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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 08:01:01 AM
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| Some people believe we are all incarnations of God in human form. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 10:48:01 AM
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Hey, Neptune, yogani was attributing avatars to that of a new phenomenon of redefining the self that has evolved since the inception of the viritual community:
quote:
Authoring the Self: Identity and Role-Playing in Virtual Communities.
As thousands upon thousands of people are daily inter-relating in avatar-based virtual communities, they are beginning to break down the old definitions of identity and self. Not only do they inhabit many identities that are each authentic in a particular context, but they also soon realize that identity itself is a dynamic construct that, like a leash, can be pulled in tight or given generous slack. In this way, one does not have to choose between the extremes of either playing a role or strictly being oneself, but instead can meander through identity space of this role of the self.
Our modern world has forced us all to each inhabit many roles in the course of the daily life -- with multiple business cards, emails, domain names and titles that are associated with each of them. Virtual communities have taken this newly discovered need for multiple and differing identities and exploded the boundaries to the point where authoring the self is blurring the lines between non-fiction and fiction.
http://www.dipaola.org/sig00/web/notes.html
Although the above article is specifically related to the internet community, we can see that there is a real inherent need for self expression that is being played out in the fictional world of the internet, that is coming from the non-ficictional world of who we are as people.
People today no longer have to face the ridicule of religious ideology and political pressure to conform to a certain set of standards based on other people's view of what's considered normal/reality, whether individual or collective.
So I consider this a great thing, whether lines of reality are sometimes blurred here and there it shows a sign of progress within the world today.
Back in ancient times it was necessary to hide things in allegory or symbolism. An avatar was a person with multiple heads, holding various symbolic representations of the spiritual experience to fit the need of the culture. In the times of Moses, sexual energy, was a rod (sushumna) and snake that gobbled up the other snakes of the pharoah (ida and pingala). In the times of Christ it was the son of man that needed to be lifted up, just like this same snake of Moses time. Christ actually says, 'the son of man needs to be lifted up, just like the serpent in the desert. In Krishna's time the sushuman (the spinal nerve that yogani references) was symbolized as a flute, the air holes being the latent poteniality (attributes: bliss, love, faith, etc.) that are added to the universal body - contained with the silent vortex of chakras.
So we can understand that classical definition of avatar is open to interpretation, just as descent and ascent. yogani is using his teachings to show people that silece is available to all. But it's not that he is using these definitions to limit people or is bending reality to fit his personal perspective. But he is saying two things, simutaneously. One, silence is simple to attain 'it's just a mantra away', it's ordinary. Two, silence is also extrodinary, since there is an latent, inherent attribute contained within this silence; bliss, knowningness, love, or what have you. He was demonstrating the paradox of extrodinary experience and also the practicality/ordinariness of expression - and also showing that it's better not to get attached to the expereince, since the AYP method is to favor practice and not symptoms of purification. Although, some of my symptoms I consider who I am. So it's also being able to say this, too, even if it conflicts with yogani's perception. He doesn't care, but he has a specific teaching that works. And if we're adding our expereinces to the pot, it's fine, but he just puts it into other spirtual practices. You know the saying, 'there are as many paths to God as there are breaths'.
Anyway, I just wanted to add this, since I'm the one who mentioned the term avatar from the website listed, to show that there is a wide variance of what this means to many people, as Etherfish added another definition that is listed at wikipedia.
Anyway, I enjoy your perceptions, Neptune, and I hope that you continue to contribute. The same goes with you, Ananda and Christi, and I wasn't ignoring your question, Ananda, but it's really not up to me to tell you who you are, not really, but you know that I feel that you're a great person and I enjoy your posts. So, I wanted this to play out a little more before I offered my understanding on the topic, however limited.
Take care:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Nov 26 2008 11:36:47 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 10:53:20 AM
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Hi Neptune,
quote:
Hi Christi and Yogani,
I think this is all semantics. The idea is this: a particular term in a language has an agreed upon meaning. The reason for that is so we can all communicate using words and kind of avoid confusion when we talk to each other. Or you can say like some politician said "That all depends on what the definition of is, is."
And you can rewrite your own dictionary and make up new definitions if you want. And the meaning of words does change in common usage like the term avatar as is now being applied to computer generated images on video games I suppose.
But on the other hand, I do think it's appropriate to adhere to the commonly accepted meaning of words in use today.
That said, I still am just expressing what the majority of people understand when someone says the word Avatar. This is just an issue about language not about avatars.
so I sense you want to redefine that term, and I'm OK with that. It's your website not mine. I'm just a visitor.
I'm not sure why you seem to have an axe to grind on this issue.
The question as to how many times God has descended as Man, like Jesus and Krishna to help mankind, is a little like debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.
I don't think either I, or Yogani are redefining anything here, just reminding people about what the word actually means in yoga, and not what the common myths about the word are. Do you think we should all say that God is a man with a grey beard who lives in the sky, if that is what most people think it means?
It is useful to know what an avatar is, especially when you meet one. That and the fact that the future of humanity may well depend on them.
Christi
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 11:01:47 AM
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Hi Ether,
quote:
Some people believe we are all incarnations of God in human form.
We are all incarnations of God in human form ... after all, what else could we be?
It's just that some among us have remembered that, and others among us have not remembered that yet.
Very advaita 
Christi |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 2:13:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Some people believe we are all incarnations of God in human form.
and realizing it each day more by more.
thk you my dear friend Ether for the nice post.
and thks Vil, you have been a good friend since i first came here i appreciate that a lot.
and i support you Christy and yogani all the way, thk you for putting out the definition of the word this way.
this is a kinder and better explanation for it and not so much limiting to us humans like the traditional one.
namaste,
Ananda |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 7:18:53 PM
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| Hi Neptune, I'm new! Why do you care about the name of the state you're in? You are not traveling. You are already there. I must congratulate you. Your experience was that of selflessness. You are very near the end. You must approach this state more to stabilize it. Don't get it mixed up. It is not a Self. If you had a sense of Self, keep looking, and let that misconception pass away. This is the state beyond concepts so let these names go; they don't help you. What will help you is continuation of not-doing, not-seeking, not "I-am-ing." The mind drops are settling, collecting and condensing. Please, continue in this state so that it may stabilize. Once stabilized, you will accept. This is Supreme Selflessness; it will only continue if you relinquish all claims all grasping at and clinging onto the fictional illusory idea of Self. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2008 : 12:50:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
Besides what difference does it make? It;s pretty dualistic to talk about God descending and becoming Man or Woman to help the Human race. It doesn't square with Advaita at all. The whole concept of avatars is kind of stupid and irrelevant to us yogis sitting on our cushions and trying to open our hearts and just to be able to help each other. That's all that matters. The proof is in that pudding.
Neptune! You're right. More on that subject when I'm on typing with one thumb.
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2008 : 04:05:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
I was at a Buddhist meditation retreat for 4 days last week, and progressed well at staying aware of the breath in sitting meditations, not being distracted off the awareness of the breath for entire 45 minute sittings. Over the course of this retreat, during the sitting meditations, I would cease to exist. I was no longer aware of the body, the breath, or any bodily sensations, and would disappear to the senses completely for an entire 45 minute sitting, only to be brought back to duality by the bell rung at the end of sittings. It was as if time stopped, because there was no awareness of time. I could have been in this state for a minute though the clock showed it was 40 minutes. I was sitting, and no head bobbling nor snoring according to my companion sitting next to me during the retreat. I don't think it was sleep. So what is this state? Is it Nirvikalpa samadhi? Can anyne tell me? Christi?
thanks,
neptune
Neptune, I am very interested in how you reached this state. Can you review the process you went through, please? You mentioned that you "ceased to exist." Can you describe that feeling, aside from no time? I'm particularly interested in the details of your instructions. Thank you. |
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 02:28:47 AM
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There has been a progression. I started out in 2001 with Vipassana meditation, jump started into this with numerous 3 day retreats. Then the kundalini started up spontaneously on one of those early retreats in around 2002, seemingly without any obstructions or blockages. Maybe because I had never heard of kundalini and was just sitting on the cushion concerned with self exploration of thoughts and emotions and returning to awareness on the breath.
But when the energy started to show itself, I started building on that as well, and my Buddhist teacher was concerned about my going off on a tangent for the last six years into the world of yogic energy development. I'm steamy hot with it. Things like yoni mudra, dynamic chin pump and advanced kechari mudra practices have tremendous energetic effects. Shakti rising.
But the Buddhist meditation totally ignores the Shakti, and you might say Lord Shiva, sits meditating in undisturbed awareness. That for me is the beauty of Buddhist meditation. It tolerates and does not have an orgy of involvemnt with the Shakti. It sits in calm abiding. Shakti can be wild or asleep. Shiva doesn't attach to nor push away.
But then something marvelous happens. A chemical reaction and a neurological series of changes take place, and out of the fusion of Shakti and Shiva, there is Everything, and there is Nothing.
The way I see it, the abiding Golden light in duality consciousness is Salvikalpa samadhi. But then deeper yet, in the total stillness of deep meditation, especially on retreat, Shiva consciousness becomes so darn single minded that everything stops and ceases to exist. Time stops, body consciousness is overwhelmed into the Void of Sunyata, Nonduality, no personal consciousness, no pain in the back nor awareness of anything, not even the breath. A temporary death of the individual. This has got to be what they refer to as Nirvikalpa samadhi. It shows that yoga and Buddhist practices are leading to the same non place. But words fall short of the target. My words are just a pointing in the vague direction. That's just my take on it. I think Siva totally depends on Shakti for this total abandonment into Nothingness, and then because we are flesh and blood human beings we return from that but there's no going back to what we were before. This is a new dawn, a chemical neurologic transformation. But I need to be sparing with talking about this. Talk is dangerous, and what happened is nothing special. Nothing's special. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 10:23:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
There has been a progression. I started out in 2001 with Vipassana meditation, jump started into this with numerous 3 day retreats. Then the kundalini started up spontaneously on one of those early retreats in around 2002, seemingly without any obstructions or blockages. Maybe because I had never heard of kundalini and was just sitting on the cushion concerned with self exploration of thoughts and emotions and returning to awareness on the breath.
But when the energy started to show itself, I started building on that as well, and my Buddhist teacher was concerned about my going off on a tangent for the last six years into the world of yogic energy development. I'm steamy hot with it. Things like yoni mudra, dynamic chin pump and advanced kechari mudra practices have tremendous energetic effects. Shakti rising.
But the Buddhist meditation totally ignores the Shakti, and you might say Lord Shiva, sits meditating in undisturbed awareness. That for me is the beauty of Buddhist meditation. It tolerates and does not have an orgy of involvemnt with the Shakti. It sits in calm abiding. Shakti can be wild or asleep. Shiva doesn't attach to nor push away.
But then something marvelous happens. A chemical reaction and a neurological series of changes take place, and out of the fusion of Shakti and Shiva, there is Everything, and there is Nothing.
The way I see it, the abiding Golden light in duality consciousness is Salvikalpa samadhi. But then deeper yet, in the total stillness of deep meditation, especially on retreat, Shiva consciousness becomes so darn single minded that everything stops and ceases to exist. Time stops, body consciousness is overwhelmed into the Void of Sunyata, Nonduality, no personal consciousness, no pain in the back nor awareness of anything, not even the breath. A temporary death of the individual. This has got to be what they refer to as Nirvikalpa samadhi. It shows that yoga and Buddhist practices are leading to the same non place. But words fall short of the target. My words are just a pointing in the vague direction. That's just my take on it. I think Siva totally depends on Shakti for this total abandonment into Nothingness, and then because we are flesh and blood human beings we return from that but there's no going back to what we were before. This is a new dawn, a chemical neurologic transformation. But I need to be sparing with talking about this. Talk is dangerous, and what happened is nothing special. Nothing's special.
Hello Neptune,
So it was Vipassana meditation led you to pranayama and asana, which led you back to vipassana, which led you into deeper samadhi than ever before. This is quite good. Quite good indeed. I'm very happy for you. Namasteji.
Please tell us, how do you feel? How does your body feel? How does the world feel? How does your mind feel? Are you able to integrate this experience into your life? Does it provide you with insight into your relationships, your work, your daily routine? Do you have insight into who you were or what you will become? How do you identify now? Are things at all disrupted?
Thank you,
Surrender |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Dec 02 2008 10:33:57 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 10:59:54 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 12:43:43 PM
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Forum administrator thinks that I had a milestone huh?
Let me say this: I guess my objection to the whole concept of a spiritual milestone, is that there can be no achievements in spiritual life. And the concept of a milestone implies having achieved something. So it seems a little like a slap in the face to be told one has achieved something spiritually. I understand the intention with setting up a category of this sort, but now that I have been pigeonholed in this way, it seems to somehow cheapen any grace that has been my good fortune to have received. It doesn't seem to respect the sacredness of spiritual practice somehow. You can't place a yardstick and measure that of the spirit and say that something was achieved. It smacks of spiritual materialism. I want to go away from this website as a result of your implications. Whether I need to do so I am not yet sure. |
Edited by - Neptune on Dec 03 2008 07:10:14 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 12:57:33 PM
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Forum administrator thinks that I had a milestone huh?
Don't worry. Nirvikalpa samadhi is considered a milestone by some; so the question 'is this Nirvikalpa samadhi' is material for this forum, regardless of whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no'. The administrator has not by any means expressed an implicit opinion that the answer is 'yes' by placing it here.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 02 2008 1:00:14 PM |
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 1:10:55 PM
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| OK David. Speaking of milestones, I would like to seriously recommend folks get into advanced kechari mudra whatever it takes. That's the measurable milestone that you can't ignore. Have you tried that David? It's...dynamite. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 1:33:30 PM
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Yes, I tried it. I found it great -- I wrote quite a bit about it, a lot of it practical, about the snipping.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2008 : 2:42:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
OK David. Speaking of milestones, I would like to seriously recommend folks get into advanced kechari mudra whatever it takes. That's the measurable milestone that you can't ignore. Have you tried that David? It's...dynamite.
i second that, after ketchari all the practices become dynamite...
(i recommend it as well to be achieved by whatever it takes, between the common sense that is) |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2008 : 1:35:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
OK David. Speaking of milestones, I would like to seriously recommend folks get into advanced kechari mudra whatever it takes. That's the measurable milestone that you can't ignore. Have you tried that David? It's...dynamite.
i second that, after ketchari all the practices become dynamite...
(i recommend it as well to be achieved by whatever it takes, between the common sense that is)
Did you snip it? |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2008 : 3:50:38 PM
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nope, i used talvia kriya plus the pushing back technique and achieved all the stages in a period which actually surprised me in comparison to the period i read it would take.
but there definitely was some heavy snipping going on in the frenum due to the pushing back technique (talvia kriya wasn't that great, the pushing back did all the difference).
and the habit of the tongue going back to the roof was there long b4 due to other practices 4 years back where i did ketchari stage 1 (without knowing it's name at that time) during practicing a couple of reiki techniques some from the falun dafa tradition and others i was taught from a friend of mine who was following a very famous tradition concerning reiki too bad i can't remember the name of it's teacher now.
and to be honest if i didn't achieve it via that way, i would've definitely done snipping cz i was like mad crazy about achieving it.
Ananda |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2008 : 11:54:04 AM
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Dear themysticseeker and Neptune,
I have just read some of your posts and resonate with what you are saying.
mysticseeker, Could you tell us what your Path has been or is that stated somewhere already? Just wondering since you asked Neptune.
Thanks for your time,
Jill |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2008 : 8:33:18 PM
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| sorry i asked about nirvikalpa samadhi. i am beginning to see there are multiple levels of samadhi both of the samadhi with seed and that without seed. and whoever said that naming states of consciousness is irrelevant is right. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2008 : 9:26:51 PM
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Hey, Neptune, don't become another person's doormat like I was doing, apologizing all over the place when I was speaking from my heart. This is something that david taught me recently. That it's okay to have an ego as long as we're Advaita Yogi. That's right, david, I was listening.
Take care:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 05 2008 9:58:54 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2008 : 03:34:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
sorry i asked about nirvikalpa samadhi. i am beginning to see there are multiple levels of samadhi both of the samadhi with seed and that without seed. and whoever said that naming states of consciousness is irrelevant is right.
why are you saying you're sorry my friend, there's no need to.
we should all be thanking you for the giving us the opportunity of being witness to this beautiful discussion.
kindest regards,
Ananda |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2008 : 09:38:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
sorry i asked about nirvikalpa samadhi. i am beginning to see there are multiple levels of samadhi both of the samadhi with seed and that without seed. and whoever said that naming states of consciousness is irrelevant is right.
Neptune, IMHO, the important thing is that you felt as if you "ceased to exist." I believe this is the crucial understanding for you to integrate into your life. This is not passing level like Super Mario Brothers. Along the path, you "see things." You saw your "self" cease to exist "at some level." If I could draw out more details of your experience at the time of and after this "seeing" I think it would benefit everyone. Don't worry about does it fit this definition or that definition. Feeling alive, awake and alert but not as "Neptune" is a big deal. How did you identify, if at all? What was in your field of awareness? These are the crucial points for you to address in your heart. Once the seeing takes place, the next more difficult step is integrating that knowledge into your heart and mind. These shifts in perspective can be jarring. Talking it through is what you must do. Don't rush to cling to names, forms or practices that produce some juice. Your experience is indeed a milestone; be brave. As you saw, you are just fine as not "Neptune," perhaps even better. Now, relax slightly more to allow your vision to ease back into that state so you can shed some light on it. |
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2008 : 8:37:30 PM
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Hi TMS and all,
You want to know about all perceptions ceasing to exist.
Nothing to say. It just does. Then later, you are back again having thoughts, again aware of your body, that your back hurts, and that time has passed in a wink without your knowing. And you are thinking again.
How this occurred for me is through self enquiry on Buddhist, meditative retreats. It was a very purifying process like being burned up. It was and is still the hardest work I know. You get back from a 3 day or a one week retreat at a retreat center and people ask you how your vacation was! All you can think is that you are exhausted and glad to be home, but it´s terribly crucial and beneficial. To be ripped away from all your routines and your computer, and your family, and the newpapers, and so on.
And the end product of these retreats is just one thing really, ultimately. It is realizing how absolutely primary one goal has become for you: To be kind. To be kind to yourself first. To accept all your strange little foibles and wierdnesses and failings. <Not repudiate those, but the opposite, to sit with those things.
And secondly, to be kind to everyone as well as yourself. That´s the tangible milestone. To be incredibly kind and caring. That´s the upshot and product. Proof you are going in the right direction.
Beyond all that I think the yoga practices recommended here are fabulous, especially khechari mudra and yoni mudra, and dynamic chin pump. But I´´ tell you something: there is no substitute for the really work that has to get done. And for me that has been and is, self enquiry. It´d be real nice if I could do that without going off on these meditation retreats, but for me there is no substitute. For me the mind or ego is incredibly tricky and capable of pulling the wool over my eyes time and again. I just have to get away from every day responsibilites to get the job done and it is a work in progress. I realize Yogani and Christi will say you don´t need to do this. And I respect their opinion, but I´m telling you, I totally disagree with that. Going off on a meditation retreat periodically is absolutely crucial for self enquiry. The mind is just too tricky to do this work at home.
I would recommend going off to the forest like retreat center in your area and sit a few retreats for yourself. Sit for 45 minutes, walking meditation for 30, then another 45 on the cushion. All day long. It´s dynamite. But it´s hard work. But it´s time well spent.
One disclaimer though. I am practicing outside and beyond the purview of Yogani´s recommended practices. I do his practices too, but not exclusively. Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. |
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Is this Nirvikalpa Samadhi?
