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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 03 2005 : 09:31:01 AM
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Is there a reason why we make tiny little snips?
Why dont we just cut the whole frenum. Almost every dentist does that. Most of them with laser. (No pain, no blood, no scar) In switzerland we pay to do that about 50 $. I dont know how much it is in the USA but it would not be much more expensive.
Isnt that the "easyier way"?
oli |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2005 : 4:07:14 PM
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Oliver,
will a dentist do that for you without a 'dental/medical' reason?
As far as I can see, the small snips are for 'safety and comfort' only. I suppose you just might hurt yourself taking large snips. In fact, some would say that taking large snips is hurting yourself. 
There would also be risks, by the way, with advancing too agressively with kechari practice. The slow removal of the tether makes the related problems less likely.
The procedure of which you speak, by the way, is probably for the removal of the frenal membrane, (or maybe only the most prominent part of the frenum itself) which is only a small part of the frenum. I doubt a dentist could remove your whole frenum in a bloodless procedure that costs only $50.
It is very easy to remove the frenal membrane (often takes only one or two snips, often quite small) and there is a significant gain in mobility immediately when it is done. Progress is more slow in removing the rest of the frenum.
-David
quote:
Originally posted by brauniver
Is there a reason why we make tiny little snips?
Why dont we just cut the whole frenum. Almost every dentist does that. Most of them with laser. (No pain, no blood, no scar) In switzerland we pay to do that about 50 $. I dont know how much it is in the USA but it would not be much more expensive.
Isnt that the "easyier way"?
oli
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 03 2005 11:38:50 PM |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2005 : 5:15:00 PM
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Thanks for answer!
I saw we had a similar dicussion about the frenum. http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=359
For me this is the frenum. http://www.simplyteeth.com/images/G_0055_s.jpg
So it isnt enough just to cut the frenum (the skin)? As you say we have to cut deep into the flesh not just 2 cm into the skin. Is that right?
Have you got a picture of your mouth?
Would it be a possibility to start with a lasercut to remove the skin and then go deeper if necessary?
Lg
oli |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2005 : 6:55:21 PM
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Originally posted by brauniver
>> Thanks for answer!
Hi Oliver, you are welcome.
>> For me this is the frenum. http://www.simplyteeth.com/images/G_0055_s.jpg" target="_blank"> br / > > http://www.simplyteeth.com/images/G_0055_s.jpg
Thanks for the picture. It's useful.
>> So it isnt enough just to cut the frenum (the skin)? As you say we have to cut deep into the flesh not just 2 cm into the skin. Is that right?
You don't cut deeply into into the flesh is one cutting. But gradually over time, you access what is deep because it will have come to the surface at the time when you cut it.
All right, you sound like you are interested and have an inquiring mind, so I'll tell you the full story. 
The picture is of a person who has almost no 'frenal membrane'. Quite a number of people are like that. The frenal membrane is a very thin membrane with a sharp edge, and it is the forward-most part of the frenum when it is there. (By the way, most people have another frenal-membrane above their upper lip on the inside.) If this is cut, it tends to simply seem to disappear. What is left is blunter, and could be called frenum proper.
Even the frenum proper isn't so simple. It is in itself a complex of individually-invisible fibers embedded in flesh beneath the skin, going from different anchor points in the root of the tongue to various places near the top.
But among the fibers, some are the most limiting for tongue movement. These tend to be the forward-most fibers when the tongue is held in a position like in the diagram. They become the tautest (hardest) when the tongue is pulled. They can tend to bundle into something like a string where they are most taut, as they do in the photograph, and you can see that they are even whitish in the photograph from the tautness.
That point that is labeled 'the frenum' in the photograph is just the currently-most-limiting part of the frenum for that person. It looks almost like a piece of string under the skin. That would be the best part to cut next for that person, in order to allow more movement in the tongue.
But when that part is cut for that person, a few things happen. Firstly, that tongue will probably get further because the most-limiting fibers are now gone. If the cut is big, a little wound that looks like a little hole will appear. Now, during healing the existing fibers in the frenum will start to re-arrange to make up for the missing fibers. In a sense, new fibers are coming to the surface. When the wound is fully healed, the new fibers will have arranged in such a way that the hole is completely gone. There will be no trace of the former wound. The frenum edge will tend to be a bit more blunt, and will protrude less forward.
So in this way, the frenum sort of seems to 'melt away' over time!
For the next cut, one goes again to the most forward, tautest, most limiting part of the frenum. And the process repeats. So, after cutting for some time, you will actually be cutting fibers that were quite deep once. But they will be on the surface when you cut them.
>> Have you got a picture of your mouth?
I have not. If I get a digital camera soon, I'll make one. There is very little trace of my frenum left visible.
>> Would it be a possibility to start with a lasercut to remove the skin and then go deeper if necessary?
Yes, that sounds very possible. You might be able to convince the dentist for you to do a later cut too. However, keep in mind that as time goes on, as I was saying the frenum edge becomes much more blunt and it looks less like there is a piece of string under the skin. I don't know to what extent a dentist will cut into that for you.
I am a person who has snipped rather rapidly. In my own experience, whereas I snipped near the middle and top in the beginning, eventually I had to look much lower down in the tongue, and pull it quite taut, to find the most limiting fibers. I began to snip eventually at more or less the point where the frenum would come in contact with the lower teeth if the tongue were pulled out and rubbed on the lower teeth. If I were instructing a dentist, I would ask him to cut into that area in my case. I think all of the frenum can be removed by cutting through this area. In my case anyway, it appears to be conveniently clear of neighboring veins.
I hope you found that helpful,
regards,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 07 2005 10:25:38 AM |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2005 : 7:48:55 PM
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Thanks! A very complete story.
Are there any veins or other important things in this area?
Btw: Does somebody understand my english?
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Edited by - n/a on Sep 04 2005 12:04:03 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2005 : 12:05:09 PM
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>> Are there any veins or other important things in this area?
Hi Ollie, there are no significant veins in the frenum itself. There are some nearby, so one has to be careful.
Of course, a dentist knows well what to do if a vein is inadvertently cut.
>> Btw: Does somebody understand my english?
Perfectly.
By the way, I may have overstated how much snipping needs to be done; often not that much is needed to get into stage 2.
And of course, this often varies person to person. Maybe one or two visits to the dentist would do it.
I think for stage 3 and 4, one or two visits would be unlikely to be enough unless the dentist is prepared to cut quite a bit.
Cheers,
-David
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2005 : 12:28:20 PM
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Hello Ollie,
by the way, be aware that Kechari does not stand alone so well as a practice. In fact, none of the AYP methods really do, except perhaps meditation.
Inner silence and ecstasy are the two wings on which we begin to 'fly' (speaking figuratively) as we tend towards enlightenment. Kechari is an ecstasy-related practice; it tends to stimulate ecstatic currents in the body. This pair, ecstasy and inner silence, can also be called Shakti and Shiva respectively.
But without the support of inner silence the ecstasy won't work. If
you plunge too far into Kechari without the supporting practices, there are a few different ways in which it won't work well. One of the best (of the ways it won't work well -- an odd thing to say!) is that the ecstasy will simply dissipate and stagnate uneventfully without the inner silence to support it and stimulate it. So it is possible that the experience will just come to very little. One of the worst is the disturbing unleashing of Shakti without the Shiva (and Ajna --- command) to support it; this could lead to premature kundalini awakenings and so on. As they say here rather colorfully in the US, 'You want that like a hole in your head'.
Or maybe you would get a half-and-half combination of the dissipation and disturbances. You want that like half a hole in your head.
So, definitely pace yourself as you go into Kechari, make sure you have in general a 'good sadhana'; you should have the support of good all round meditation practice, and, most importantly of all, that you keep your life in balance. As you advance in your sadhana, you may notice some changes occurring in you and you have to have a good sense of how you can manage those changes.
Let me tell you my own case: I have been been meditating steadily for some twenty years. My tongue is plenty long enough for stage three now but I am going to stay here in stage two for some time, to let it all stabilize and make sure I can manage all changes well.
Because, rather ironically, while frenum-snipping in itself seems like a very big deal to some people, it is not in fact a big deal in itself, while the practice of Advanced Kechari is. It is really in premature Advanced Kechari, not in frenum-snipping, that the significant risks lie.
Yogani has suggested a view of the frenum is a protective mechanism placed there by nature to prevent us from advancing into Kechari prematurely; I don't know if this is literally correct, or just mythically helpful, but I can't rule out that it could even be literally correct.
This is all to caution you, not to turn you off. The spiritual life is beautiful and wonderful, and I am glad to see your bhakti; be ready though that, as you probably know well, is not by any means all bliss, ease and comfort.
Best regards,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 04 2005 2:19:59 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2005 : 1:44:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Melissa
Hello all -
I have been contempleting snipping as well, but have chickened out of doing so. I thought about asking my dentist to help, but chickened out of that as well. <SNIP> or Should I just wait? Suggestions are appreciated! 
Melissa
Hi Melissa,
well you didn't chicken out of discussing it, which is good! :)
>> Should I snip and not try to stretch the tongue?, as in just take it to the soft palate and stay there?
Exactly. If there is discomfort, btw, it will only last for a few days. But you can easily deal with it in Kechari practice by just letting it hang back at a lesser stage than you are used to.
>> Should I snip and not try to stretch the tongue?,
By the way, not sure you are saying this, but just in case anyway, there's no need for any sort of intensity in your 'stretch' of the tongue in Kechari practice. You just put your tongue it as far as it goes. Intense engagement of the tongue muscles doesn't really help. It will get you an extra mm or two, and tire your tongue out!
>> Should I just wait? Suggestions are appreciated!
Tell the truth, Melissa, you really want us all to say you should wait, don't you?
At the same time though, no need to snip unless you feel 'called'. It's all about where you bhakti is taking you.
So, are you called-and-wimping-out, or just not called? Only you can say.
-David
P.S. When I delete parts of my quote of other peoples' message, I sometimes mark it with '<SNIP>'. For some reason, I did that in the quote from you above. It makes an interesting read, if seen as part of the text. Is this syncrhonicity (or synchronSNIPity)?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 04 2005 1:52:32 PM |
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roberto128
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2005 : 2:57:36 PM
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(David wrote snipped) about snipping:to Melissa.
At the same time though, no need to snip unless you feel 'called'. It's all about where you bhakti is taking you.
This is the key i believe to any advancements on this path. Bhakti. When you are called to advance you'll know it.Trust the inner workings and move ahead when you're called to....Adding the next piece.
Rob
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2005 : 5:58:10 PM
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Melissa and Others,
If you are holding back because of the fear of pain then I would suggest that you make the tiniest snip possible. You will find that there is no pain at all. There probably won't be any blood either or maybe one tiny drop. Later if you care to move forward with the snipping process, you will have an idea of what you are getting into. Really, piercing and tattooing is a much bigger deal than a little frenum snipping, so long as you approach it slowly.
Just like David and Roberto said, your bhakti will tell you when you are ready.
With Peace,
Paul |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2005 : 4:03:11 PM
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Congrats Melissa!
Make sure that you pull the frenum taunt before snipping. This will prevent that "rolling". I know what you mean though. It is kinda tricky to stay calm and focused so that you don't trim too much.
Once you make your first snip, your home free. You see that it isn't such a big deal.
Paul
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2005 : 8:36:05 PM
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I've been away for a few days and haven't been able to contribute to the frenum snipping (fripping?) conversation. Melissa - I'm glad that you jumped in! I too was reluctant to do so, because of the wimp factor, and because I felt like I didn't yet "deserve" to snip. I thought that I should first have to prove myself spiritually mature enough to enter into the sniphood, or something along those lines. But, as you found out, the pain and blood are minimal; indeed, it's rather dull. I'm now snipping every morning, as part of my practice, and taking bigger chunks, just to add a little drama. I'm a little closer to stage 2, and my ecstatic charge has most definitely increased, which I'm pretty sure is due to the bhakti involved in the whole process. Plz let me know how things progress, as we seem to be on a parallel course with bhakti and kechari, and who else are you going to talk to???  Not exactly cocktail party conversation.
BTW, I was at Burning Man over the last week. Did anyone else go? A moving, spiritual experience. I'd be curious to hear if anyone was there.
meg |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2005 : 10:59:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
I'm now snipping every morning, as part of my practice, and taking bigger chunks, just to add a little drama.
Wow! Looks like I'm not the only zip-snipper around here! |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2005 : 02:05:01 AM
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| Every morning? That sounds a bit too frequent to me. Isn't it better to let it heal first? Your bhakti must b e strong! |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2005 : 05:13:58 AM
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Hi
Today I have been by my dentist. She cut my frenum with a laser. You can feel the lasercut but there is not really pain. Even now after the cut there is no pain!
I think I will gain about one level in khechari. Thats what I wanted. Now the toungue can rest easely in khechari without a lot of muscelpower.
The rest of the journey can be slower. There is nomore hurry.
The next days I will upload some photos if someone is interested. But its nothing extraordinaire.
THANKS a lot to David who was a great guide, to yogani and all others!
@meg: Every morning? How does it work? Progress? Pain? ....
oli |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2005 : 09:12:40 AM
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Oli,
I would be interested to see the photos. Laser eh? Modern technology helping advance enlightenment of the earth! It's a beautiful time to be alive!
Paul |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2005 : 10:24:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by brauniver
Hi
Today I have been by my dentist. She cut my frenum with a laser. You can feel the lasercut but there is not really pain. Even now after the cut there is no pain!
Hi Oli,
glad to be able to help, and I find this development very interesting.
I'm curious -- How big is the wound, approximately? And how deep is the cut, approximately?
-David |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2005 : 5:46:35 PM
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Yup, every morning. It hurts just a tad, then by afternoon I've forgotten about it, and by bedtime it's healed, with no pain. What I noticed is that if I leave it alone for a few days, the next time I snip, I'm just cutting away at the callous that's formed. So by taking a few hacks every morning, I keep it going at a steady pace. Yes, it hurts in the morning when I lift my tongue, but I do it anyway, as I don't want the cut to fuse back together during the afternoon.
meg |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2005 : 06:02:40 AM
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Hi
Here http://wwwbrauniver.blogspot.com/ you can find images of the lasercut. (Click "Anzeigen" = show) The dentist cut about 2 cm frenulumskin.
At the moment Im not really able to do khechari. My tongue is moving only slow and with a lot of muscelpower. But for hours after the cut the flexibility has really increased. So I think I have to wait about one week and stop doing tongue exercises like milking etc to let the wound heal.
Fact is Im not able to levitate now and even being buried underneath wasnt great fun.
The advanteges of this practise is that I have saved time with this cut. With snipping it took me long time to come so far (2cm). But now on the rest of the journey there will be snipped.
Thanks to all guides and gurus
Cu
oli
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Edited by - brauniver on Sep 09 2005 11:16:24 AM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2005 : 09:20:08 AM
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Oli,
The sight that you posted a link for requires a username and password.
Paul |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2005 : 11:20:18 AM
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| It should work now. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2005 : 1:30:57 PM
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| Those are some great pictures! That looks like a very good and thorough method. I bet once it heals in a couple of weeks you won't be able to see that there ever was a cut. Don't rush stretching it now. Let it heal and then practice every day. Its nice to feel that I won't be so lonely anymore with kechari practice! |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2005 : 2:59:40 PM
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Gag!  I think I'll stick to my boring ol' morning snip, thanks just the same. Congratulations on the blood, Melissa. Let me know when you start using the garden shears.
m |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2005 : 2:09:46 PM
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Hello Oli,
nice pics. Your "before" picture shows a very definite frenal membrane, which contrasts nicely with the other picture you put up, in which the frenal membrane was almost gone.
It will be interesting to see how far you can stretch.
Anyone know yet if dentists in the US will do this without a "medical" reason? |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2005 : 3:11:08 PM
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| my dentist said that he was willing to do it. Its all up to the individual dentist |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2005 : 7:49:14 PM
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| To be honest, at the moment I can just do kechari at stage 1. In about one week I will start to milk and strech again and then I will see how it works. |
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Kechari - Why tiny little snips?
