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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 10 2008 : 1:09:53 PM
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from what I am gathering, reading on here, yoganis book and some other books it seems that some gurus dont believe in sin, and the concept of right and wrong. so if there is no such thing as sin or right and wrong, then what is karma. If someone kills somebody that will be on their karma and they will have to fix their karma and may suffer because of it.
thanks
Neil
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2008 : 02:18:01 AM
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Karma is attachment (to desire) and thus is suffering. When you see the attachment as illusif, there's no longer a question of right and wrong. When one is in "higher states of consciousness", one no longer takes credit for said "good", the attachment simply isn't there, it's "bigger than you".
As for the bad... attachment feeds the bad stuff. And your attachment is your karma. God or consciousness, or whatever you wanna call it, has a way of teaching us what we need when the attachment is still there.
"bad" is simply the seed for "good"... if that makes sense in a way. It's a very non-linear beyond the mind sort of perception.
I don't really believe there's such a thing as "debt" when it comes to karmah. Ego has no beggining, enlightenment has no end. |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2008 : 03:41:06 AM
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Here's some Osho stuff I was just reading, thought it might help with the answer you're looking for:
(it's from his book Death is Divine)
The difference between criticism and condemnation is subtle and if it is not understood there can be misunderstanding. Buddha criticized and so did Mahavira. Christ criticized and Mohammed also. There has never been a master on the earth who did not criticize. What is the difference?
The difference between criticism and condemnation is subtle. Sometimes condemnation can
appear like criticism and sometimes criticism can appear like condemnation. There is a very close
relationship. Their form and color are similar but their soul is very different. Criticism is out of compassion, condemnation is out of hatred. Criticism is to awaken, condemnation is to destroy. The objective of criticism is discovery, the objective of condemnation is to demolish the other’s ego, to cover them with dirt, to trample them underfoot. The objective of condemnation is to deliver a blow to the other’s being, to wound. The objective of criticism is to seek the truth. The diamond has fallen in the dirt, how can we wash it, how can we cleanse it.
Criticism is utterly friendly, no matter how hard it is, still it contains friendliness. And condemnation, no matter how sweet it is, no matter how pleasant it is, contains poison. Poison can be given only covered in sugar.
Condemnation arises from egotism: I am greater than you, I am going to make you look small.
Criticism is not concerned with the ego. Criticism is not concerned with me versus you.
Criticism is an exploration into what truth is, into how is truth is. Criticism can be very hard because a sword sometimes must be used to cut falsehood. There are stones of falsehood so the hammers and chisels of truth have to prepare them.
Ultimately Gorakh is making blows with hammer and chisel. And after Gorakh comes Kabir who
keeps a sharper blade – on his sword there is more of an edge. Kabir’s blows are such that they
cut to bits. But they don’t cut you to bits, they cut your falseness. When you attack a thief it is condemnation and when you attack stealing it is criticism. When you start hating the sinner it is condemnation and when you hate the sin it is criticism.
A yogi cannot condemn. Only a completely unconscious person enjoys condemning. What is the
psychology of condemning? Most people in the world have fallen into condemning. What is its
psychology? Its psychology is clear and very simple. Every person wants the status for his ego
that I am the greatest. It is very difficult to prove this. It is difficult to prove that I am the greatest because everyone else is trying to prove it. And they are all trying to prove only one thing that they are the greatest. How many people can be the greatest? Such fierce fighting ensues that it is almost impossible to win. Who can win? Every person will fight against billions of others. Defeat is certain.
In this, all will be defeated. In this, no one can ascend. So the mind finds an easy remedy. The mind says: it may be difficult to prove that I am the greatest but it is easy to prove that no one is greater than me.
Remember it is always very difficult to prove the affirmative of anything. A negative statement is
always easy. For instance if you want to prove that god exists it is very difficult. Your life will have to pass through the fire of austerities. Even then it is unknown when the proof will happen – in this lifetime, in many lives? But that god does not exist can be proven right now. There is no problem.
Only a little skill in argument is needed. To be an atheist is not a matter of great proficiency, of great intelligence. The most idiotic of idiots can be an atheist. |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2008 : 03:46:22 AM
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oooh, I had to add this part. Explains that last paragraph way too nicely haha. There is a famous story by Turgenev: THE GREAT FOOL. In a village there was a fool. He was
very upset because no matter what he said people laughed at him. People had decided he was a
blithering idiot. Even when he said something right people still laughed at him. He lived cowering,
not daring even to speak. If he didn’t speak people laughed, if he spoke people laughed. If he did
something people laughed, if he didn’t do anything people laughed. A monk came to the village.
That night the fool fell at the monk’s feet and said, ”Give me some blessing. is my whole life to be
spent shrinking and cowering like this? Will I die a blithering idiot? Is there no way I can become a
little intelligent?”
The monk said, ”There is a way. Follow this sutra: condemn everything.”
He said, ”What will happen through condemning?”
The monk said, ”You do it for seven days then come again to me.”
The fool asked, ”How should I condemn?
The monk said, ”Whatever anyone says make a negative statement. For instance if someone says
look what a beautiful sun is coming out, you say what’s beautiful about it? Prove it. Where is the
beauty? What beauty? It comes out everyday, it has been coming out for billions of years. It is a
globe of fire – what beauty? If someone says look Jesus’ words are so lovely, you immediately jump
on him saying what is so lovely in them? What is so special about them? What’s new in them? The
same thing has always been said, it is all thrashed over. It is all stale, all borrowed. You just deny.
Someone says, looking at a beautiful woman, what a beautiful woman. You say: what of it? So what
if her nose is a little longer? So what if her skin is a little whiter? Lepers are white too. What beauty?
Prove it. You demand proof from everyone and remember to always remain in the negative. Put
them in the positive, you remain in the negative. Come to me after seven days.”
After seven days when the idiot came, he did not come alone, many had become his disciples. They
came on ahead. They had hung flower garlands around his neck. A band was playing. He said to
the monk, ”The device worked. The whole village was forced to be silent. Wherever I went people
lowered their heads. The news spread among the people that I am a great genius. No one could
win against me. Now what should I do?”
He said, ”Now don’t do anything, just remain with this. If you want to save your intellect never fall
into the positive. If someone speaks of god then immediately bring in atheism. Whatever is said,
always make a negative statement. No one will be able to defeat you because to disprove a negative
statement is very difficult. To prove a positive statement is very difficult.”
To affirm god great intelligence is needed, a very subtle sensitivity is needed. Total wakefulness of
the heart is needed. A purified state of consciousness is needed. A little light is needed within. But
to deny god nothing is needed. In denying god there is no commitment. This is why people in the
world condemn. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2008 : 6:16:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tubeseeker
from what I am gathering, reading on here, yoganis book and some other books it seems that some gurus dont believe in sin, and the concept of right and wrong. so if there is no such thing as sin or right and wrong, then what is karma. If someone kills somebody that will be on their karma and they will have to fix their karma and may suffer because of it.
thanks
Neil
Hi Tubeseeker:
The implication is not that the kind of action we undertake doesn't matter. Certainly it does, and the longer we have been meditating, the better we come to know that from within. It is the rise of evolutionary conduct (yama and niyama) directly from inner silence. With inner silence (the source of all morality) the message comes very quickly, and we find ourselves adjusting our conduct accordingly.
Before then, conduct will be regulated by whatever conscience we have, our willpower, and the laws of right and wrong in religion and society. All of these serve a purpose. However, distinctions of that kind are often on the level of mind, and are therefore subject to misallocation and abuse, as is so often the case where people are judging each other from artificial ethical platforms -- "good and bad," "winners and losers," "sinners and the righteous." It is the division of humanity, which is directly opposed to its unification. This is how many well-meaning systems have gone wrong. The way to fix it is by bringing in more inner silence through the people on all sides, i.e., more people engaged in daily spiritual practices, regardless of religion, culture, or position in society. It has been improving that way for some time, and there is much further to go.
Regarding karma resulting from past harmful actions, there are many ways that karma can unwind, depending on how much inner silence is coming up in the person. Karma does not produce fixed outcomes, as is often believed. It is highly variable, depending on our own spiritual condition. The choices we make about our spiritual path and our practices can dramatically alter the effects of our karma. All karma can be transcended and put to good use. The AYP Bhakti and Karma Yoga book goes into this in some detail. There is an excerpt from the book on the transformation of karma in this post.
Other excerpts from the book (text and audio) can be found here.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2008 : 8:18:16 PM
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thank you for your reply yogani and divines. Divines, your reply has helped me to better understand discernment, and I liked the part about the fool, but I thought it had some problemss witht he way it was said, the grammer and the tone
Thanks for the insight on karma yognani, I still have more to understand, as is the path.
thanks
Neil
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right and wrong/ karma
