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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

Chinna, I do appreciate what you are saying. I think you all misunderstand what this debate between Alwayson and myself was about. It was my attempt to get him to stop reifying a set pattern to buddhahood. My arguments to him were exactly what you are saying to me, that the nature of mind is beyond concepts. His point was the the nature of mind can only be discovered via Togal, which is not a concept, it's a technique of sun gazing. Because I practice Essence Mahamudra, there is no Togal. The practice is Mahamudra, which is also not a concept, it's a technique. Then, we got into a debate about whether Mahamudra is a technique or just another name for Buddhahood. I also tried to get him to understand that in Togal one does not merely relax into shamatha, but one must rest in rigpa, another name for the "natural state"/mahamudra. I was trying to get him to see the way one can look at these practices in a way that transcends the lineages, by taking manifestations as ripa as the path. We had this debate, because he was using the language of the Sakya lineage. I was using the language of the Kagyu lineage. Once we understood each other, we had some discussions over email and the debate was over.

Then, because this discussion between he and I was very technical, from teachings with which you perhaps you are not familiar, some of you became frustrated. I'm sorry about that.

However, Chinna, Christi, I don't reify concepts. I am not engaging in ad hominem attacks. I'm not trying to tell you what to think or act as some kind of authority about what the Buddha really taught.

So Chinna you can stop reifying the concept that people don't need teachers. Maybe Maharshi didn't need one, but I'm sure that's not gonna work for you. If it did, you wouldn't be on the internet, you'd be at your ashram with your wise students. The fact is that almost everyone does need a teacher, and most will not get anywhere by just inquiring into "I am."

Christi can stop reifying the concept that the Buddha was just the man Shakyamuni. There have been numerous buddhas who have lived since then and who live today, and have left excellent methods for the swift attainment of buddhahood, methods that take into account the relative needs of the students with varying levels of capacity, and not some naive, one size fits all, overly simplistic method.

Perhaps you all need to climb outside of your little boxes from Advaita and Theravada and see what the Vajrayana masters have to say and have to teach. Why not? Surely you are not attached to 20 years of conditioning.

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Christi,

Since you studied and practiced Buddhism for such a long time, what do you think about those practices compared to AYP? And do you believe in God?

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Christi,

I am afraid you are reducing Buddhism to New Age "love and light" philosophy. And like typical New Age people, you are extremely judgemental.

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Buddha's teaching is actually pretty hardcore. He used the ability called the Divine Eye (which I am 99.9% sure is the same as Robert Bruce's vision screen, which I DO have VERY BRIEF experience with) to visit the heavens, and many other things.

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Do you believe we plan our lives before being born?

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Originally posted by Christi
Visiting the heavens is cool, but it does not, of itself, bring liberation. More places to go, more people to see... more things to let go of.

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but another purpose of using what I call the vision screen, and what Buddha called the Divine Eye (divya cakkus) is actually to trace reincarnations and karma of oneself and others.

The Buddha was pretty adamant that you could only gain personal experience with reincarnation and karma via the use of this very specific psychic ability.

In other words, some of the major tenets of Buddhism derive solely from the historical Buddha playing around with this particular psychic ability.

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Originally posted by chinna

[quote]Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
I have never suggested that 'people don't need teachers' nor suggested that 'just inquiring into 'I am'' is the only way. My own history didn't follow such a path, either, it was much less easily defined.

We all ultimately find the perfect path for ourselves, the perfect antidote for our weaknesses as much as the perfect vehicle for our strengths. The path focused on complex secrets, hierarchies and empowerments finds a different disciple to the path focused on simplicity, austerity, direct encounter with the absolute, as does the path of immersion in compassionate action with the poorest and the lowest, for example. Each ishta-marga reveals its disciples, simply by what we are attracted to.

Where we are in agreement is that the fastest path is faith. Faith is a great teacher, and eventually 'faith in' becomes just 'faith', indefinable but for our lack of doubt, worry, self-concern. Peace and joy are its hallmarks. And then we are home.

Whether you come quickly or slowly, by a path of showmanship or obscurity, complexity or simplicity, appetite or austerity, authority or experience, where you get to in the end, if you get to the end, is Simplicity Itself.

Peace

chinna

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Originally posted by Christi

Hi Alwayson,

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but another purpose of using what I call the vision screen, and what Buddha called the Divine Eye (divya cakkus) is actually to trace reincarnations and karma of oneself and others.

The Buddha was pretty adamant that you could only gain personal experience with reincarnation and karma via the use of this very specific psychic ability.

In other words, some of the major tenets of Buddhism derive solely from the historical Buddha playing around with this particular psychic ability.

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But there is still no need to speculate over whether it is possible or not, or whether it happens or not. There is something called trikaladrishti, which is the seeing of the three times (which Osel referred to above as omniscience). It is something that comes in one of the higher jana states, when it is possible to see one's own present life, and also one's previous and future lives. Seeing these things does give you a new angle on karma... it opens up the field so to speak. But enlightenment isn't about seeing past and future lives, or about travelling in the heavenly realms, or about understanding how karma works. It is about transcending karma, and realizing the radiant joy and peace of divine freedom.

The historical Buddha taught that freedom comes from transcending the process of being born in each moment, which leads to the transcendence of birth and death altogether. A Buddha, is one who has stopped playing the game.... he/ she is no longer flailing around in the water, but is sitting on the bank, the veil of delusion having been lifted.

Christi

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But there is still no need to speculate over whether it is possible or not, or whether it happens or not. There is something called trikaladrishti, which is the seeing of the three times (which Osel referred to above as omniscience). It is something that comes in one of the higher jana states, when it is possible to see one's own present life, and also one's previous and future lives. Seeing these things does give you a new angle on karma... it opens up the field so to speak. But enlightenment isn't about seeing past and future lives, or about travelling in the heavenly realms, or about understanding how karma works. It is about transcending karma, and realizing the radiant joy and peace of divine freedom.

The historical Buddha taught that freedom comes from transcending the process of being born in each moment, which leads to the transcendence of birth and death altogether. A Buddha, is one who has stopped playing the game.... he/ she is no longer flailing around in the water, but is sitting on the bank, the veil of delusion having been lifted.

Christi




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Your comments don't match up the Buddha's discourse on "The Fruits of the Homeless Life." Perhaps we would all benefit from your comments on that specific Sutta of the Pali Canon

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Originally posted by Christi

Hi Osel,

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But there is still no need to speculate over whether it is possible or not, or whether it happens or not. There is something called trikaladrishti, which is the seeing of the three times (which Osel referred to above as omniscience). It is something that comes in one of the higher jana states, when it is possible to see one's own present life, and also one's previous and future lives. Seeing these things does give you a new angle on karma... it opens up the field so to speak. But enlightenment isn't about seeing past and future lives, or about travelling in the heavenly realms, or about understanding how karma works. It is about transcending karma, and realizing the radiant joy and peace of divine freedom.

The historical Buddha taught that freedom comes from transcending the process of being born in each moment, which leads to the transcendence of birth and death altogether. A Buddha, is one who has stopped playing the game.... he/ she is no longer flailing around in the water, but is sitting on the bank, the veil of delusion having been lifted.

Christi




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Your comments don't match up the Buddha's discourse on "The Fruits of the Homeless Life." Perhaps we would all benefit from your comments on that specific Sutta of the Pali Canon

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In the Samannyaphala sutta (The text you refer to) the seeing of one's own past, present and future lives is described as a fruit of the Holy life. There are many fruits of the completative life described. States of joy and ecstasy are described, as well as many siddhis (supernatural powers). These are all things that may come on the path, but they are not the goal of the path. The goal of the path is enlightenment, which is a never-ending journey.

Christi

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Nice work with the ancient language skills. You are well read with Pali. I hear the message loud and clear, twenty-years and all that.

Where in the Pali Canon does the Buddha say enlightenment is a never-ending journey?

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Originally posted by Christi

Hi Osel,

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Nice work with the ancient language skills. You are well read with Pali. I hear the message loud and clear, twenty-years and all that.

Where in the Pali Canon does the Buddha say enlightenment is a never-ending journey?

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Where in the Cannon does he say that the journey has an end?

Where is he now?

Christi

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

Where does it say it's a journey?

The Buddha is the nature of mind.

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Originally posted by Kirtanman

I also feel moved to share this lyric from the recent song Unity, by Trevor Hall (w/Matisyahu) --

"Love All, Serve All and Create No Sorrow."

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Originally posted by cosmic

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Originally posted by Kirtanman

I also feel moved to share this lyric from the recent song Unity, by Trevor Hall (w/Matisyahu) --

"Love All, Serve All and Create No Sorrow."

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K-Man, thanks for pulling through once again on the Matisyahu front. I wasn't aware of this song til you mentioned it, then found this amazing live performance of it:

Unity Live

Here's another beautiful lyric from it:

"No more you and me. No more they and we. Just Unity"

Peace
cosmic

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Where does it say it's a journey?

The Buddha is the nature of mind.

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