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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 11 2009 :  7:44:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
No

The transition to the rainbow body occurs at the same time when the nature of the mind, omniscience, is realized.

It is NOT later.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 11 2009 :  8:02:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kirtanman,

quote:

“Therefore there is no such thing as saying: ‘By this discipline or practice or austerity or holy life I will bring my un-ripened kamma to fruition, or I will gradually make this ripened kamma go away.’ Neither of these things is possible, because pleasure and pain have been measured out with a measure limited by the round of birth-and-death, and there is neither increase nor decrease, neither excellence nor inferiority. Just as a ball of string when thrown runs till it is all unraveled, so fools and wise run on and circle round till they make and end of suffering.”

Hardcore, indeed!

It's like there's *no* place at all for the conceptual-sufferer, the ego-dream, to run, to hide, to do .... to not do ....

Just a sheer, infinite drop-off of non-conceptuality at every turn ...

... until the ego-dream not only has no choice ... but no ego to dream at all ... until all that's left is (hey ... wow .... non-imagine this! -->) ... to let the dream dissolve ... to stop conceiving of the conceiver of the concepts; to end suffering in the last way the mind could *ever* dream of: by ending the concept of the limited sufferER.


And this Sutta is only the beginning...

One of my Buddhist teachers once recounted to me the last words that his master spoke to him, when his master was on his death bed. His master asked him the question:

"When you cannot go forwards and you cannot go backwards, you cannot go left and you cannot go right, you cannot go up and you cannot go down, and you cannot stand still, where can you go?"

One day this story will make it into the scriptures, and someone will add the line: "At this point the disciple attained full enlightenment"

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 11 2009 :  8:13:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Alwayson,

quote:
No

The transition to the rainbow body occurs at the same time when the nature of the mind, omniscience, is realized.

It is NOT later.


You sound very sure. Is this knowledge based on direct experience, or something you read in a book?

Christi
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 11 2009 :  11:32:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Osel,

quote:

Where does it say it's a journey?

The Buddha is the nature of mind.


One of the meanings of Dharma is way, or path. Even today the various schools of Buddhism are described as "vehicles" as they are designed to carry you along the path of awakening. The Pali for vehicle is yana, as in Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana.

There are many different definitions of the word "Buddha". Essentially it is the past participle of the root verb Budh, to be awake. So it means "awakened" or "one who is awakened". The realization of the true nature of mind is one of the stages on the path of awakening (Dharma). The transition from the physical body to the body of divine light, also called the rainbow body, is a transition that occurs further down the river. Another stage on the journey.

Even once the rainbow body has been achieved, there is still a lot of work to do, in terms of service and teaching. People who inhabit only the rainbow body teach in silence by radiating the energy of divine love.

Christi



Very nice. This was quite beautiful. Yes, the whole point of the path is that the only meaningful activity is the service of all sentient beings. The Rainbow Body is the fruit of our wish to manifest the teachings in whatever way might benefit others.

Actually, "dharma"'s meaning is closer to nature. It means "way" as in, "the way it is." Law, manner, etc.

The Dharma of the mind is the way the mind really is, the "nature" of mind. The "nature" of our cosmos is the "dharma" of the cosmos. The direct experience realizes the nature of mind and the nature of the cosmos are non-dual.

"Path" is a metaphor for "practice."

When the Practice and the Way It Is come together as a direct experience (aka The View), then one's meditation is the natural self-liberation, the path of effortlessness.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 12 2009 12:15:45 AM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 11 2009 :  11:37:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

No

The transition to the rainbow body occurs at the same time when the nature of the mind, omniscience, is realized.

It is NOT later.



http://www.thangkar.com/art/show/sh...ka/ekab2.jpg
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  10:33:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

http://www.thangkar.com/art/show/sh...ka/ekab2.jpg



Is this supposed to be a representation of Vajrayogini?

Love,
Carson
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grihastha

USA
184 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  11:35:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit grihastha's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:


Is this supposed to be a representation of Vajrayogini?


It's Ekajati, the Dzogchen protector.

Emaho!

gri
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  1:52:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi,

Unlike Konchok Ösel Dorje, I follow the teaching of the Dalai Lama, as espoused in his web lectures, interviews and his many writings. (I am always astonished at that amount of things he has written. He has to be the most prolific author of our times.)

You cannot separate the three bodies of the Buddha. This is a central tenet of Vajrayana.

You cannot separate dharmakaya (omniscience) and the Sambhogakaya (rainbow body).

So a practitioner realizes the nature of the mind (omniscience/dharmakaya) at the same time as the Sambhogakaya (rainbow body).


P.S. To Osel, if we need to lose attachment to the physical body, are you against exercise?

Everyone would become fat, and their lifespans shortened. My brother is a doctor, and I can assure you that the value of exercise is mainstream medicine, not on the fringe. I am actually going out to run outside right now. I view energy body practice as another form of exercise.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 12 2009 4:45:00 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  3:20:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Please see the Togal (Leap-Over) teachings in this authoritative text: Natural Liberation: Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos. These are the best openly taught Togal teachings from a teacher in HH Dudjom Rinpoche's lineage (the Nyingmapa Lineage).

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Liber...04114&sr=8-1

Alwayson,

Of course exercise is nice. I also practice hatha daily and eat very healthy food. The body is the deity. The body should be a good health, because meditation is supported by a healthy body. Our unhealthy body is due to karmic problems.

But this is not analogous to the energy body practices. Remember, in Vajra Yoga, the body is a "confused projection." It is impure. The best energy body practice purifies confusion, attachment and aversion. The best energy body is ineffible, like a rainbow. The "imaginary bs" of deity yoga and guru yoga is to familiarize the practitioner with this reality of the body. The best exercise is no effort, like Togal, if that's why you're into.

Liberation of attachment to self starts with bodhicitta, refuge and practice.
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  4:53:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Energy body practice is exercise from my point of view. They both consume extra calories for example. I could write an essay on the similarities.

P.S.

There is no visualization in Tibetan. It is an English word.

So all Westerners do the "visualization" wrong. Which was my point all along.

Visualization is indeed imaginary B.S.

The correct Tibetan teaching is NOT.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 12 2009 6:45:44 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  7:00:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Osel,

quote:
Actually, "dharma"'s meaning is closer to nature. It means "way" as in, "the way it is." Law, manner, etc.

The Dharma of the mind is the way the mind really is, the "nature" of mind. The "nature" of our cosmos is the "dharma" of the cosmos. The direct experience realizes the nature of mind and the nature of the cosmos are non-dual.

"Path" is a metaphor for "practice."

When the Practice and the Way It Is come together as a direct experience (aka The View), then one's meditation is the natural self-liberation, the path of effortlessness.


Many words in Pali have many meanings, and Dharma (or Dhamma to be more precise) is one of them. The way, the path, the teachings of the Buddha, the truth, religion, the natural law, conduct in accordance with the natural law, the fundamental nature of all phenomenon... these are some of the meanings of the word. It is a very beautiful word and always reminds me of the saying of Christ: "I am the way, the truth and the life".

Christi


Edited by - Christi on Aug 12 2009 8:03:08 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  7:36:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Christi,

Unlike Konchok Ösel Dorje, I follow the teaching of the Dalai Lama, as espoused in his web lectures, interviews and his many writings. (I am always astonished at that amount of things he has written. He has to be the most prolific author of our times.)



What does the Dalai Lama have to say about the Nature of Mind? Hint: Rigpa of the ground.

He definitely doesn't say the Nature of Mind is a figment of the imagination. It is a term to describe the clear absence of mind that one becomes familiar in a direct introduction.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 12 2009 8:00:03 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2009 :  8:27:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Alwayson,

quote:
Christi,

Unlike Konchok Ösel Dorje, I follow the teaching of the Dalai Lama, as espoused in his web lectures, interviews and his many writings. (I am always astonished at that amount of things he has written. He has to be the most prolific author of our times.)

You cannot separate the three bodies of the Buddha. This is a central tenet of Vajrayana.

You cannot separate dharmakaya (omniscience) and the Sambhogakaya (rainbow body).

So a practitioner realizes the nature of the mind (omniscience/dharmakaya) at the same time as the Sambhogakaya (rainbow body).


These things cannot be understood with the mind. The relationship between nibbhana and the dharmakaya and between the dharmakaya and the sambhogakaya are things that can only be known through direct experience. This is why the Buddha taught spiritual practice as the principal means for the attainment of liberation.

In silence, all these things are revealed.

Christi
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  12:12:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
All I know is that if you obtain either omniscience (dharmakaya) or the sambhogakaya, you automatically obtain the other at the same time.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 13 2009 01:12:47 AM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  01:13:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

All I know is that if you obtain either omniscience (dharmakaya) or the sambhogakaya, you automatically obtain the other at the same time.


How exactly do you Know this?

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 13 2009 01:14:22 AM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  02:25:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

All I know is that if you obtain either omniscience (dharmakaya) or the sambhogakaya, you automatically obtain the other at the same time.



In the case of Dharmakaya and Sambogakaya, these are inseparable from the mind's current basis. Dharmakaya is emptiness; sambhogakaya is the continuous radiance. One can quickly notice these as the Clear Light, by sneezing.

Omniscience is conditioned and arises based on the interdependence of one's compassion and aspiration to serve as the liberation of all beings.
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  10:23:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
right I agree that the dharmakaya is one's own mindstream...purified of course

and the Sambogakaya is one's own wisdom lights shining out of the heart chakra via thogal

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 13 2009 10:55:33 AM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  12:14:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

right I agree that the dharmakaya is one's own mindstream...purified of course

and the Sambogakaya is one's own wisdom lights shining out of the heart chakra via thogal



I bow down the Precious Guru Buddha, the Protectors, the lineage and the essence.

It's official. There is Essence Dzogchen just as there is Essence Mahamudra. I've received the transmission from His Eminence Kunsang Dechen Lingpa.

In his words, "The Essence of the Nyingthig" (The Essence of the Heart Essence Path) is as follows:

After meeting the spiritual master and receiving his introductions and instructions, ponder the preliminaries: Karma, Death, Impermanence, Precious Opportunity of Human life, Difficulty in Meeting a Spiritual Master, Unfindable Nature of Mind. Go to an isolated place and do as follows in each session:

1. Aspiration Bodhicitta
2. Action Bodhicitta
3. Guru Yoga: Faith in the teacher and teachings, and make offerings
4. Yoga of Space (Same as Mahamudra, Ultimate Bodhichitta, Emptiness)
5. Dedication Bodhichitta

He stated VERY EXPLICITLY AND PRECISELY: "Cut off all your projections about what you think Dzogpa Chenpo is about. This is the ESSENCE OF THE NYINGTHIG. High students will attain Rainbow Body in three months..."

The import of this is that the essence of the essence of all the teachings in the world is:

Love

Compassion

Direct Introduction to THAT by the Master

Faith in the teachings and teacher

Practice

Dedication
___

Now this reality might be upsetting to some and nourishing to others. Both of you will simply have your faith strengthened. FAITH is what is important. Without faith one cannot receive the blessings of the teacher or the teachings.

If you have faith in the Essence, go practice.

If you have faith in Togal, go practice.

All roads lead home.

Adios.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 13 2009 12:19:43 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  12:29:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
http://drubwangrinpoche.precioustea...sadhana.html

http://drubwangrinpoche.preciousteaching.org/

http://drubwangrinpoche.precioustea...bk201205.pdf

The teaching is Bodhichitta.
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  12:33:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes that is the view, but it has nothing to do with action.

I have no idea why you don't understand this.

How does the view become the method? You are attached to nonattachment.

You can't "practice" essence. Thats an oxymoron.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 13 2009 12:40:15 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  12:42:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Yes that is the view, but it has nothing to do with action.

I have no idea why you don't understand this.




I have no idea.

quote:


How does the view become the method? You are attached to nonattachment.




Talk about oxymoron. You should try it.

quote:


You can't "practice" essence. Thats an oxymoron.



That's the point.

If you don't like it, GO TOWARD THE LIGHTS....

LOL

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 13 2009 12:58:49 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  12:49:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Yes that is the view, but it has nothing to do with action.

I have no idea why you don't understand this.

How does the view become the method? You are attached to nonattachment.

You can't "practice" essence. Thats an oxymoron.



Okay seriously. The View, Practice and Action are inseparable. I am not confused. If you separate them, you are confused. Confusion is actually your problem.

Precise methods are there for you. Then, you will wind up back at the beginning.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 13 2009 12:59:00 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  1:14:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Am I the one who is separating the two?

You constantly make it about essence VERSUS thogal.

Rigpa VERSUS completion stage.

You just said "Go to an isolated place".

LOLLL

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 13 2009 1:32:58 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  1:27:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I really hope you are actually laughing hysterically.

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Am I the one who is separating the two?

You constantly make it about essence VERSUS thogal.

Rigpa VERSUS completion stage.

You just said "Go to an isolated place".

LOLLL



I'm just telling you what the Dzogchen master said is Longchenpa's Nyingthig section called "The Essential Nyingthig."

You don't have to go to an isolated place. Those are Longchenpa's words. He went to great length to discuss the qualities of different kinds of locations. The most important thing is that your practice place should be somewhere you won't be disturbed. Could be a room in your apartment. If you want to attain Rainbow Body in 3 mos or 3 years you probably want to devote all your time to it.

I'm not saying there is a VERSUS relationship. Not at all. Long road, short road. Just walk on it. Ultimately, the whole world becomes your meditation.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 13 2009 1:44:28 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2009 :  7:34:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigdzin_Kumaradza

This guy is an example of the master of the Essence teachings. (Rigjin Kumaraja)
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