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Originally posted by Jo-self

Good questions. But, the possible negative aspects of charisma are present even in ordinary relationships such as how some people will stay in abusive relationships and still profess love. Something deep is happening. I guess that is what the millions on psychology studies are about, no simple answers yet.

The Wikipedia article on charisma is very good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma

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Originally posted by Etherfish

I think it is something that can be learned, and I have met people who have learned it, although I think the ethics are questionable. You can understand it if you read about Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) and covert hypnosis on the web.
Also it has to do with having no doubt that you are right, and expressing yourself emotionally. This can also be reached from a spiritual perspective.

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Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Neli,

Nice topic...something well worth discussing I think.

Personally I think that the positive charisma you are talking about is most likely divinely inspired. No ego necessary. The negative charisma you are talking about is what I believe Etherfish is refering to when he speaks of charisma being learned. This type of charisma requires much intellect and ego and is directed down it's path purely by human intention. That human intention CAN be good, but it will always end badly I fear, as these people end up becoming "pop-guru's" (for lack of a better term) who's lives are under total scrutiny and are destined to be revealed as what they truly are...human. And fallible. I think charisma can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

Love,
Carson

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Originally posted by gumpi

He was an angry speaker and orator before he had a doctor though, i think.

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Originally posted by Etherfish

It's mob psychology, he didn't brainwash a nation, he united them. They were a nation full of problems and emotions, and he stirred up those emotions and offered a solution to those problems. Unfortunately he united them against another group and people were so emotionally caught up they did not stop and think about compassion.

By the way, the atrocities committed were hidden from the vast majority of the people, most of the time. There are very similar things happening now and most people are not aware of it. People get shocked by a lot of problems at the same time, start blaming each other, then you give different levels different stories, and they think nobody knows the truth but them. The cause is instilling fear in people instead of peace. The solution is instilling peace in people which is done as an individual effort like meditating twice a day!

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Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Neli,

I disagree that Hitler's charisma was natural. He was injecting methamphetamine daily and I know from personal experience that that will boost anyone's charisma!! He may have had a natural talent for public speaking, but I think he knew what he was doing and had to work for the approval he got from his country.

Love,
Carson

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Originally posted by Etherfish

I don't think we are helpless around charismatic people. People choose to follow them. you can watch this on a local level wherever you go. There is always some guy or girl everyone loves. you can also easily analyze why if you watch them.
If you watch professional wrestling you can see exactly what is happening. Somebody behind the scenes chooses the "good guy" and the "bad guy", and sets up circumstances to reinforce that image. Mobs of people love to all feel the same thing at the same time. That's what rock stars are about. They give people something to feel together. If you study NLP you can understand it. You can easily learn to use this to improve communication in your own life. It's not a mystery; it is "new technology" that is not used or understood by most people.

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Originally posted by 1cleverPretense

Hi Neli,

Thanks for another interesting topic. About eight years ago I attended a lecture at the simon wiesanthal here in l.a. that included a couple of speakers. All I remember from that event was this rabbi from Pittsburgh and the gist of a couple sentences which stuck a chord within me for some reason. It went something like this: The majority of the world perceive power as the ability to control over external factors while in spiritual context true power seems to be control over the inner states of the self. This is why I think a person would be attracted to what you're describing as charismatic energy. In my view the power I may attribute to any person, situation or thing ultimately is my own being projected outward as something which I feel and falsely believe to be lacking in myself. So I guess it can seem to me that the person has a magical attractive quality when in fact it is my perception that may need adjustment. Taking the example of Hitler, we may have to consider his beginnings and eventual rise (and fall) in terms of the historical, cultural and psychological states of the environment in which it occurred. That may shed some more light on the hows and whys of almost an entire nation (always expect the exceptions) being caught up in a huge tide of such extreme patriotic nationalism which led to so much harm for all involved.

The inner workings of a human is a complex thing seems to me. And it gets even more complicated in groups of people with a culture, history, and morale..

From personal experience I can say that the qualities of firm conviction in self confidence of abilities has attracted me a few times to people which later I came to regret. I came to see that the one with the "charisma" also has his/her needs and wants just like you and me. Except the harmful ones will usually choose to gratify these at the expense of their followers' welfare and dignity. It is pure manipulation that we are dealing with here. In their minds' they may believe to be absolutely justified in their actions (ends justifying means, etc, etc).

So is it an energy? I tend to view mental and emotional states as forces which certainly can and most of the time do affect me. K, mental, emotional, psychological, spiritual, Shakti, Pranic, Etheric all seem to be labels to help us describe somethings intangible yet undeniable. But ultimately I don't hold the view that it is exclusively a one-way channel and that as people increasing in awareness of life there is no need to see ourselves as defenseless or helpless. That being said you are getting sleepy, sleepy and are having an overwhelming desire to transfer all your worldly belongings directly to me..

Along the same lines these books may be interesting reading: Political Ponerology (Lobaczewski), Seductive Poison (Layton) and Without Conscience (Hare).


PS - Carson, I have also heard of Hitler's amphetamine usage. Also, have you heard of the Nazi scientists' development of what they called Adolfine at the time which was later further refined to what we now call Methadone or something similar??

Be Well

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Originally posted by 1cleverPretense

I appreciate the informative response. I have seen a couple of people detoxing off of that drug. Needless to say, it's nothing even remotely resembling fun. One was a musician acquaintance who had been on a large daily dose since the late seventies and when I saw him kick it was 2000. He finally managed to go to what we would deem as sleep for a full four hours only after 26 days. And he had harsh flu-like symptoms for about 2 1/2 months. An amazingly difficult kick. An amazingly sinister chemical if ingested long enough.

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Originally posted by 1cleverPretense

Hi Neli,

Yes, it is hard to fully understand it. I can only go from personal experience and information I've come across so far. There is such vastness to life and all of its manifestations that it truly inspires awe. But simultaneously it seems simple as well kind of like a flower. It makes me glad to remember that I am a part of it all.

Enjoy the holidays.

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