends....
Currently I am enrolled in a Buddhist Principles class and we have been studying a book by Phillip Moffat called "Dancing with Life, Finding Joy and Meaning in the Face of Suffering".....We are going very slowly and are basically focussing on the first noble Truth (There is Suffering) and the three insights around this Noble Truth. According to the teacher abiding in the Witness state is basically "running from your suffering" and instead we should "stand under our suffering" and embrace it. Now perhaps I am just confusing myself with words here and am totally missing the point, but won't "standing under your suffering" make it much more difficult to see it for what it is from a place of inner silence? Won't it be that much harder to not identify with your suffering using this approach? Personally I seem to see this differently then the teacher or my entire class. I find that if I DO abide in the Witness state during a time of suffering, it is easy to see the mind grasping at thoughts that create suffering around an event. When I try to "stand under my suffering" experiencing it in full, it is very hard not to identify with it. I would very much appreciate it if anyone with a Buddhist background could show me what I am missing here as I'm sure I am missing something. Thanks.
Love,
Carson |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 3:34:03 PM
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| IMHO, You are not missing something. Perhaps it is an issue of words and definitions. To be fair, perhaps the teacher is assuming a specific sort of witness state practice which he would believe is not mindful. I would assert that one must witness their karma, meaning the appearances and the thoughts and feelings. You must know you are suffering, must observe the cause of suffering is attachment, and must observe when attachments arise. This is a prerequisite to being introduced to the mind's non-suffering essence, the gateway to nirvana. A buddhist teacher is always concerned with mindfulness, which is another way of saying witness state. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 3:40:06 PM
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Thanks Osel...
She (the teacher) doesn't use the word Witness often but uses the words "Detached Observer" more often. To me they are basically synonymous. Would that make any difference in your opinion?
Love,
Carson
P.S> Actually the more I inquire about it the more I can see a difference between "Detached Observer" and the "Witness". The Witness shouldn't be "detached". It is a bit of a paradox but I am realizing that the Witness is more active then detached. Perhaps Observer and Witness are synonymous, but "Detached Observer" indicates "fleeing" IMO. |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 04 2009 4:07:33 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 4:28:26 PM
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Hi Carson
I am not a buddhist.....but am here with this anyway:
Over the years....it became more and more obvious that...here... the emerging of "detached observing" could not happen through distancing myself from any object. On the contrary.....here it is the.....allowing of the full impact of that which I am exposed to...it is this that reveals...and eventually leads to transcendence of consciousness enmeshed either through aversion or desire.....(which is the definition of suffering). Here it is as if being open...open...open.....and as such not contracting away from......nor moving towards.....this somehow puts one in the centre of any....turmoil.....and from here the perspective is 360 degrees. One tastes everything from here...
It is also this that has helped me most regarding the constant ecstacy....to first not move away from...nor towards the fact that I was enmeshed in it....this revealed the ways I was indulging in it......and this revealed the connection with the consequences. And so .....finally this habit dropped. This has been the way all discoveries regarding suffering has been made here.....
Probably because I am so stubborn.....my nose needs to be rubbed in it 
The perspective here...is that...even through it took years before the inner silence had risen to a certain level within where staying still was possible.....staying open is more constructive than moving away from. When inner silence is prevalent.....it is possible to "dive in"...no..."expand" is a better word.... (stay open) and still....be able to....discover what is what. While as when the looking is mental.....distancing oneself is a contraction.....it is to not be mindful.....one may be aloof then...but to no avail. The "juice" is gone.
In other words....if not relational (coming from inner silence)...then the looking...the witnessing....will not be That observing.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 4:50:47 PM
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Hi Katrine...
Thank you for sharing your wisdom....
These two lines were really felt deep:
quote:
"here it is the.....allowing of the full impact of that which I am exposed to...it is this that reveals...and eventually leads to transcendence of consciousness enmeshed either through aversion or desire"
and
quote:
"Here it is as if being open...open...open.....and as such not contracting away from......nor moving towards.....this somehow puts one in the centre of any....turmoil.....and from here the perspective is 360 degrees. One tastes everything from here..."
Thank you.
Love,
Carson |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 5:18:25 PM
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Wonderful Carson 
We cross posted....but i can see from the editing you did while I was responding...that you got the jist of it on your own
As usual..... ....I love that!! |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 5:23:49 PM
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Yes.... I probably was reading your post in my head before you even wrote it .....funny how that happens sometimes. Thank you for your gracious sharing as always. Much love.
Love,
Carson |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 5:29:11 PM
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PS:
quote:
P.S> Actually the more I inquire about it the more I can see a difference between "Detached Observer" and the "Witness". The Witness shouldn't be "detached". It is a bit of a paradox but I am realizing that the Witness is more active then detached. Perhaps Observer and Witness are synonymous, but "Detached Observer" indicates "fleeing" IMO.
When able to taste...from the centre....one actually ends up being detached from that which moves....while inside it. It is just that this is a spontaneous consquence of being open....not the means to it. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 5:30:58 PM
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LOL:
quote:
Yes.... I probably was reading your post in my head before you even wrote it.....funny how that happens sometimes.
Much love to you too Carson |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 6:34:37 PM
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Detached observer, witness. No difference.
Detached means neither allowing nor rejecting. It is a high state. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 7:19:56 PM
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Hi Osel...
Do you know if there are different perspectives on this depending on the "style" of Buddhism being taught? I am learning in the Theraveda tradition and I know you are based in the Vajrayana tradition. Is there a difference in regards to this topic between the different traditions? Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
Love,
Carson |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 8:37:15 PM
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| I don't think so. Perhaps different ways of explaining. Mindfulness is a fundamental teaching common to all the vehicles. The part about neither accepting nor rejecting, keep that to yourself. I don't think she will have been exposed to that. But it may elucidate her teachings while allowing you to stay open to all the coming levels. Remember, be like a bee, just take the honey. You don't need to love the whole flower. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2009 : 03:15:07 AM
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quote:
Katrine wrote:
While as when the looking is mental.....distancing oneself is a contraction.....it is to not be mindful.....one may be aloof then...but to no avail. The "juice" is gone.
Hi Katrine
I heard Jon Kabut-Zinn (the guy who has done all the clinical research on mindfulness) say recently that.
"Anyone who thinks mindfulness is in the head, is missing the point completely, mindfulness is heartfulness. The Chinese symbol for mindfulness is Essence on the top and Heart on the bottom of the character, and this more accurately describes mindfulness"
From the heart-mind
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2009 : 03:33:59 AM
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Hi Louis
Jon Kabut-Zinn:
quote:
"Anyone who thinks mindfulness is in the head, is missing the point completely, mindfulness is heartfulness. The Chinese symbol for mindfulness is Essence on the top and Heart on the bottom of the character, and this more accurately describes mindfulness"
Wow...wonderful....thanks for that Louis
I'd love to see that symbol.....maybe it can be googled...
Hope i meat him one day.....Jon Kabut-Zinn.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2009 : 08:49:05 AM
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| In Vajrayana, when we do visualizations we imagine white light purifying the body touches the head; blue light purifying the mind touches the heart... |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jun 05 2009 08:49:43 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2009 : 12:15:43 PM
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Beautiful Ösel Dorje.
Thank you |
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The Witness and Suffering
