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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 1:45:44 PM
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quote:
I'm sorry if this is a stupid and ignorant question, but I really can't seem to wrap my head around what you mean when you say "most people dealing with reality...." People NOT dealing with reality have an easier time? A FEW people dealing with reality can? Not sure exactly what you were implying with the sentence and would appreciate it greatly if you could clarify for me. Thanks and sorry I'm so dull witted.
Love,
Carson
Sorry, Carson, it's the way that I worded it. And I don't consider any question stupid or ignorant.
Anyway, what I meant when I said, "Most people dealing with reality can't" is that most people cannot simply be in the now, because there are subconscious, latent, impressions (called samskaras) whether from childhood or from a past life (if this is a person's belief), that prevent a person from truly being in the moment - or in the now - fully.
So I don't take issue with living fully within the present moment, but the teaching philosophy which states that all that's necessary is to change your mental state to accomplish this. In other words, 'think great thoughts' or 'don't think anything' and everything will be wonderful and full of joy, even if the person doesn't feel this way at their core. Whereas, meditation and other practices are proven to get to the heart of the matter so that the person experiences the present moment fully, without having to fight with their thoughts, or to use the mind to create a false reality. Since it's like putting a stick of gum in the hole of a leaky damn. It may produce a temporary sense of being in the now, but it's not permanent.
I hope that makes more sense.
Take care:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Nov 04 2008 2:00:59 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 2:28:50 PM
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Hi VIL,
Thanks for the clarification, makes a lot more sense now. And I agree 100%. The only thing that forcibly puts me into the NOW is certain entheogens like LSD, Ayahausca and Ketamine....I have experienced the NOW in meditation as well, but never had a full experience of "Emptyness Dancing", or Silence in Action I don't think. Practices seem to help facilitate a transition towards living in the NOW though, which is why I think you and I are on the same page (and some others too...I remember Gumpi saying in another thread that he thought Eckart Tolle's books were garbage and I can see where he is coming from) in thinking that all the Eckart Tolle's and Advaita-Only teachers of the world are leaving out vital steps for 99.9% of humanity. For those of us born with karma still intact, there needs to be some sort of purification exercises first in order to fully grasp the truth of the NOW. Thanks again for clarifying.
Love,
Carson |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2008 : 03:00:31 AM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
I'm sorry for coming across with an absolute....(saying that enlightenment CANNOT be put into words) I guess what I meant was enlightenment is very difficult to put into words
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that enlightenment could be put into words, that seems to be the one thing that all enlightened teachers do agree on . I just meant to say that, as far as the job could be done, these guys in the videos were having a pretty good go.
quote:
For those of us born with karma still intact, there needs to be some sort of purification exercises first in order to fully grasp the truth of the NOW. Thanks again for clarifying.
Absoluteley. And I think you would find yourself on the same page as Adyashanti and Sri Kalki Bhagavan as they both teach practices designed for that purpose.
The interesting thing would be to put that question to either Eckhart Toll or to Mooji. What would their answer be on that subject I wonder?
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2008 : 03:05:05 AM
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Hi David,
quote:
Yes, the semantics is unfortunate, but I am glad to hear that at least when the details are looked at, he isn't over-reaching.
I have been pleased with Adyashanti on other occasions, as he sometimes actively works to reduce the inflated 'popular' image of 'enlightenment'. A teacher with a priestcrafty agenda (whether personal or inherited unconsciously from culture) is very uninclined to do such a service to their students, as the inflated image serves the priestcraft.
I am very hopeful that there is a developing world culture in which the aspects of 'englightenment' are better understood. This better understanding conditions the soil for more solid spiritual development. I think that some people here at AYP are playing their part in bringing those changes about. Keep up the good work everyone!
Well said!
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2008 : 08:01:21 AM
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Hi x.j.
quote:
Because you know we are all the same: Christi/Yogani, Steve, Michael, Kirtanman, Katrine, Eva, , Riptiz, Shanti, Brian, Neli, Ananda, myself, etc. The list goes on and on around here. The list is in the hundreds!
We are all totally equal but on a continuum. We are like tulips and daffodils sprouting up in the springtime, some just peeking up out of the ground a little bit, some two inches up, some three inches up out of the ground...Just look around.
Absolutely! And yet, when enlightenment is reached, it is seen clearly that there are no daffodils or tulips, and that, in truth, there never were. They were just another part of the illusion.
Another divine paradox, as Yogani would say.
Christi |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2008 : 09:40:22 AM
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quote:
Can you imagine if anyone on these forums said they had achieved final enlightenment?
HEY! I AM FINALLY ENLIGHTENED!
hmm...actually no...just kidding
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2008 : 9:50:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
And yet, when enlightenment is reached, it is seen clearly that there are no daffodils or tulips, and that, in truth, there never were. They were just another part of the illusion.
Another divine paradox, as Yogani would say.
Christi
That we at AYP are doffodils and tulips is a metaphor that captures the idea that we are all on slightly different levels of self unfoldment and transformation. So slight, that we are almost at totally indistinguishably different levels. And the final enlightenment of which someone(Adyashanti, et. al.) speaks is yet another figure of speech as well, because there is no finality ever to our transformation. No end point. That's the beauty of our divine inheritance. So there is Nothing to reach. No final and total enlightenment end point to reach. It is metaphor for our journey into the light.
x.j.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2008 : 04:19:32 AM
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quote:
That we at AYP are doffodils and tulips is a metaphor that captures the idea that we are all on slightly different levels of self unfoldment and transformation. So slight, that we are almost at totally indistinguishably different levels. And the final enlightenment of which someone(Adyashanti, et. al.) speaks is yet another figure of speech as well, because there is no finality ever to our transformation. No end point. That's the beauty of our divine inheritance. So there is Nothing to reach. No final and total enlightenment end point to reach. It is metaphor for our journey into the light.
That's a beautiful metaphore x.j.
I love it.
And yet somehow it is seen that there are no daffodils, or tulips, and never really were. Only movements in minds that are sometimes attached to, and sometimes pass away. Stories that are believed in, or let go of, like dew in the sun. And the ending of that story is bliss.
Christi |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2008 : 08:24:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
[brAnd yet somehow it is seen that there are no daffodils, or tulips, and never really were. Only movements in minds that are sometimes attached to, and sometimes pass away. Stories that are believed in, or let go of, like dew in the sun. And the ending of that story is bliss.
Christi
Well said Christi. Advaita. Insubstantiality,impermanence,nonindividuality,nonduality of the physical tulip. But then we get up off the cushion, and still need to do the laundry, and empty the garbage before we go off to work!
x.j. |
Edited by - x.j. on Nov 06 2008 08:27:01 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2008 : 04:34:27 AM
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Hi x.j.
quote:
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But then we get up off the cushion, and still need to do the laundry, and empty the garbage before we go off to work!
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No, that's the continuation of the story, not the ending of the story, and that's not bliss at all. That's just more story.
Everything rises and falls in awareness... cushions, laundry, garbage, visions, spiritual advancement, lives, tantric lovers, the movement from birth to death, daffodils. And what happens when there is no identification with the story? No identification with the movements of the mind?
It's not just our story, it's the story of the world.
Thank goodness for teachers behind microphones, or we may never notice.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2008 : 03:58:33 AM
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Hi x.j.
quote:
I am just a pigheaded, independent-minded yogi, a humble one, no authority on anything really, but part of my job description is that I am not too interested in someone elses regurgitations and attempts at articulating what is way beyond words. I want to experience what sages might have to say first hand, right now. I don't have time to sit there and listen up.
That's my gig, to listen to the inner guru. I'm sure we agree on all this. Neither of us were born yesterday.
That's fine if that's your way, other people have other ways. But I do think you would be better off simply saying "it's not really my thing", rather than making disparaging remarks about the teachers in question without really understanding what they are talking about.
One day you will be sitting behind a microphone with flowers in your hair and rose petals strewn around your feet, talking about how lovely it is being you (and paradoxically everyone else at the same time). And then you will think back on this conversation and laugh until you cry.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2008 : 11:46:04 AM
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quote:
Hi VIL,
Thanks for the clarification, makes a lot more sense now. And I agree 100%. The only thing that forcibly puts me into the NOW is certain entheogens like LSD, Ayahausca and Ketamine....I have experienced the NOW in meditation as well, but never had a full experience of "Emptyness Dancing", or Silence in Action I don't think. Practices seem to help facilitate a transition towards living in the NOW though, which is why I think you and I are on the same page (and some others too...I remember Gumpi saying in another thread that he thought Eckart Tolle's books were garbage and I can see where he is coming from) in thinking that all the Eckart Tolle's and Advaita-Only teachers of the world are leaving out vital steps for 99.9% of humanity. For those of us born with karma still intact, there needs to be some sort of purification exercises first in order to fully grasp the truth of the NOW. Thanks again for clarifying.
Love,
Carson
Hey, Carson, I never tried any hard drugs, so I can't really comment on the experience. Like you, my brother smoked pot, because he couldn't eat without it, so I understand that. As far as a person doing drugs I have the mind set of to each their own. It's not my business to judge on way or the other. I kind of have that attitude toward Adyashanti and Tolle, but just wanted to make it clear that it's not the only reality, since there is silence before and after AUM*. Some are content with the latter.
I listened to Eric Putkoten's webcast yesterday and he used a bicycle analogy of not giving energy to the mind by stop peddaling. And I thought it was relevant and one way of experiencing peace. Just as was Adyashanti's account of riding the bike to exhaustion. And some others methodologies which are like riding a bike into a wall where they hit their heads and have a sort of amnesia. Also, there's the teacher constantly preoccupied with how fast or slow the bikes going rather than enjoying the ride.
So it's kind of like that with me. I don't understand that type of philosophy, since most of these teachers spent years meditating, suffered greatly, and sought and sought and sought, until they had a break through. If their current teachings complied with their reality before enlightenment then it would be understandable. In other words, if they said, seeking to exhaustion causes years and years of hardship, etc., and that's what you'll have to do to experience my state of consciousness then at least it would be honest. Instead of saying, no don't seek, no don't do that, just be in the now, because this is all there is... I guess they want people to avoid the suffering that they had, which brought about their break through, although hypocritical. Buddha never did that. He said/showed the way how he experienced enlightenment. Christ never did that, He said follow me...
So, anyway, I view this type of enlightenment as limiting, because of mentally attaching meaning from the experience; or as if to say, 'well, the spiritual teachings had to mean this' or 'the sole purpose of spiritual teaching must have been to exhaust people, since this corresponds to my experience...' (we all have done this)So they get off of the bike, at this point in time, and are content with where they are and that's fine. But that's not the only reality. And it does bother me when I hear these teachers say, 'this is all there is' or 'I can tell you, there is nothing else, but now'. No, there is more than their view/type of reality. And I would not care if the whole world held this view of enlightenment. I don't.
Take care:
VIL
*P.S. Silence before AUM is non-movement or not pedaling the bike. Silence after AUM is movement, or hearing the spokes of the bike, until the hum is no longer perceptable. Both are different states of silence.
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Edited by - VIL on Nov 11 2008 12:40:40 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2008 : 03:52:59 AM
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Hi Vil,
quote:
Instead of saying, no don't seek, no don't do that, just be in the now, because this is all there is... I guess they want people to avoid the suffering that they had, which brought about their break through, although hypocritical. Buddha never did that. He said/showed the way how he experienced enlightenment. Christ never did that, He said follow me...
Actually I think both the Buddha and Jesus Christ did this too. The Buddha spent many years suffering on his spiritual quest and almost starved himself to death at one point. Christ also suffered immensley both during his time in the desert, and on the cross before his resurrection. You can get a good idea how much he suffered by watching the film "The passion of the Christ".
But when they taught, they did not say, suffer as I did, but gave teachings that would lead to enlightenment without suffering. A bit more compassionate?
Both Jesus and the Buddha were dual/ advaita. In other words they both gave teachings which involved spiritual practices leading towards unity consciousness, and they gave pure advaita teachings as well.
Christi |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2008 : 06:54:33 AM
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quote:
Christi: Actually I think both the Buddha and Jesus Christ did this too. The Buddha spent many years suffering on his spiritual quest and almost starved himself to death at one point. Christ also suffered immensley both during his time in the desert, and on the cross before his resurrection. You can get a good idea how much he suffered by watching the film "The passion of the Christ".
But when they taught, they did not say, suffer as I did, but gave teachings that would lead to enlightenment without suffering. A bit more compassionate?
Both Jesus and the Buddha were dual/ advaita. In other words they both gave teachings which involved spiritual practices leading towards unity consciousness, and they gave pure advaita teachings as well.
Christi
They demonstrated and were inclusive of both, you're right. Good point, Christi:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Nov 12 2008 07:14:57 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2008 : 12:58:09 PM
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I have a hard time believing the Bible as the actual words of Christ so who knows what he was REALLY teaching. I have an inkling that he was actually trying to teach practices as well but these most likely got editted out of the final version, and maybe even the very earliest versions as well since they didn't gel with the message of Duality as the ultimate reality that the Church wanted to portray. I think Christ was very misrepresented and noone really knows what he was truly teaching.
Love,
Carson |
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k123
118 Posts |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2009 : 4:21:42 PM
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Yogani, I got acutely depressed from hearing that lady... when she said "it can be very flat"... is she just in the "flat witness" state and has the ecstatic experiences in front of her (with the outpouring of divine love) etc, or is it really that... flat... no joy... for some after having the whole enchilada?
(I watched all the five parts.) |
Edited by - emc on Jan 14 2009 4:47:07 PM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2009 : 5:11:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Yogani, I got acutely depressed from hearing that lady... when she said "it can be very flat"... is she just in the "flat witness" state and has the ecstatic experiences in front of her (with the outpouring of divine love) etc, or is it really that... flat... no joy... for some after having the whole enchilada?
(I watched all the five parts.)
Funny emc, for me it was quite joyful to hear her speak somehow!
I guess it's different people's takes on things, both the enlightened talking about what it is for them to be enlightened and we the unenlightened hearing about it Well, I found myself laughing for no reason (deeply laughing) with some of the things she said. It was kind of a rememberance, like when somebody says something joyful that you have forgotten and you remember again and you feel this joy bubbling up and you just laugh
I also watched the one suggested by Sparkle. Again, a slight different take on the same thing. I believe actually some people are enlightened without ever haven't heard the word! These 2 examples are of two people who were seekers, seeking all their lifes for what they thought was this "perfect state". I believe everyone that feels joy pouring through them at a constant rate and a sense of connectedness with everything and a baseline of unshakable happiness is what you may call enlightened. I certainly had a taste for this at a time in my life for sometime but it too faded (like the second man on the interview). Still, I think I know what they mean, and with yogani's techniques I can see it rising gradually, slowly but surely. And the great thing about it is that you don't even have to think about it or seek anything! Just enjoying each moment and living life as it is is enough!
Then again, I do believe you "change" after enlightenment and I think that woman changed as well. Didn't you hear her: she stopped seeking and for that alone it was worth it Quite a joker our God HAHAHAHAHA Also, the man said it as well - he quite changed after it happened to him, he enjoys life more. But again, emc, maybe you got depressed because you are seeking some conceptual thing that your mind created. There is no point in doing this and it could even be an obstacle. I am sure we are all already "it" and there is no need to look for "it" anywhere, but just maybe understand this and let "it" be and live like this every moment. If you do you come to enjoy each moment and enlightment, paradoxically, will be there much more quickly.
Or so it seems... |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2009 : 6:53:11 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelumbo_nucifera
Nulumbo nucifera: The Indian Lotus. It embodies "buddha-nature" and bodhichitt. Read about how it evolved a self-regulated warmth for the benefit of the creatures in the pond.
If we expand that concept to humans, awakening acquires a concreteness and a group purpose, a social goal.
It is awakening from the ego as if from a dream, and just like we leave the dream world behind in the day, we leave the ego world behind when we awaken. We awaken to a community of selfless persons committed to preserving and nurturing this paradise planet and all its life forms.
Love,
TMS |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Jan 14 2009 7:30:57 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2009 : 02:15:04 AM
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I think those two are interesting also in another way... They both deny any spiritual practices of any kind ever enhances the chances for the realization to occur! It's like, oh, so all the other enlightened who during thousands of years have brought on the systems that you yourselves have used were suddenly wrong and didn't mean a thing? That mechanism is very interesting per se. They seem to totally lack the knowings of Yogani - that stillness and kundalini actually cleanses the system for enabling the realization... It may happen instantly without any practices for some, but most need to clean their systems in this lifetime. And they seem to totally be unaware of how that cleansing has been happening within themselves, not even reflecting over the fact that most people (as themselves) who realize are those who actually have been doing A LOT of practices of all kinds...
I find it very interesting with that phenomenon - the sudden total lack of seeing the design of the purification process which enables the shift in perspective. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2009 : 05:06:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I think those two are interesting also in another way... They both deny any spiritual practices of any kind ever enhances the chances for the realization to occur! It's like, oh, so all the other enlightened who during thousands of years have brought on the systems that you yourselves have used were suddenly wrong and didn't mean a thing? That mechanism is very interesting per se. They seem to totally lack the knowings of Yogani - that stillness and kundalini actually cleanses the system for enabling the realization... It may happen instantly without any practices for some, but most need to clean their systems in this lifetime. And they seem to totally be unaware of how that cleansing has been happening within themselves, not even reflecting over the fact that most people (as themselves) who realize are those who actually have been doing A LOT of practices of all kinds...
I find it very interesting with that phenomenon - the sudden total lack of seeing the design of the purification process which enables the shift in perspective.
Hi emc, it si indeed interesting.
But to be honest I think they are being totally honest when they say that their personal stories of seeking had nothing to do with the awakening per se. I have no reason to believe it can't be so. I believe when (if) we get enlightened ourselves we will be so surprised by how mundane, simple, and at the same time powerfully transforming it is and how we never had any clue that it was anything like that. In other words, it can't be predicted or anticipated, it is something that happens (or not happens) by itself. It is been said over and over again, no ammount of effort can bring us there. Maybe desire yes, and the rest maybe follows naturally. Yogani wrote it himself - you will laugh and laugh when you really see how things really are, when you wake up.
Regarding practices I don't think they harm at all and, in my case, they are something that I enjoy doing and I do feel huge differences in their potential to change me on the inside and how that reflects in my daily life. For that alone I do them. But I don't do them to "seek" enlightenment. I too believe there is nothing to seek. Either you wake up or not, there is no effort involved. It's kind like falling asleep or waking up - you can't really force it, can you? Remember those insomnia nights - no ammount of trying will bring you to sleep, it can even make it worse, at least for me! The more I try the worst I make it! It must be kind the same kind of thing. Now, if you have a relaxed life and are content maybe you will fall asleep more easily yes...but you don't have a content and happy life in order to sleep better, you have it for the sake of having a happy and content life...and then it all somehow falls into place...maybe...but there is no way of knowing for sure is there?...maybe this is what happens with practices and enlightenment. So, I would do the practices for the sake of themselves and the effects we get from them but not necessarily to "obtain" something else. Otherwise it is just something else we are creating, another obstacle.
Or so it seems...
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2009 : 05:09:36 AM
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| And they did (especially the man) explained very well that it is indeed a letting go, a fall away of these ego emanations. A release of the constrictions. He mentioned even the breath. So he is aware that something happens (some "cleasing") and that there may be techniques that help the realisation. But I guess the problem is that if you "struggle" to get realised you are actually getting farther from it. And I think I can understand this. |
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What is enlightenment?
