|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
des022
USA
24 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 01 2009 : 11:57:36 PM
|
| I've read this pointer from I guess one the successful people who applied Wallace Wittle's "Science of getting rich" to his own success. Our physical world is a dream world, and it works just like dreaming, but generally slower. Its gotten me thinking and I've been wondering about the nature of our physical world. Is it just a more real version of dreaming? |
|
|
tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 05:32:48 AM
|
It comes down to investigating all these basic questions for ourselves. It is self-inquiry into our true nature and for doing that efficiently, it's best to cultivate inner silence on a daily basis. :)
What is the physical world? What is the dream world? What is their relationship? What is the world without sensory perception? Who am I? .. Our worldview is based on (perhaps implicit) anwers to these questions. That is our current programming, our current setting. By meditating, you'll gradually become conscious of the underlying principles of the cosmos. You'll see more and more of who you are at the deepest level of reality - pure bliss consciousness, unbounded awareness. From there, undivided from it's source, manifest world arises and brings into existence the physical constructs that enable sensory perception. Senses convert the original reality into our perception and create the image of our world.
By meditating, purifying your perception and understanding identified perception, there will emerge a natural state of being when everything is seen to be yourself, but without identifying with any of the parts. It is seen as empty, but also joyous and alive. And maybe not even that. Does that feel like a dream? :) |
 |
|
|
Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 09:56:00 AM
|
Hi Des,
Tadeas has given you a beautiful reply. I really don't have much to add to this.
I will however add something else that I did learn the hard way. It is easy for a person who has had an awakening to say what is said in your post above, and it is important for them to put those words out for people to read. The only thing missing with such words is a Caution: Do not try to understand this with your mind because you are getting further away from the truth once the mind has understood what is being said. There is no way for the mind to get any of this.. it has to be experienced. Well then why is it important for people who have experienced this to share it.. it's a double edged sword.. these perceptions, being beyond the mind are very easy to miss, so knowing there is something like this that could be experienced will help you enjoy it when you do experience it.. but for most, they make up an image, a story of what this perception is going to be like, so when they do experience it, they miss it.. because such experiences are nothing like what the mind could perceive. The best way to deal with such statements.. read them and then tuck them away in your mind somewhere and keep practicing.. don't go looking for a way to make this statement true , just keep up your practice and let the truth be revealed to you.  |
|
|
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 10:36:07 AM
|
I don't believe reality is a dream at all. Pain exists. That leads me to think it is very real.
In fact, lately i have had excess stomach acid and am on medication for it and at this stage it could be anything once further tests are done. But it doesn't feel good. I really don't believe in the "everything is a dream" idea. Certainly not now. |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 1:47:57 PM
|
Nice post Shweta, lot's of good reminders!
quote:
I don't believe reality is a dream at all. Pain exists. That leads me to think it is very real.
Hi gumpi,
Haven't you experienced pain in dreams too? I know I have. |
|
|
|
mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 2:34:46 PM
|
Hi des,
thanks for bringing this eternal question. It's been my question many times too. I've been encountering it on theoretical levels, as well as on experiential levels. Trying to find a solution on both of them complementary has led me closer to be at peace with it.
Let me answer with another question: If the physical world is more real then the world of dreams, what is the most real world?
metta,
Roman |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 2:43:55 PM
|
Hi Gumpi,
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I don't believe reality is a dream at all. Pain exists. That leads me to think it is very real.
I disagree with you on this point Gumpi. I don't have any definitive answers on the nature of "reality" but I do think that pain (and suffering from your pain) are basically what we make of it. Pain is a bodily sensation and we are not our bodies right? And mental pain is only in the mind, hence "mental" pain. So what kind of pain do you think makes this reality "real"? Certainly not spiritual pain! Must be the physical pain that you are talking about. Have you ever met someone with "chronic" pain? I have met a few, and I work with 2 in particular at the Drop In Centre regularly. One takes only Ibuprofen for the pain, and the other takes nothing for the pain. The one that takes Ibuprofen complains about how much pain he is in all the time and is constantly wanting us to help him get perscribed something stronger for the pain. (it's hard for homeless people to get perscriptions) The other one is probably the happiest person I have ever met. I have never heard him complain once although I know from medical records that he has severe back problems stemming from an accident in which he broke his back several years ago. This man, from most people's perspectives, has every right to be a complete ass, be demanding and rude, complain and bitch, but he doesn't. Not in any way. He will go out of his way to do anything he can to help someone else with no regards for himself, and quite honestly this man has become a bit of a teacher for me. To be living in constant pain, but to be as cheerful and loving all day long is truly an inspiration and an encouragement to me. Pain is physical and what this man has taught me is that if youdon't identify with your body so much, the pain actually means very little. As to how to not identify with the body so much, well....You know what to do....practice.
Love,
Carson |
|
|
|
des022
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 5:56:24 PM
|
| For my career, I am a postman. My mom is also a postal rural carrier. Now for me, I put in no real effort to end up in this career and it kind of came about all on its own accord. I did basically nothing except putting in the effort to do try to do my best at the job. It started out as just a part time job on saturdays and developed to the point I was working everyday, and then a year 1/2 ago I got hired into the career side of the city carrier craft. It was actually pretty neat looking back at how all this work came about and into a career and I didnt really do much. Whats interesting is that after I started meditating a couple of months, right after a meditation my supervisor called me and got me a rare 3 month temp job for the city, which basically got me the job in city later. Towards the end of my temp job I got a letter from postal service from the city and got the job which started right after my temp job ended. Now I am happy with my job but the thing is is there is something I would rather be doing. Should I just let nature run its course or make a big career decision switch and try to make it in this other field. |
|
|
|
Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 6:16:06 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by des022
I've read this pointer from I guess one the successful people who applied Wallace Wittle's "Science of getting rich" to his own success. Our physical world is a dream world, and it works just like dreaming, but generally slower. Its gotten me thinking and I've been wondering about the nature of our physical world. Is it just a more real version of dreaming?
High-energy physics paints a picture of the nature of our physical world that can lead one to profound spiritual insights.
What physics tells us is that our physical world is comprised of complex multidimensional interwoven networks of energy, some of which appear to our physical senses as the phenomenon we call "matter".
Energy, at its most fundamental "quantum" levels, is in constant motion, continuously forming unique one-time-only configurations which flourish for a present moment of essentially zero duration and then vanish forever, being instantaneously replaced by ever-so-slightly-different configurations, and so on, and so on.
Matter partakes of that quality of energy, since what we call matter is essentially energy.
Therefore, forms of matter in our physical world do not persist from one present moment to the next. Such forms may appear, on the macro level of human perception, to persist - but the nature of energy indicates that persistence of form is an illusion.
Let's take Mount Everest as an example of a matter-form that appears to persist.
Knowing that every particle in Mount Everest is energy forces us to acknowledge that the Mount Everest you see today is merely a reasonable facsimile of the Mount Everest you saw yesterday - it is not the same Mount Everest.
This means that if you turn your gaze toward Mount Everest, take a good long look at it, then turn your gaze away for a few moments, and then turn your gaze back to Mount Everest again, the Mount Everest you saw before you turned your gaze away is gone forever - you can no longer see that Mount Everest - it has disappeared.
In the dream state, when you look at an object in your dream, then turn your gaze elsewhere in your dream, and then try to turn your gaze back to the dream-object you were looking at in your dream before you averted your gaze, that dream-object has either changed form or disappeared altogether.
The forms in our physical world appear to persist longer than the forms in our dreams, but that's only an appearance.
Persistence of form is an illusion. The physical world is a dream within our shared Self. |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 6:20:18 PM
|
Hi des022,
I had a similar situation. I used to be a full time musician and studio engineer for many years, but when I finally realized this wasn't the "path" for me, a "career" job with GE fell out of the sky. But after two years of working with GE and starting full time AYP meditations about 6 months ago, I realized that this job too was just meant as a transition period for me. Recently I got a part time job (again out of nowhere) at the local homeless and rehab shelter and I am scheduled to start there full time soon, at which point I will quit GE. I don't presume to know what would be best for you, but following you intuition is usually best in my experience. Best of luck and hope this helps a little.
Love,
Carson |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 8:36:48 PM
|
Yes reality is just a certain class of dream. like Suryakant said, forms seem to persist longer. Also in a sleeping dream, there is usually missing a congruent progression of time. in real life, we can follow time from one moment to the next all day long, but in a sleeping dream you usually don't do this.
But about Gumpy's saying it feels too real; you think the computer keyboard is real because when you push on keys they push back in a certain shape and resistance.
but this sensation is just a certain pattern of electrical impulses sent to your brain, which coincide with the visual electrical impulses sent to your brain.
If your brain were to receive the exact same electrical pulses without the computer being there, you would think there was a computer there. This is the future of video games, and virtual reality. We already have pioneered simulated visual impulses sent artificially to the optic nerves for blind people. And prosthetic limbs tap into nerve impulses and move limbs that have no flesh and bones.
These are methods of sending information both into and out of the brain to reality.
As soon as interfaces are perfected between computers to the brain, artificial realities will feel completely real.
This is already experienced by "crazy" people; experiencing things that aren't there to other people in the same room. The only difference is in the input we receive from our senses. Why is it that we say the crazy person is wrong? Because the majority agree that they don't sense what he does. So the nature of reality is an agreement about what is really there.
But if everyone always experienced the same thing in the same situation, there would never be arguments about what really happened. Since there are always disagreements about what really happened, we can surmise that reality is constantly changing, and/or different people are sensing it differently. I think both. If you leave your house on vacation, it has an unfamiliar feel to it when you get back, even though nothing has changed.
So, reality is a kind of dream, changing all the time, and people disagreeing about what's really there, and only perceiving it through our imperfect senses. What unifies people's perception of it
is constant communication, which is throwing back and forth descriptions of what is out there, and negotiating differences in our perception.
This is one reason sitting in isolation gives you a different perception of reality; you have stopped sensory input and discussions of what reality is, hence you have stepped out of the agreement process. This is why returning to daily activity is good in between meditation; because communication with others is what it's all about. We are here to connect with other people, and what we call reality is a sort of dream, because it is not absolute, and appears to change as our perception changes. |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2009 : 9:20:14 PM
|
[quote]Persistence of form is an illusion. The physical world is a dream within our shared Self.[quote]
I think that even to consider that we are able to dream the creation of the universe is very arrogant. You have to return to the creation of the universe at a point when everything and nothing co-existed, at no size and infinite dimension. Until the moment of creation.
By all means stare at the stars but watch where you put your feet. That we understand something of physical matter, quantum physics, particle physics etc. That we know that everything is vibration and energy does not alter the simple laws that act upon us. Considering otherwise simply pulls the wool over our own eyes and leaves us ignorant.
The OP has mentioned successful people and 'the science of getting rich'. It is within our power to influence things and people, it is simple cause and effect, there are no secrets other than that of total self belief. You simply stand a far better chance if you believe you can succeed......something refered to as 'acting as if' in NLP parlance. This gets broken down further into 'projection is perception' and 'there is no failure only feedback' which is the same thing really as total self belief, you project your success to others and they pick up on it, you consider any setback a simple learning experience to enable better results the next time.
Many of the concepts of books like 'the science of getting rich' or 'the secret' are based on a bit of magic and mystery. it fools people into thinking that simply to dream is to manifest the dream and so by that very premise, the whole of nature should be controllable by the same simple mechanism. Well that's certainly what King Canut thought 
I actually work in the environment of coaching clients to achieve goals, many do believe that by simply thinking they will be millionaires, that it will happen. It's like thinking that you might run the four minute mile simply by thinking it is so. Well, you will enhance your chance of doing so, but if you dont get up off the couch and start training then the likelyhood is zero. Now, I might be wrong, but so far, despite lots of willing, self belief, books, potoons and therapies.....those that dont get off their butts generally dont do as well as they hoped. It's not an illusion it is a delusion.
Train and practise at meditation and find the true keys, but it does require comittment and actually doing the work.
|
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2009 : 9:46:54 PM
|
Yes well put. Learning to believe your dreams can come true is important only because it stops self sabotage, not because it creates magic.
If you are totally full of self sabotage, it may seem like magic!
Then working toward your dreams as a labor of love completes the picture.
Many people find they don't love the process involved in attaining their dreams, and that's why they wanted to create them from magic.
Then to succeed they must create new dreams that can result from doing things they love.
Like the guy who wants to be rich so he can sit in a boat all day and fish. But he doesn't like making money; he just likes fishing. |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2009 : 07:39:53 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Yes well put. Learning to believe your dreams can come true is important only because it stops self sabotage, not because it creates magic.
If you are totally full of self sabotage, it may seem like magic!
Then working toward your dreams as a labor of love completes the picture.
Many people find they don't love the process involved in attaining their dreams, and that's why they wanted to create them from magic.
Then to succeed they must create new dreams that can result from doing things they love.
Like the guy who wants to be rich so he can sit in a boat all day and fish. But he doesn't like making money; he just likes fishing.
Exactly right and in some ways it is worse than that. Not only can their personal value system have values that do not move them towards a goal (as in prefers fishing to making money), it can also be the case that they have conflict about what they want (somedays I think I should be making money and sometimes I feel it is wrong to make money), or a limiting belief around what is possible for them ( I really like what money does and would like x amount but I dont think I will ever manage it because none of our family have ever done well). |
|
|
|
yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2009 : 6:17:50 PM
|
quote:
Karl wrote:
Train and practise at meditation and find the true keys, but it does require comittment and actually doing the work.
For anybody who is interested, a lot of what you guys are talking about its covered by Yogani in his book on Bhakti and Karma Yoga.
Best, yb. |
|
|
|
Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 2:54:49 PM
|
Shanti, thanks for your caution. I have fallen into that a bit before (torturing myself by trying to understand this with my mind), pulled back, and only then did I get the random glimpse. Thank you for the reminder.
It surely is true, though, and good for me, because I am going through painful times right now. I am taking it too seriously, I just need to take things seriously enough to get things done, but not so much that I feel stress. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
nature of our physical world
