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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 6:56:15 PM
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For those who dont know what it is- Vipassana retreat is a 10 day course of meditation in which they meditate for around 11 hours per each day! In that 4 hours in group meditation. They practice complete silence for the 10 days.
AYP recommends not more than the daily twice with regular activity. But I am amazed to see that they do 11 hours/day of meditation safely. Is this something that we could try to do on a weekend with our AYP meditation? By practising complete silence and no activity ofcourse.
If you want your neighbor to believe in God, let him see what God can make you like. - Emerson |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 11:46:33 PM
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Hi Near:
I can't speak for Vipassana, but strongly recommend against doing AYP deep meditation for 11 hours, or even much more than your regular time in a sitting. If you want to take a "retreat" at home with AYP, I suggest the multiple session approach, but not more than three sessions a day starting out. You will be surprised at the additional purification with just one more session in a day. Four sessions in one day is really pouring it on, so take it easy -- self-pacing, you know.
See the following lessons for more detail, or look up "Retreats" in the topic Index:
http://www.aypsite.com/148.html
http://www.aypsite.com/193.html
http://www.aypsite.com/250.html
The guru is in you.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 10:08:12 AM
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Hi,
I must agree with yogani here.Vipassana is unlikely to have the same effect as AYP or other styles of meditation.Not all meditation is the same and the simpler methods are often the most effective.If you were to do anhustan with AYP or other styles you may find the cleansing effects are too much to handle.It all depends on how much you are prepared to suffer to make faster progress.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 5:25:44 PM
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Any thoughts as to why some some methods of meditation allow practitioners to safely do 10 hours+ mediation a day where others like AYP, would leave us with a bad case of prana burn and/ or symptoms of over-release if we tried the same?
My thinking has been that it is because AYP is a more powerful method of releasing blockages and karma than most other systems. I have noticed that the mantra based meditation seems to be more potent than other forms of meditation I have practiced. I am also surmising that the use of spinal breathing pranayama and mudras performed before hand seems to add a lot of zip to the process as well.
Any thoughts? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 5:57:44 PM
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By the way, let's not put words in Yogani's mouth -- Yogani did not diminish Vipassana relative to AYP-style mantra yoga, he just said that he cannot speak for it. He usually speaks with some nuance.
>> My thinking has been that it is because AYP is a more powerful method of releasing blockages and karma than most other systems. I have noticed that the mantra based meditation seems to be more potent than other forms of meditation I have practiced.
My own experience has been the same. This kind of thing may depend a lot on your particular nervous system though --- though at the same time, some methods may be on an average through people, much better than others.
-D |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 29 2005 6:00:13 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 6:16:27 PM
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Dear David,
I'm sorry if you misunderstood my comments as I was not trying to put words into anyones mouth but was agreeing that it may not be wise to practice 11 hrs of AYP meditation.My experience of mantra meditation is that it is more effective than other types and that the effect of mantra meditation varies with the mantras.When I studied TM I was given the mantra I IM and although the effects were good there is no comparision to the siddha mantras for meditation or japa.Yes your energy circuits determine the effects you may get as I found out when I was involved in healing work.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2005 : 12:03:20 AM
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Here's how vipassana is done. click here
They just observe the breath (inhaling and exhaling). So nothing might happen even if we do for 11 hours.
But those 10 day retreats I heard give the practitioners lot of experiences.
If you want your neighbor to believe in God, let him see what God can make you like. - Emerson |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2005 : 12:05:37 AM
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Here's the experience of one of the practitioner who attended the retreat. I got this from some other forum...
well, folks i am not looking for a reputation as long winded but this one is a doozy!
Act like you are all alone. Pretend you are the only one on the property. My ten days observing noble silence was much like that -- on the outside. On the inside, it was like taking a good look into the depths of the mind of a mental patient, complete with multiple personalities. Chilling and sobering stuff.
I had a few “genius” moments -- during which, I was sure the whole world was standing still as I made revelations about life and love and my own place in the universe. The stuff stoner movies are made of!
Once I arrived home, however, I sat around like a depressed zombie for a few days. Occasionally, positive vibes soared within but for the most part, re-entering the earth’s atmosphere was tougher than I had anticipated. I was suffering all the effects of jet lag or a bad come down. I was weird and spacey and tired at all the wrong times. I had siesta everyday for the first week home.
I got really stressed out too. I felt I had a lot to live up to. I was unprepared for the task at hand – daily meditation – practice. Practice being a good and moral person everyday.
That was the big message I took away from my ten days. Anyone can call themselves a Buddhist or a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew. But how many live a moral life everyday? Buddha didn’t care what god you worshipped. He taught mindful meditation. (That was not a part of the program) – just what I personally came away with.
I spent ten days trapped in my own mind. Each day my technique improved and my ability to observe objectively appeared. Soon after, my own immorality reared its ugly head in the form of memories.
Memories of things and people that I haven’t thought of in YEARS, if ever! Just to give you a tame taste of the movie that was playing inside my head – flash way back to high school-- J.L., the Swedish exchange student and my first boyfriend. He thought a date on a Friday night was a youth group meeting at his church. I was not on the same page. I ditched him (lied) one night to go to a party. He showed up outside on his ten speed in the middle of the night. I told him to go home. I stayed and partied. I broke his little Swedish heart.
It never occurred to me until now that I hurt him. Hmmm….isolated incident? Unfortunately, not even close. Over a few days, a parade of former beaus marched through the hollows of my mind. I never realized that I had dated so much! Or that I had crushed so many (read 99%) of these poor guys.
It is as if for years there had been something wrong with them and they had been responsible for not finding happiness with me. In actuality, I just grew bored quickly or was really never interested in the first place……yikes. I wont give you all the sordid details but I just was not a very nice girl. Funny how I thought it was all their faults…until now.
And that was just the past relationships segment of the program. I wont even get into the family stuff.
Morality means different things to different people. For me, it is treating people how you wish to be treated. I think of myself as a kind, considerate and compassionate person but vipassana reminded me of all the times where I hadn’t been. Times when I could have done things differently. I found this incredibly frustrating and exhausting.
Each night as I got under my futon I felt completely wiped out. As if I had run a marathon. If you could have seen the “stretching”(no yoga allowed);) going on in my room you would have thought that I was sharing with seven Olympic athletes instead of peaceful meditators!!
The first couple of night I had a lovely deep sleep. On the third night, the dreams started. Dreams like none I can re-call experiencing-- disturbing and not conducive to resting an already over-taxed mind. From the fourth night, it took me at least an hour to wind down and fall asleep. The four a.m. gong would ring and I would swear I had only just closed my eyes. Some of the dreams were definitely nightmarish in quality. I still shudder if I try to recall them.
Then along came Day six. Day six started out with the usual morning meditation followed by breakfast. After the break, there is a group meditation. We try not to move for the hour: To work with determination, to observe the sensations of the body without reaction. Not to crave a desirable sensation and not to oppose an undesirable one – just observe. Objectively. Sounds easy right? ;)
Things were going along quite well for me at this point. I was thinking: If this is all they have got, then I will be just fine! Any apprehension I had come into the centre with had completely evaporated. I felt great!
I felt pain, I felt pleasure. I felt sadness, anger and joy. I was able (possibly for the first time in my life) to keep it in perspective. To just observe - this gross sensation, that mild one, coming and going, rising with the sole purpose of passing on again. I was officially hooked on vipassana.
By day six, I had an incredible appreciation for the humbly prepared meals. I had learned to eat slowly. I had learned to arrive late and to take small portions. I stopped craving food. It was now just a part of my day – like showering. It served a purpose but it created no positive or negative feelings. It was just nourishment.
That morning, after such an intense morning practice, I felt extra hunger pangs. I took a bowl and piled it high with brown rice and veg. I went outside to eat. It was a beautiful day and the bench on the veranda offered more solitude than the dining hall. When I looked down at my bowl, I realized I had taken much more than I could or wanted to eat. Normally, I would make myself eat it all to punish myself for being a piggy. I could not bear the thought of sitting in the meditation hall for the next four hours with a belly full of food. I tossed it in the compost – I felt so guilty. Then I told myself - ok, you took too much. Now recognize it, tell yourself you wont do it again and get over it! No point in getting the shix over it. Done is done.
Afternoon group meditation went really well. Too well?! I can only tell you what I know to be true. Or what I hallucinated.
During the break, I floated down the stairs and out of the building. I was confronted by stunning views of the mountains and trees around the centre. They called out to me. Come and play in the forest! One problem, everything was sepia. You know that crayon colour? I love to shoot film in sepia but I don’t like to live in it! The colour soon faded and things were back to greens and blues.
I gave my head a shake, headed to the loo and then floated back to the hall. Smiling, the whole way. I even asked myself if I had eaten enough. Certainly I had. Then what is this feeling? This lack of lucidity?
A shrug and a cup of water and I headed back to the hall. The afternoon was spent productively in the hall honing my technique and venturing into unknown territory.
I don’t think I moved straight away when the tea bell rang. I had been motionless for a couple of hours! I had found a completely knew part of myself that I never knew existed. Was everyone feeling the way I was?
I floated out to the garden for a stroll. I stopped to observe random flowers, trees and insects up close. I was a space cadet. There is only one thing I can compare this feeling to…
Having grown up in the Pacific Northwest, I have seen and consumed my fair share of mushrooms -- on camping/hiking trips in the mountains it is not uncommon to find wild patches of the offenders beckoning you to step over to the dark side for a “super” “natural” afternoon . These mushrooms make everything vivid and tactile. Some of you may know what I am on about. They are quite nice on pizza really, much better than in shakes! Had I not known better, I would have sworn that someone had secretly dosed me at meditation camp!
This is when I had an epiphany with a grapefruit. I had a slice of ruby red grapefruit with my ginger/ lemon water every afternoon at tea. This day, as I pulled it away from the peel, I noticed something. Inside the membrane were all these beautiful fruity drops of goodness. Like little raindrops filled with fruit! It occurred to me that in 33 years of eating grapefruit I had failed to notice its structure. I had never really LOOKED at a grapefruit. A second look confirmed -this was no hybrid grapefruit. Just a regular one. I had just never stopped stuffing my face long enough to observe it for what it was. Then I started thinking about Buddhism and Atheism. Something so perfect as that grapefruit – in all its fantastic glory…. How was it created? Surely, it must be a gift from the gods -- so perfect by design. Are there really no gods? What do I believe? Really!! La-la land!
I was so happy and alive. I floated two feet off the ground, daisies in my hair and stars in my eyes. The only thing missing was my “I heart Vipassana” t-shirt.
The next day, I awoke from yet another horrific dream. Day seven slammed into me face first and I began what was to be the most difficult day of my journey.
Everything was wrong, I could not still the chatter in my mind. It felt like one second of concentration was beyond my feeble grasp. Two hours later, I headed to breakfast feeling defeated. What was wrong with me today? Every noise was suddenly violating. I wanted total silence and my fellow meditators in the dining hall were not co-operating! I wanted oatmeal and not rice soup for breakfast! I “settled” for peanut butter toast and prunes. Then I headed to my room to sleep off the horrible hang over.
Of course, this was the day that one of my room mates decided to rifle through a plastic bag for an entire hour as I lay there tossing and turning with my pillow over my head.
(Incidentally, to anyone who is thinking of doing anything where group sleeping arrangements are the norm – do not pack everything in plastic bags! You have no idea how noisy it can be when you are trying to fall asleep or meditate. Trust me on this one!)
By the afternoon I was rotting in the indecent corners of my mind. “Hating myself“ might sound harsh but some of my thoughts were precisely along those lines. I wondered if my outside appearance gave any indication of the loathing I was feeling inside. Pure evil coarsed through my veins. I was able at one point, to convince myself that my previous and wicked ways were much more apt for my personality. And what was I doing trying to fool myself into thinking that I could become a good and moral person? I was much better suited to a shallow existence.
Whoa….I was starting to lose it. By the evening discourse I had resolved myself to the fact that the day was nearing an end. All I had to do was sit through the video and do one more group sitting and then I could be alone! Like I hadn’t been already… As if I had big things to ponder and no time to do it with all the scheduled meditation.
I did not tell myself “tomorrow will be better” – I really did not believe that for one second. I was convinced it was all downhill from here. I was travelling through my own personal hell.
Sometime during the morning of the eight day I snapped out of the crazy funk long enough to hear goenkaji's voice on audio tape reminding me of the impermanence of it all. I soon got back to the serious business of meditation proper. Able to focus once again, I decided that my mind was a tricky little ******* and I was not going to let it get away with any more shenanigans. Trying to convince me to hang out with Darth Vader instead of Yoda! Enough was enough! I would be in charge from now on!
Seriously, writing all of this makes it seem so absurd but an honest account of my experience would be incomplete without the strange but true ramblings of my mind.
The last two days I was sincerely focused on learning as much about the technique as I possibly could. I wanted to use the time to the best of my ability. I stayed until the very end one night to ask the assistant teacher a question. I asked about the samskaras. On the video discourse, Goenkaji discusses the miseries (samskaras)/sankharas rising to the surface and passing away. I wanted to know how and when. Was THAT what I had been feeling? Would I be aware of the comings and goings of the misery? The response was uttered lovingly and with a smile. Do not pay attention to the rising and passing of (samskaras)/sankharas, just sit, everyday and observe the sensations of the body.
It is just like yoga. You can sit around analyzing how long it will take to “get” some asana. If you stop and just practice, one day the asana will come to you. Strategizing its arrival will only impede your progress. That is what I reckon.
The last day when the noble silence was lifted, most of the ladies headed out of the hall quietly and quickly. The dining room soon erupted with chatter. Laughter, relief and joy resounded in the main hall for those of us still seated. I felt deserted. I couldn’t get up and I certainly didn’t feel like participating in the party.
Metta day is the day the final day of the retreat. Metta is an ancient Buddhist word for love, meaning here: universal good-will, universal friendliness, loving-kindness - a kindness that we extend to all beings without exception. (I looked that up) After morning group meditation nobel silence is lifted. You are allowed to communicate and for me it was the first time to see the faces of the people who had been sharing the experience with me for the past ten days. I had kept my head down and had admired some nice shoes but had no idea what the girl sleeping next to me looked like. The segregation was still in effect and that was fine by me as I still had heaps of things running through my head and I wasn’t quite ready to meet up with the mr just yet.
Oh yeah, on top of everything else, my husband was along for the ride. I am proud to report that I made no effort to peek and see if I could see him in the hall. I did not spend my time worrying about him. I did give thought to him daily at meal time. There was a lot of cucumber used in the food prep and dh hates (fears?) cucumber!
My silence was lifted when the girl who had been on the neighbouring futon came in and asked me if I was ok. We had shared a silent moment the night before. It was a defining moment that would ensure our friendship would evolve.
After lights out, I felt something crawl up my neck and into my hair. I froze and then brushed what ever it was out of my hair. It was big. I wasn’t sure what my next step should be. I flicked on the lights and saw a black blur race under my rucksack that was leaning up against the wall beside my futon.
I started to pick things up when I noticed that the girl from the next bed was up and alert. Once she figured out what I was doing (mustve looked like a right lunatic, I reckon!) she came to my aid. I located the invader – a giant cockroach (bigger than my big toe!). Then I froze again. I really didn’t want to deal with this situation and I couldn’t even cuss or scream about it.
I did not even realize that the faceless girl had left the room. She returned with two brooms. One of which she handed to me. At this point our eyes met and so much was said in that brief glance. Together, we swept him out of the room using the “block and chase” method. Silently, she returned the brooms and we turned out the lights and went back to sleep.
I was able to laugh when I told her that the bloody thing had been on my neck and in my hair. It was creepy but not THAT big a deal when I think about it now. After doing the squeamish "gross you had a bug in your hair dance”, we settled in chatting about yoga and life.
By the end of lunch, I knew half the girls at camp. We ALL had bizarre dreams and BAD days. Some had stronger sensations than others. Some were there for the second and third times! It was a very nice group of women. I made a few new friends that day. A very lucky side benefit of attending the course.-- the melding of like-minded individuals.
Now that two weeks have passed, I can say that things are genuinely better. I was feeling less than impressed for the first week home but things have levelled out now. I can already see places where the practical vipassana teachings are being applied in my everyday life.
I still have a lot to work out. I feel much more confident in my ability to master my mind. I feel much less like a drunk monkey who was bit by a scorpion. (This is how my swami at yoga school described the mind without meditation.)
The best thing that came out of vipassana (which I am TRYING to view objectively) is a new closeness that seems to have developed between me and my husband. We were already extremely close so this has been unexpected and delightful. We are in sync. He GETS me.
And the strangest thing to come out of it – dh has started clearing away the dishes after dinner. I am not complaining, just pleasantly surprised.
We are planning to go back next year. Maybe if we do, he will start doing the dishes ;)
If you want your neighbor to believe in God, let him see what God can make you like. - Emerson |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 09:51:51 AM
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Some kinds of meditation seem less likely to cause problems than others when done for a long time. I think Vipassana, obviously, is one which causes less problems when done for a long time. Part of it is I think, it is not 'cathartic'. I think mantra yoga does tend to be cathartic (does stir up and release stresses).
Mantra yoga also has a fairly particular feature too --- it is usually worse to jump straight out of it than it is for other meditation methods. This could be connected to the depth of meditation, though I don't think it is just that simple. I think there are meditative states which are deep but not problematic to stop quickly. I think this one is just a particular feature of, shall we say, the organic processes of mantra yoga.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 10:39:10 AM
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Getting a little away from the original topic here but in keeping with some of these later posts, I was inspired to try adding in a third AYP session this weekend to see how it felt. So yesterday, instead of my normal two, I added a third mid-day session and made my last session a little later on in order to spread things out. Everything seemed to go pretty well, I kept my sessions to normal time frames, there was stability, good energy flow and no negative side-effects that I could detect before or after any of the sessions. Overall, a very positive experience.
So that being said and done in my mind, I was a little surprised when I woke up this morning feeling physically exhausted despite going to bed early and sleeping a little longer than usual. Could be a variety of factors, but physically I had a very easy day yesterday, so was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience from doing an extra session or two?
thanks,
A
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 10:48:16 AM
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As someone who radically defies Yogani's advice by doing a 90 min daily asana practice (rather than the 10 mins he recommends), I wouldn't dream of doing or recommending AYP meditation for much more than 20 mins. I don't know how to gauge how powerful or effective a meditation practice is, but I know how I physically feel, and 20 minutes of AYP I'm pretty tired (after the rest period, I'm usually pretty refreshed, though). And I'm the endurance-minded, "bring it on" type.
Just FWIW. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 31 2005 10:48:46 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2005 : 4:50:31 PM
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Just wanted to add some "responsible reporting" to my above post about adding in a third AYP session a couple of weekends back.
Although, I did wake up feeling physically drained and depleted as I mentioned above, timing would have it that I ended up fighting a virus over the next few days which helps explain the low energy situation. I didn't want anyone to get scared off of experimenting with extra sessions because of my original post.
Interestingly, I haven't been sick once since I started AYP last January. I was never really prone to being sick very often in the past and this time around the symptoms were mostly low energy in nature with a little bit of a sore throat. I didn't get the usual full-blown "cold symptoms" I normally do, I felt mainly "cloudy" in the mind and noticed myself to be "moodier" than usual, but that is about it.
Of course all this could be the nature of this particular virus (which is not how they usually manifest for me) but it could also be the AYP practices that helped spur a more resilient immune response and helped make the whole process of fighting a virus a smoother affair. More observation over the next few years will provide interesting insight for me on if and how AYP practices help keep a person healthier.
cheers
A |
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jerry108
1 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 08:33:01 AM
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I recently experienced a Goenka Vipassana retreat. I researched as much as I could before I went. However upon my return I looked further a eventually found this site.
http://vipassana-cult.co.uk
I must say I wish I'd read this before I went. |
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Trix
Australia
2 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2006 : 10:56:16 AM
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Hi Guys
I personally have attended one of the 10 day vipassana retreats and have found it to be very useful in my daily life and find that It has enhanced my AYP practice dramatically. Vipassana its a very deep and powerful meditation technique It takes this kind of intense process to learn it because of the depth required experience it correctly. As motioned by yogani the majority of peoples nervous systems are very clogged. you spend the first 3 day clearing the nervous system so that you can start vipassana meditation. Through vipassana I have developed awareness on a cellular level and am able to feel many of my emotions and tendencies arise in my body as a sensation or energy before they manifest in my thoughts or actions. This doesn’t happen for all thing but only those I have dug deep enough to find. So when distracting influences arise in me I am able to remain equanimas and focus In daily life and when meditation on the mantra I AM. By this I don’t mean that I combine the meditations in any way or for my am able to stay fixed on the mantra than if I had never done vipassana. But I’m sure this would happen over time just by doing AYP
Also for those that are interested the effects mantra meditation have on the brain are some what similar to those of the Hemi-sync cd's and the mind machines that work with binaural beats. When you finish very abruptly manta meditation or session with these CD’s or machines, your brain goes into somatic shock. Which will cause allot of anxiety and emotional upheaval. I have spend allot of time using the sort of technology and have had some pretty dramatic experiences that would throw throw me into deep cycles of depression and anxiety.
Though what I have learned by doing vipassana this doesn’t happen at all. I am now able to do much more longer and intense session of meditation and am able to let all of the anxiety arise and pass away effortlessly.
All This being said AYP is one of the simplest and most comprehensive techniques for change I have ever come across and have been the only one that I have been able to Integrated into my life so effectively. So vipassana has had a positive effect on my life but no to the degree that AYP has.
Trix |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2006 : 12:07:59 PM
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Hi Trix,
The Divine Sound will do all the things the hemi-sync and others do, and more, much cheaper and much safer also.It has been scientifically tested and proven.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Vipassana Retreats
