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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 15 2008 : 12:03:38 PM
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I've read and corresponded with people who say that Kriya yoga enables the heart rate to drop considerably, along with prolonged states of breathlessness.
Apparently, khechari mudra has a lot to do with this.
So my question is really quite simple (and i have been racking my brains trying to figure this out) - how does yoga reduce the heart rate exactly?
There must be physical explanations of this, not just some mystical mumbo jumbo about prana.
Let's try to get to the bottom of this and understand it.
What else may be involved? What do chakras have to do with it? |
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Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2008 : 2:42:21 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Leaving chakras, prana, and other yogic terminology out isn't a problem at all if you want to know the physical explanation, atleast as it's currently understood. The simplest explanation is the training and building up of the parasympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system.
The autonomic nervous system consists of 2 major divisions : the parasympathetic and the sympathetic. The parasympathetic system produces effects that can be grouped as rest, repair, digest, and relax. The sympathetic system is known as the fight or flight response and is the one that sends the heart rate soaring along with the tensing of muscles and faster, shallower breathing that accompany the body's response to a real or perceived danger.
The autonomic nervous system was once thought to be beyond the control of humans and thus "automatic", however, researchers found that monks, etc.... in the east were clearly displaying greater control than previously imagined by the west. As far as the levers of control, just refer to the 8 limbs of yoga for a quick crash course. The breath really was the focus for most of the research but meditation, asanas, as well as components of other limbs are going to lead the person to better balance between the para/symp branches and the resulting effects on heart rate, breath rate, digestion, etc.... Check out Dr. Herbert Benson's book, the relaxation response, for more info.
The effects on the autonomic system was the initial focus but lately cognitive neuroscientists are utilizing new technology (fmri, spect....) to see the changes in the brain as well. For the interested, check out the google tech talks on youtube. Jon Kabat-zinn and other leading authorities discuss techniques as well as research involving mindfulness in plain english.
take care,
Eitherway
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Propundit
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 10:22:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I've read and corresponded with people who say that Kriya yoga enables the heart rate to drop considerably, along with prolonged states of breathlessness.
Apparently, khechari mudra has a lot to do with this.
So my question is really quite simple (and i have been racking my brains trying to figure this out) - how does yoga reduce the heart rate exactly?
There must be physical explanations of this, not just some mystical mumbo jumbo about prana.
Let's try to get to the bottom of this and understand it.
What else may be involved? What do chakras have to do with it?
There's no doubt that there is a physiological base to yoga, meditation and pranayama practices. But can we reduce these practices entirely to scientific physiology? I think not.
Meditation and pranayama involve various metaphors. Some of that comes from the fact that they developed within various religious or philosophical schools. But these practices are also inherently subjective, where the subject is the self. Rather than objectively manipulating an object in a test-tube, the method depends on experimenting with the inside of the self.
In the way of metaphors: In some of the AYP audiobooks, there is talk of 'purification' - when I hear this, I personally understand it as 'training' ... the various exercises in a practice lead a person to develop their abilities. I know that yoga has developed from a philosophical school that was interested in developing the person in many dimensions (physical, emotional, ethical, etc) and the physical dimension was seen as only a starting point - so I can accept the idea of 'purification' as valuable too.
Back to the role of science: In the same way that a musician trains to play certain songs with an instrument, one can develop the ability to play the human body in a new way, which has a slower (heart) beat, more harmonious breathing, and changes in the nervous system. Does science really understand music? They can say things about a tone that has a certain frequency, or describe mathematical patterns in a symphony. But does that explain the human experience of making or listening to music?? Can science tell us what we should consider beautiful, joyful, or good?
We could also compare yoga practices to exercise. On one hand, it is good to understand something about the physiology of exercise - aerobic vs anaerobic, different muscle fibers, ATP, lactate, etc. Sometimes this knowledge can be helpful. But for most people, the important part is finding a reasonable exercise program and sticking to it. Even if someone understands exercise only subjectively or has some ideas that are not scientific, they can still get the benefits. It may be better for most people to simply have a few rules like "exercise moderately several times a week" and "listen to your body and pull back if you feel bad" than to study exercise physiology. I submit that the same is true of yogic practices. Delve into physiology if it interests you, but do not try to reduce yoga to physiology - like music and exercise, yoga cannot be reduced entirely to objective science.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 12:48:21 PM
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The trouble with this view is that i don't think science is a "thing" like some rigid belief system. Science is simply a method of discovering reality as it is. Why rule out science as pertaining to the alleged existence of prana being discovered in the future? Someday science may discover prana and then people will be saying, "how do you explain happiness?" and so on. Bashing science doesn't cut it for me at all.
The whole point of science is to establish objective facts that can be verified by anyone who bothers to test it. Yoga should be exactly the same. And yet it is not. Yoga is an art, like learning a musical instrument and yet people try to make out as if it is a science. It is NOT A SCIENCE. And i think this is dangerous. Look at all the people on this forum having spiritual experiences. No two experiences are identical, some are similar but that is it. For those who are having no spiritual experiences no amount of "yoga is a science" will hold water. The real question is this: why are some people having these experiences and other people are not?
It is like the existence of ghosts. I have never seen a ghost or experienced a ghost. Yet other people are clear that they have. And yet the existence of ghosts is not experienced by the majority of the population. So what is more likely, that ghosts exist or that there is something wrong or faulty with the perceptual qualities of certain persons' brains?
I believe there ARE adequate physiological explanations for most of the experiences people are having with yoga. For example, spinal breathing - it is known that endorphins can spread into the cerebro spinal fluid. Isn't this much more satisfying and accurate than saying something like "kundalini"? Again, when people breath deeply and relax for long enough they can perspire. To say this is a symptom of "kundalini" tells us nothing and doesn't even attempt to really tell us what is happening with the physical mechanisms of exercise.
Or take extra-sensory perception as another example. Where is the rock solid evidence that this exists? It doesn't exist. What is more likely - that ESP exists and it prefers to "hide" from the rest of us OR it is the manifestation of perceptually deluded brains?
You see, i am irked by this idea that ONLY certain persons can experience the Divine because it suggests that there are some people (most people) who aren't entitled to breathe clean air, for example. It is almost as if there is some conspiracy. But do you think the wool can be pulled over the eyes of most people, pass them by etc and there are a special few who only see reality as it really is, suggesting that in fact most people are really the ones with the deluded brains? Personally i do not buy into that viewpoint.
Please call Yoga an art and an exercise, NOT A SCIENCE.
In any case, i do not think there should be any mysteries involved when trying to explain the physical and anatomical details of yoga and its effects. If Yoga slows down the heart rate i want to know HOW that is accomplished. I do not need to be given a theory on sub-atomic particles acting as "life-force" transmitters. Whether there is some type of life force or not is not the question here - the question is about the HOW, not the WHY. We don't need to understand (and i daresay it is useless trying too) why planes do what they do. If we want to know about planes all we need to know is HOW they do what they do. The rest is speculation at best.
Again, what is the explanation for stasis (heart-stopping) from kriya yoga? Does this even actually exist? The very little scientific research that has been done on yogis has shown that in fact there is no known mechanism involved whereby a yogi can stop their heart: indeed, it was discovered that instead some of the yogis simply performed the valsalva maneouvre. This is known in India by magicians who sometimes expose Yogis and God men. A similar trick is putting something small like a rubber ball under the arm pit to stop circulation to the wrist pulse, thereby pretending to give the effect that the Yogi has control over their heart.
Houdini spent around 10 years of his life investigating psychics and mediums, including the ones considered to be the best in the world, and he came up with ZERO evidence for their tangibility. Is it that when Houdini was alive there were no decent mediums or psychics? or is it that in fact there are no mediums or psychics to begin with?
Again, another "trick" this time from the fakirs, is physical procedures to induce a state of catalepsy in preparation for a burial. THe mechanisms are strikingly like yoga - khechari mudra is used, the head is thrown back (therefore further pinching on the carotid sinuses in the neck) the carotids are pressed on with the fingers, and a cataleptic state of trance is produced. However, the fakir needs the assistance of somebody else to take them out of this trance state otherwise they could die. But the main point of note is this: Hamid Bey the fakir had his heart rate drop to 4 bpm at the lowest while in trance and yoga practitioners cannot get it anywhere near as low as this. Another point about Bey - his resting pulse was in the 80s, way above averagelly normal. So it seems as though slowing the heart and BP etc to such a small rate is actually injurious to health in general.
Perhaps i am answering my own questions here, but where is the proof, where is the evidence that a Yogi can stop their heart beating completely by doing kriya yoga? I think it is a myth.
Of course if you relax deeply and breathe deeply and do khecari mudra, mulabandha etc you can go without the need to breathe effortlessly for a little while. Something extremely similar is sleep apnea. In sleep apnea a cumulative process of exhalations being prolonged occurs, the tongue blocks off the airway and in little over 1 minute there occurs heart failure. Tests on meditators has shown that masters of meditation sometimes have their breath suspended for up to a minute at a time, but no longer than this. Is it really surprising? Is it really surprising that this 1 minute mark is there? I don't think it is. Quite clearly, the homeostatic mechanisms of the body are regulating the amount of time it is possible to be without breath. In the case of meditators they are pulling out just at the last second from having a stopped heart. In other words, it is not even POSSIBLE for there to be a breathless state (or khumbaka in yoga speack) for longer than a minute at a time.
I think the reason people believe a breathless state is possible is because their awareness goes into alpha or even theta states (ie sleepy) and that they don't notice the passage of air because in addition their rate of breathing is extraordinarily slow. You will observe if you practice on yourself that an external khumbaka is always followed by a kind of panting or grasping for air, in order to get the required dosage of oxygen back into the body. A complete absence of oxygen means death.
Now, i am open to the possibility of a cumulative yoga session lowering the heart rate of someone. But actual heart stoppage? I think there are only two ways of doing this - actual death or exhaling and not breathing in for over a minute with the tongue in khechari mudra. But this is only my theory and i haven't seen anybody provide the slightly inkling of proof of this.
Anatomy is quite a tricky subject, no doubt. You breathe this way, that way, eat this way, that way etc and who knows what the effects are. But that there are effects, and in general quite specific repeatable effects, is really where the inquiry lies. I believe there are or should be definite explanations for how heart stoppage that isn't dangerous (ie samadhi apparently) can be accomplished. It is either that or the whole idea about the samadhi state of breathless and pulseless-ness is a farce.
One more thing. Whenever a yogi has been tested and able to control and stop their heart they have never ever done it for very long. Why? I think because there is only one outcome - death. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 1:13:15 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
i think you put too much faith in science quite frankly. Science is constantly disproving what it has previously been teaching as fact. Nothing in science is proven, everything is theory. And science isn't interested in proving what Yoga says to be true. So there is no REAL research even being done on it. Yoga is as much a science as anything else. It is all considered fact until it is proven not to be. Just like science. So take it for what it is. A journey for truth. Yoga nad science alike. Niether one will truly ever be proved except by personal experience.
Best of Luck.
Love,
Carson |
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Propundit
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 2:08:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Please call Yoga an art and an exercise, NOT A SCIENCE.
Didn't I just compare yoga to both music (an art) and exercise? To me, it is first and foremost a human practice or discipline. It cannot be reduced to merely physical exercise, as yoga is intertwined with philosophy and human development - these are humanist elements that science has little interest in.
As to whether yoga can be considered a science, that really depends - the root of the word science is Scientia, which roughly means 'to see.' Yoga is interested in seeing certain things, although it does not predicate all it does on applying the western scientific method.
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
In any case, i do not think there should be any mysteries involved when trying to explain the physical and anatomical details of yoga and its effects. If Yoga slows down the heart rate i want to know HOW that is accomplished.
Well, I don't think that science really knows the answer to that. While there are correlates that can be measured (the activity of various nerves, levels of various chemicals in the blood, etc), there is not a comprehensive explanation, any more than there is a comprehensive scientific explanation of how a person heals after injury. If you don't like mysteries, then maybe you shouldn't spend so much time in science - every science paper I have read concluded that 'more research is needed'. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Again, what is the explanation for stasis (heart-stopping) from kriya yoga? Does this even actually exist?
...
Perhaps i am answering my own questions here, but where is the proof, where is the evidence that a Yogi can stop their heart beating completely by doing kriya yoga? I think it is a myth.
I really don't know much about that, and am personally not so interested in extreme feats that some who practice yoga have claimed.
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
... And i think this is dangerous. Look at all the people on this forum having spiritual experiences. No two experiences are identical, some are similar but that is it. For those who are having no spiritual experiences no amount of "yoga is a science" will hold water. The real question is this: why are some people having these experiences and other people are not?
And people on this board (and every other internet board) are having human experiences, and none of them are identical!! The real question is "why would anyone assume otherwise?"
Your idea that {since not everyone that does yoga has certain experiences, it cannot be science} might be compared to the notion that that medicine cannot be scientific since not everyone that goes to a doctor is healed. Those who have developed various yoga techniques over the past several thousand years have their own vocabulary and methods - while many are trying to translate into a western science vocabulary and research the hows, there are still many mysteries. |
Edited by - Propundit on Nov 19 2008 2:33:31 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 4:27:19 PM
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And people on this board (and every other internet board) are having human experiences, and none of them are identical!! The real question is "why would anyone assume otherwise?"
I would assume otherwise based on the simple fact that science doesn't discriminate, it goes to the heart of the matter. It tells you the facts. It is a method of inquiry that is not based on hearsay or philosophy, it is based on OBJECTIVE FACTS. If you can prove to mean the non-existence of gravity, i will conceed your points. Most of the rest of your response was actually warm air. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 4:31:47 PM
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You know, i appreciate your prayers and goodwill. That is the basis of good communication. BUt if i talk about reasonable matters such as science being factual, suddenley you explode like a volcano. I personally believe that your conceptions of enlightenment are arbitrary and bent lines. There is no order there.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 5:10:38 PM
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Science can't even prove the non-existance of gravity, (yet people levitate without any signs of trickery) so how would Yoga do it without bringing science into the equation? And science refuses to be brought into the Yoga research circle so this is bascially a Catch 22.
And if your "exploding like a volcano" comment was directed at me, you are sadly mistaken and poorly reading the emotions between the lines. There are no emotions here. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just like you can't convince ME of anything. I know that there are many things modern science can never prove yet are an out and out reality. So science is very limited in my opinion. Science doesn't bring into the equation the FACT that man is a spiritual being. And there are no equations you can put on spirituality as it is individual. This is the main reason why science and yoga are not compatible IMHO. Science refuses to acknowledge anything it doesn't "understand" (not that it actually "understands" at least not fully, anything) and therefore will never prove that gravity as a "law" can be broken or anything else that has to do with spirituality. Only personal experience will prove to you this fact.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Nov 19 2008 5:26:22 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 5:19:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
You know, i appreciate your prayers and goodwill. That is the basis of good communication. BUt if i talk about reasonable matters such as science being factual, suddenley you explode like a volcano. I personally believe that your conceptions of enlightenment are arbitrary and bent lines. There is no order there.
Scientific fact, the only fact there is brother Gumpi, unknown variable.
existence came to be because of unknown variable. Everything less then unknown variable is far far inferior for it is what made all this possible. Sure you can talk about empty space, matter, mass, etc.... but unknown variable was before all that, before big bang or whatever theory of creation. No matter how far you break it down you will always end up at i dont know. You are alive, you are experiencing, those are facts. The words i write you are the hard words for me to accept, but go ahead and ask science if it can disprove this post, it cannnot. So our choice brother Gumpi, we can either try and think alive or try and feel alive. Keep in thoughts and you will be stuck there, let go of thoughts and Feel the wind, feel your skin, feel a baby in your arms, feel the sunshine, feel love. I can appreciate your rant and frustration brother Gumpi, a part of me is a thinker as well, my role model now is forest gump, so if you drop the I then you become gump as well. as he once said "i may not be a smart man, but i know what love is"
love ya brother
brother neil
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Propundit
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 5:57:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I would assume otherwise based on the simple fact that science doesn't discriminate, it goes to the heart of the matter. It tells you the facts. It is a method of inquiry that is not based on hearsay or philosophy, it is based on OBJECTIVE FACTS.
The idea of science going 'to the heart of the matter' is a flowery metaphor and very unscientific. But that's ok, most of us can handle words that have different meanings in different contexts.
You have eliminated the complexity of the world in your model of 'science' and have reduced it to a cartoon. For example, lab science can tell us that a particular compound has antibiotic properties and works 100% in vitro; when doctors prescribe that antibiotic, it may work, or it may not ... it could be the bacteria causing the infection was never susceptible to that medicine, could be that the bacteria was susceptible but has developed resistance, maybe the person has gut issues and doesn't absorb an effective dose, or could be that the person has a bad reaction to the scientifically proven medicine and dies. The real world is more complex than a few scientific principles or published articles.
When science studies various meditation and pranayama practices, they usually find these can have profound, beneficial effects on the body. Does that mean that everyone has the same experience? No. If you understand science, you will accept this, as it is true.
If you want to eliminate all the 'mumbo-jumbo' and things that cannot be scientifically proven, that's your birthright. Dr. Benson distilled one form of meditation down to the 'relaxation response' and that technique has helped many people. There are many other techniques with different methods and effects. I assert that what is being done here on this site is somewhat similar to what Dr. Benson did ... the techniques are being simplified and made accessible, although for a different reason (Benson was concerned primarily with preventing disease, while most traditional yogis are concerned with human development). If you want to take the asanas, pranayams, and other techniques without the philosophical context, again ... your choice.
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
If you can prove to mean the non-existence of gravity, i will conceed your points. Most of the rest of your response was actually warm air.
Why should I try to disprove gravity, when I believe in it? While gravity does not discriminate in terms of increasing speed per second per second for falling bodies, there are individual human responses to gravity ... some people fall 40 feet and are relatively unscathed, while others trip, fall 5 feet, and suffer serious injuries. This is what you seem unwilling to accept - that people are not standardized, they are not exposed to the same things, and even when they are, the results are not consistent or tidy. That's life, my friend!
Perhaps you should take a few classes in non-reductionist scientific methods - cybernetics, systems theory, chaos and complexity, control theory, or even climatology. I suggest that your thinking has been conditioned by the reductionist paradigm, always seeking to study fewer variables, smaller parts of large systems. Such zooming in is valuable, but science is more than that. Some phenomena can only be explained by zooming out, including more variables, and thinking differently.
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Edited by - Propundit on Nov 19 2008 6:14:29 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2008 : 11:45:53 AM
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| so what about explanations for my original questions?? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2008 : 1:35:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
So my question is really quite simple (and i have been racking my brains trying to figure this out) - how does yoga reduce the heart rate exactly?
Simple answer....same way sleeping lowers your heart rate. When the body isn't in a state of high anticipation or "high alert" our body doesn't need to pump as much blood as fast as usual. Therefore when we are meditating and lower our brainwave frequencies from waking state to one closer to relaxation or sleep, our heart rate lowers. Just like when you go to sleep. Hope this answers your question.
Love,
Carson |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2008 : 3:18:03 PM
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| no sorry, it didn't answer my question or questions. |
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paw
52 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2008 : 7:40:02 PM
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gumpi says:
"Tests on meditators has shown that masters of meditation sometimes have their breath suspended for up to a minute at a time, but no longer than this. Is it really surprising? Is it really surprising that this 1 minute mark is there? I don't think it is. Quite clearly, the homeostatic mechanisms of the body are regulating the amount of time it is possible to be without breath. In the case of meditators they are pulling out just at the last second from having a stopped heart. In other words, it is not even POSSIBLE for there to be a breathless state (or khumbaka in yoga speack) for longer than a minute at a time."
As Tigger would say, "Prepoceros!".   |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2008 : 8:06:01 PM
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your original post
logic would say anytime you maximize effeciency of motion force and energy needed for motion decreases. so how does heart rate slow down, the body becomes aligned and does not need to work as hard. My heart rate has slowed down 10bpm but that is nowhere near the results you are talking about. also, as the body becomes more in tuned with the subtle forces of reality the more it can be supported by that, rather then the obvious to us. example, we eat 2000 calories and some people can live on very little 500 calories or less and very little water, i would assume breathing and heart rate would follow suit to those types of people. also, "realized" people may not feel the need to validate what they can do because even if there is documentation or they perform these "miracles" people will still find a reason to doubt so no need to prove anything, the pure of heart will listen, the scientist may not.
take care brother Gumpi
we are love
brother neil
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paw
52 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2008 : 3:17:10 PM
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when there is enough pran circulating through an evolving nervous system, then there is less need for venous blood to be filtered for impurities. So heartrate and respiration slow down.
Prana is not mystical mumbo-jumbo. It is life force itself. |
Edited by - paw on Nov 25 2008 3:21:17 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 02:55:24 AM
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| Venous blood is physical physiology, not prana. Tell me what the connection between them is. Tell me the physical processes involved that reduce venous blood. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2008 : 11:45:56 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
If you read 'The Kundalini Experience by Lee Sanella' you may find answers. Unfortunately I loaned my copy to someone who never returned it.As far as I can remember there is part where he talks of the heart rate sycronising with brain wave. He researched this in the 70's I believe.
L&L
Dave |
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paw
52 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2008 : 5:46:24 PM
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gumpi, I didn't say venous blood was reduced. I said that the need for it to be filtered of impurities was reduced, due to the presence of a good amount of life force in the body.
I'm not a scientist, but I think the problem here may be that science has not yet found a way to objectively measure "life force" in a being, so the concept of life force is still poorly defined and understood by science.
'Course, that doesn't mean that "life force" doesn't exist, just that scientists don't yet know much about it. Perhaps, if you are really interested. you could become the scientist that discovers and measures this "immaterial force" that gives us life?
Personally, I'm too busy cultivating life force within myself to be bothered to professionally study the science of it. But I'm interested, if you find out more please give us an update.  |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2008 : 08:11:31 AM
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| Where do you get your source that says impurities are reduced in venous blood? And how do you know this happens? Explain how this happens. |
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paw
52 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2008 : 8:29:12 PM
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gumpi...You don't seem to be reading my posts. You just keep repeating your questions. This is the last reply you will hear from me in any future thread.
I just said, impurities are not reduced in venous blood, just that there is no need to filter the venous blood, because the body is saturated with prana so it doesn't need to be filtered.
I won't give you a source (altho I have one), I just told you that I don't know how to scientifically measure this, and I doubt anyone else does either, or you wouldn't be asking your questions. As I suggested, why don't you do the science yourself?
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Yoga and the reduced heart rate
