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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 09 2014 : 12:30:44 PM
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HI Bodhi Tree
Perhaps one important issue to consider here is who's in control - It sounds like the drug addiction is in control in your brother's case. And Carson's drug use seems a completely different situation. I am as enthusiastic as you are about yoga practices and spiritual ecstasy, but I'm also often reminded it's a funny old world - we can be as selfish in our virtues as we can be in vice. My understanding is that Carson has chosen his path very carefully, fully considering the well-being of those around him. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2014 : 1:40:20 PM
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Hi Bodhi,
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
LOL. What's not loaded with personal baggage?
Well, once the baggage is looked at and owned, it no longer holds the charge it once did... and this is the end of bondage. At least for that issue. Was only mentioning that it seems as though the issue of drug use still holds a charge for you.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Aren't we all speaking from personal experience?
We should be, but often we all find ourselves speaking in absolutes and this is no longer in the realm of personal experience. Then we are in the realm of projection and imagination. This is what I see you doing with the subject of drugs and drug use. I see you laying down absolutes that are no longer in the realm of personal experience. You can't know how drugs will affect another or how they fit into someone else's path. Even saying that a 6pack of beer can not have the same effect on someone as doing SPB is unknowable and purely speculation. I'm not saying that it is *likely* I'm just pointing out that you can't *know* that and it is perhaps best to reserve judgement on what is the "best path" for another.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
However, just as blue is blue, and green is green, I find it important to be precise with matters of cause and effect.
Again, this is the realm of imagination only. You can't *know* what the result of any action or non-action will be. You can speculate and make predictions but in the end, Life does what it does and as you have often pointed out here at the forums, miracles happen all the time... so you can't have your cake and eat it too... playing the "cause and effect" card when it suits you and playing the "miracle card" when you want to take it to the transcendental level. But, if you want to get "surgical" here, I'm more than willing.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
There is some subjective observation to be made here about the effects of drugs and alcohol vs. the effects of "ecstatic" practices. While it is difficult to quantify these effects, I think we can still say with a high degree of certainty that drinking a 6 pack of beer is markedly different than doing a session of Spinal Breathing Pranayama. Namely, the detriment of the first is significantly higher.
Sure, I can admit that drinking a 6 pack of beer is likely going to have a different effect than a session of SBP. But how about doing a couple grams of mushrooms in the forest? Or doing a half gram of ketamine while going to bed one night? I personally know dozens of people who have not only ended up on the path because of doing mushrooms in the forest but have also continued to use psychedelics after getting on the spiritual path and have been successfully using them as a therapeutic adjunct to their practices ever since. I also know several people who have never done any yoga practices, are as "enlightened" (from my perspective) as anyone here, and have only used psychedelics (and self-inquiry) as their path. I'm not *advocating* any particular path (not yoga, not drugs... which I can see you probably think I am doing) I am only trying to state that what modality one chooses to use to further their own spiritual evolution is no business of anyone else's. I think that when we get caught up in advocating one path over another we have lost clarity. From my perspective it is best to refrain from judging and evaluating the effectiveness of someone else's path as it's impossible to know what someone else needs to "wake up."
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
I can stare suffering dead in the face and not flinch.
I've been there, and this is exactly why I had to stop doing yoga. If I am completely unflappable in the face of suffering then this indicates I've lost touch with my humanity and I am no longer "in balance."
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
I'm not trying to convince you to stop using drugs or alcohol, but for the benefit of other readers, I am making some clear delineations regarding cause and effect.
That's very noble of you but again you are in the realm of imagination. You can't know what will be of benefit to anyone. One of the most "beneficial" things that has happened to me this year was the death of my Grandpa. There is "benefit" in every moment if you are willing to look for it/use it. And this includes when doing drugs (including watching TV, going shopping, having sex, eating a brownie or anything else). Trying to set up the perfect conditions for waking up is a lost cause (on my path anyway). Best (again for me) to work with whatever I have in this moment.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
I wish for happiness for everyone, and the joy is that it's voluntary, but we can't just be lost in cotton candy land where nothing matters and all the details are inconsequential.
Exactly... and this is exactly what happens to me when I do yoga practices... nothing matters anymore and I'm eternally happy. But, this comes at a price, and for me the price was too great. My path requires me to be sitting in the mud and learning to love it. Floating past the whole scene on a cloud of bliss is not for me. If that is your path, then, well, lucky you I guess. 
Love,
Carson  |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 09 2014 1:52:13 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2014 : 5:14:22 PM
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@BlueRaincoat
That's a good point about control. The way I see it is that we only have a smidgen of control--about as much as a surfer on a big wave. Maybe we can make some small maneuvers, but the Big Wave is moving us. That is the mystery...the Source that cannot be isolated or identified. But we seek to unite with It nonetheless, and even attempt to master the riding of It, despite our naïveté.
@Carson
Yogani is quite clear about his platform here. From the get-go, he has stated these practices operate on a cause-and-effect basis. He's even called himself a "spiritual scientist". The essence of science is cause and effect, and experimenting with our options is how we learn.
The realm of imagination is where cause and effect cease to exist. I can imagine a land of dragons, but that will not de facto bring it into existence. But in my mind, I can break all the rules and enjoy the fleeting pleasure of eliminating karma in my imaginary world. That's not so in the reality of the physical world. That's not so in the reality of the nervous system either. Right?
Would it be relying on imagination to say that if I drop a stick, it will fall to the ground because of gravity? Of course not. This effect has been directly observed and experienced. Now, it's true that there may come a time when the stick may not fall to the ground, because even if the same event has occurred millions of times, the repetition doesn't guarantee it will occur absolutely. So, yes, I think you wisely point out the pitfalls of absolutism, but nevertheless, don't we have to work within the parameters of our understood reality?
But I guess we're just on different ends of the same spectrum. I'm leaning towards zealous pedagogy, and you're leaning towards laissez-faire nihilism. Hey!--at least we're in it together!  
P.S. Here's a cool video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S2wAjLwNUs
P.P.S. I applaud you for following your own path and using self-pacing in regards to refraining from yoga practices.  |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2014 : 09:14:56 AM
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I think cause-and-effect is something we probably all agree with, Bodhi Tree. The sticky point is that the same causes operate for all of us AYP-ers and then we get different effects e.g. why is it that some practicioners build up levels of energy they cannot handle? Yogani will very likely agree that consistency in the effects we get across practitioners is an important part of making yoga a science. That's why there is so much to learn from people like Carson who have a great many years of practice under their belts. Until we can have enough controlled randomized studies around yoga practices, a good collection of case studies like the ones emerging on this forum is priceless.
So thank you again Carson for your thorough answers to my questions.
Love to you both |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2014 : 12:18:18 PM
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| Well said, BlueRaincoat. Thank you. And thank you Carson for your fearless honesty and transparency. That's why I like engaging in these lively discussions with you. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2014 : 12:29:55 PM
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Hi Bodhi,
I'm starting to wonder if you and I are actually having a discussion here as you didn't really address anything I said in my last post. I'm starting to feel more like I'm getting a lecture from you and that you aren't actually interested in discussing or finding truth here. That said, I'm willing to try one more time to discuss with you.
As BlueRaincoat says above, cause and effect is really not something I am saying doesn't exist... what I am saying is that when you try to equate the cause and effect of gravity with the cause and effect of using "drugs," it is rather ridiculous.
First, "drugs" can mean so many things to so many different people. Are we talking about drugs like (again) sugar, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, opiates and the whole lot, or are we only discussing hard drugs and alcohol? If so, what is a "hard drug" and who gets to define that? How about psychedelics? Do you *really* believe that there can be no positive effects from using psychedelics? Surely you aren't saying that you can predict the cause and effects of a particular psychedelic trip for a specific person and that it will always be harmful... that would be rather egotistical. And surely you wouldn't be saying, against all the scientific evidence *and* all the anecdotal personal accounts of how psychedelics have been spiritually beneficial for people, that the effect of using psychedelics is always detrimental.
So, if I can be so bold as to put words in your mouth, I imagine that you are saying that when faced with the choice of either using yoga as your modality for waking up or using psychedelics it should be a no-brainer and yoga should be chosen. If that is what you are saying, I'm not in total disagreement. That said, again, what is required for one person to wake up can not be known and everyone has their own trip (pun fully intended  ) Yoga is not healthy for me to do anymore... it is actually detrimental for me to do yoga as it makes me unbalanced. And I know that there are others who are having a similar trip to me in this regards. Psychedelics (although I only use them maybe once a year at most) I can still use with mostly positive effects. For me, I can get locked into a particular perspective at times. I see things very clearly from my perspective and from my view there are no blindspots... at least that I can see. Then I'll do an ayahausca trip or a ketamine trip or a mushroom trip and all of a sudden my perspective has been shifted 8 feet to the right and all the blindspots I have in my sober state become glaringly obvious. It's painful as fu$k and it takes me months to work through all the perspective blockages that were noted in the trip but it is not only beneficial for me, it's critical to the unfolding process.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Yogani is quite clear about his platform here.
I understand that. I'm fairly well versed in Yogani's perspective on drug use as I've participated in this same discussion a half dozen times here at the AYP Forums over the last 8 years. But that is Yogani's trip, not mine, and not yours. Eventually you will have to look at your own beliefs here instead of laying your foundation on Yogani's platform. At least that is my experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
But I guess we're just on different ends of the same spectrum. I'm leaning towards zealous pedagogy, and you're leaning towards laissez-faire nihilism. Hey!--at least we're in it together!
I can definitely agree that we are on different ends of the spectrum but I would appreciate it if you didn't try to pigeon-hole my path by trying to define it... especially since I think you are way off in where you see my path on the spectrum. I don't take offense to you calling my path "laissez-faire nihilism" as maybe from your perspective that is how you see it, but, it's absolutely not even close to how it actually plays out so I hope you can refrain from trying to define it in the future. Thanks man, and all the best.
Love,
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2014 : 01:13:43 AM
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Greetings Carson,
From my view, your path is quite expansive, and cannot be pigeon-holed in the "laissez-faire nihilism" category. That was an attempt at humor, hence me also flipping the script on myself with the zealous pedagogy reference. I certainly wouldn't want to dish it out if I couldn't take it.
To be more precise in directly responding to your post (and avoiding the "lecture" posture), let me say that I believe a psychedelic experience can have positive results. My DMT trip certainly gave me a breathtaking view of a higher dimension with 2 angelic, cosmic beings who I was blessed to share space with. Of course, I had to return to my body and continue with normal Earthly life, and that has been the tricky part. I'd rather not have another grandiose preview; instead, I'd rather work towards a permanent pathway to have access to similar cosmic regions, and to come and go as I please. That's why I'm practicing cosmic samyama. 
I like what you say about establishing my own foundation, as opposed to relying solely on Yogani's platform, because I realize every fiber of my being must be transformed on an individual basis. No amount of regurgitation of AYP material will catalyze that, so thank you for the reminder. However, I do believe that an application of AYP practices (in tandem with my own custom style ) can take me all the way.. What do I mean by "all the way"? Well, nothing short of the cosmic consciousness DMT granted me, but without the need for DMT.
So, that's my ishta in a nutshell. I just watched a Bob Dylan interview, and he said that it's best to keep your deepest dreams to yourself, because they are fragile, and people will kill them. Maybe he's right. I'm gonna shoot for less talk, and more walk. Being verbally inclined and highly appreciative of fine language, this is a challenge.
On the note of fine language, let me once again say how much I admire your discourse, and your use of language in this public forum of self-inquiry.
Onward!  |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2014 : 12:44:28 PM
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Hi Bodhi,
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
To be more precise in directly responding to your post (and avoiding the "lecture" posture), let me say that I believe a psychedelic experience can have positive results. My DMT trip certainly gave me a breathtaking view of a higher dimension with 2 angelic, cosmic beings who I was blessed to share space with. Of course, I had to return to my body and continue with normal Earthly life, and that has been the tricky part. I'd rather not have another grandiose preview; instead, I'd rather work towards a permanent pathway to have access to similar cosmic regions, and to come and go as I please. That's why I'm practicing cosmic samyama.
So why did you decide to use DMT?
My reason for asking that is because I think that a lot of people tend to assume that people who use psychedelics for "spiritual reasons" are trying to find a "shortcut" to enlightenment. This seems to be your position and it also tends to be Yogani's (at least it has been in the past). This is definitely not true for me. Psychedelics allow me access to an altered state, giving me a different perspective on myself than what is generally available to me when sober. This altered perspective allows me to see my flaws and tendencies that are usually hidden from my view. This is not a "preview" of anything but a glimpse of myself with increased clarity. Using this painful glimpse as a roadmap for change, I can then begin to take action towards unwinding the tendencies I wasn't even aware I had when I was sober. This is not a shortcut, this is just another "tool in the belt" so-to-speak. I see no reason why I should demonize any tool, especially one as effective as psychedelics and especially if the only reason is because it's been that way forever and no one has taken the time to actually question why.
You mentioned that you would rather work towards attaining permanent access to the cosmic regions. So what if you HAD permanent access to the cosmic regions? Then what? Personally I have been able to astral travel and traverse other dimensions at will for years. And psychedelics (specifically ketamine) is what created the basis for this "ability" and then yoga practices set the ability in stone. But for me, astral traveling and extra-dimensional explorations don't interest me even slightly anymore. Now it is all about the Earth realm. From my perspective we start by coming to Earth believing (at least most of us) that we are human beings... we then eventually learn that we are much more than human beings... then once that knowing has "dropped into the heart" the next phase seems to be coming back to our humanity, with a new understanding of who we really are, and we begin to unwind all the nasty little human tendencies that we have been carrying with us since the birth of the planet. It all seems to come full circle eventually and it doesn't appear that any "step" can be skipped or glossed over.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
I like what you say about establishing my own foundation, as opposed to relying solely on Yogani's platform, because I realize every fiber of my being must be transformed on an individual basis. No amount of regurgitation of AYP material will catalyze that, so thank you for the reminder.
You're welcome. I have been in a place myself where my entire vocabulary, all of my "understanding" and even my "teachings" were all basically regurgitation of Yogani's material. And it wasn't until it was all literally ripped from me (Life has a funny way of forcing what needs to happen if we resist long enough) and I was forced to float in the unknowing and learn to be okay with that. I do find that I have occasionally tried to unconsciously build a new foundation on something, but that too has always been ripped from me in time and I am left floating once again in the unknowing.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
However, I do believe that an application of AYP practices (in tandem with my own custom style ) can take me all the way.. What do I mean by "all the way"? Well, nothing short of the cosmic consciousness DMT granted me, but without the need for DMT.
Well, that sounds like a worthy goal, and I hope you achieve it. Personally I am not allowed to have "goals" anymore as they turn out to be "too much attempted steering" but I hope you achieve all of yours.
Love,
Carson
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 02:02:23 AM
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You know, it's funny, I'm sitting in the living room with one of my brothers, and I just read your most recent post aloud, and he started laughing and said: "I like this guy. This is exactly what you need to hear." LOL. Good times.
Incidentally, I used DMT about 7 years ago because I had a neighbor who was praising it as a gateway to deeper perception of Self. I had done LSD and mushrooms before, so I figured I'd give it a shot.
Well, I'll just quote a beautiful Blind Melon song called "Change":
"Keep on dreaming, boy, because when you stop dreaming, it's time to die."
And, might as well add Yogani: "Dare to dream, and dare to act on your dream."
P.S. I'm all about "on Earth as it is in Heaven", so any journeys to outer reaches of the cosmos are imbued with a desire to bring it back home. We can make this place a paradise. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2014 : 11:58:21 AM
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Thank you Bodhi and everyone who has contributed to this amazing and beautiful thread, especially to Carson for creating it. Gratitude overflows. It has helped me on my path more than words can express
love
parvati |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2014 : 6:08:27 PM
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