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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 01 2008 : 2:58:56 PM
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I recently had the opportunity to observe how my mind affects the outcome in a situation. It wasn't a single episode, but a series of events, and I watched it all unfold, more or less helplessly. It was extremely painful to see how my mind fabricated a story based upon past experiences, how my negative expectations tainted the present experience, and finally how the pattern of pain was repeated, affecting the present and the future. The most painful part was that I was hyper-conscious of everything that I was doing, and still wasn't able to stop the train wreck.  I effectively created my own fear-based, worse-case scenario, and in so doing opened a vein of suffering that I wrongly thought was buried long ago.
What I possess now that I didn't have long ago is a huge inner reserve for dealing with this kind of suffering. I have deep meditation for silencing the mind (which is on a roll, as you can imagine), a degree of inner silence for refuge, and the tools of self-inquiry to help me slog my way through and discover the "who" that is suffering. I also have by now shelves of spiritual books to turn to for comfort, but in spite of all this, I'm in a significant amount of psychological pain.
I very clearly understand the concept behind "The End of Suffering", namely, that it's found in identifying with the witness rather than the ego or limited self. It makes perfect sense to me, I'm all over it, but there is no relief from the inner turmoil and mind chatter. "I", whoever the hell that is, am SO ready to release from identification with the illusory self and to find Selfhood in the witness. But how to get from here to there? Identifying with the witness is the key, but one must have a fairly significant amount of inner silence in order to hop on that train, don't you think? Even a few prolonged gurgles of inner silence haven't been enough for me to make any attachments to being That. Detaching from deeply entrenched pain is an enormous feat, and there needs to be something equally compelling to take its place. Either that or an act of grace.
For any of you who have found identification with the witness and a reduction of suffering as a result, I'd so appreciate your pearls of wisdom. How did you make the leap from limited self to identification with the witness? Magic bullets aside, was there something that significantly awakened you to the identification? And do you now experience a separation from emotional pain? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2008 : 4:03:21 PM
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Noone can make you realize anything for yourself, but we can hopefully help to guide you towards finding the answer within yourself. The best advise I can offer you would be this:
Ask yourself in your next meditation session, "Why am I suffering?"
Hopefully this will help to lead you through the process of understanding that there is no such thing as suffering at all. There are only thoughts of suffering. Noone can realize for you that you are allowing yourself to feel this way, but that is the truth. It pains us all (I'm sure) to know that you are suffering, and I for one will pray for quick relief for you, but truely only you can grant that for yourself. You will be in my prayers.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2008 : 7:16:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
I recently had the opportunity to observe how my mind affects the outcome in a situation. It wasn't a single episode, but a series of events, and I watched it all unfold, more or less helplessly. It was extremely painful to see how my mind fabricated a story based upon past experiences, how my negative expectations tainted the present experience, and finally how the pattern of pain was repeated, affecting the present and the future. The most painful part was that I was hyper-conscious of everything that I was doing, and still wasn't able to stop the train wreck.
Hi Meg,
I've been down this road, but only a few thousand times… My heart goes out to you, what you are going through is never easy, I will certainly add my prayers for you along with CarsonZi.
quote:
I effectively created my own fear-based, worse-case scenario
The pain from these things can be so intense. Two years ago I went through my personal "worst-case scenario" and in the end, I survived it and learned a lot. Don't get me wrong, it was certainly emotional hell at the time, but I primarily learned it wasn't as much as a nightmare as I thought it was going to be, but this of course was in hindsight.
One thing I noticed while going through it, in the moments of intense pain, I had to mentally travel to the thoughts about the incident, to move my awareness to them and dwell in them in order to feel the corresponding pain. I noticed that if I stayed present with myself and didn't let my mind wander back to those thoughts, I didn't suffer. This isn't a solution, just an observation.
The advise to stay with the pain with awareness certainly works in the long run. In that moment of watching the pain, you are witnessing. To be truthful, I often found this method to be unbearable at times and far too slow for me, I wanted the suffering to end right away, so I would turn to inquiry. As long as I was still in pain, I realized that there were still thoughts that needed looking into and I usually didn't stop until I had most of them and I felt significantly better. Not sure what method you use or if you are a fan or not, but asking Katie's 4 questions and turnaround certainly got me through much suffering.
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I very clearly understand the concept behind "The End of Suffering", namely, that it's found in identifying with the witness rather than the ego or limited self. It makes perfect sense to me, I'm all over it, but there is no relief from the inner turmoil and mind chatter. "I", whoever the hell that is, am SO ready to release from identification with the illusory self and to find Selfhood in the witness. But how to get from here to there?
No short or simple answer, you are clearly on your way. By your desire, by your daily consistent practice, by your use of inquiry, and unfortunately also by living through some personal hell, the last part can't be denied and all sincere seekers will face their inner demons at some point. It is how we set ourselves free, not always fun, but seemingly worth it in the end.
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Identifying with the witness is the key, but one must have a fairly significant amount of inner silence in order to hop on that train, don't you think?
The witness is what we are, but we are identified with many things that take our attention and keep it occupied, preventing the resting of attention with what Is, with our pure being. So as long as thoughts grab our attention and prevent it from resting with What Is, it is difficult to recognize where we emanate from. The process of "un-identifying" with our beliefs and realizing we are not thoughts like believing we are stupid or fearing we are incompetent, thinking we are someone or something special or thinking things like we are a good or a bad person, etc. letting go of these leaves the mind free to be as witness. Then the suffering ends (as you know). It is not done overnight unfortunately, slow and steady, suffering periods shorten and things become easier. We can only go as fast as we can handle.
quote:
Magic bullets aside, was there something that significantly awakened you to the identification? And do you now experience a separation from emotional pain?
It is an on-going process of falling into thoughts and beliefs, suffering and then un-identifying. Over time, more resting with what is and more recognition as being nothingness looking out of these eyeballs here and now. Pain is still there, it comes along, it is seen, but doesn’t last for long, the culprit thoughts easier to spot and clear. Pain isn’t so difficult to bear, not seen as such a big problem, so there is pain, I still am.
Just keep plodding on, one foot in front of the next, it can be a lonely journey, fortunately it gets easier.
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matangi
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 01:22:03 AM
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Dear Meg -
My heart goes out to you....I'm 3 months beyond some deeply painful events in my own life. I don't know if my experience really speaks to the questions you ask...my way of perceiving tends toward the simple but pain is pain and maybe something I share will fit for you. I probably was not fully identified with the witness at the time of my crash but I was and had been living for at least a few months with more peace, greater energy, and unflappable joy not for any other tangible reason than my consistent practices. My practices were basic - SBP, meditation, samyama - and I loved them most of all because of how good life felt between the practices.
When my crisis started I was truly amazed to be watching it, feel concern, and yet be most aware of and centered with the peace. For several days this maintained but as things fell apart and I felt demolished by pain....the peace became barely known, barely felt.
I continued my twice daily practice....with all my heart I yearned to be the peace again so that I could more easily watch the pain. No so easy at all and more often my meditation practice became long sobbing sessions. Maybe I simply needed to surrender to the pain and honor that....so I would cry and then breathe and mediate but it was still very difficult. I felt a disconnect. In meditation I asked what would help. For me, I received clear indication that for now I needed to do a 40-day mantra practice (2 hours daily)...and I did. Because I had done this practice twice before, I was familiar with it and I think that was comforting. Because the practice is not so strict that it required me to sit the entire 2 hours, I sat for a bit of time and continued to mantra while doing mudane tasks around the house before leaving for work in the morning. I continued my ayp at night to the best of my ability....sometimes it was an honoring of only a few minutes with tears streaming down my face.
Yet - ever so gently the ebb is turning. I've been back to twice daily ayp for about 3 weeks now. My energy is returning. The light is back. Today I've been awash with the most beautiful realizations of love....things I try awkwardly to put into words...I am that that I have been looking for....I am love....and divine....we all are. In a quiet way, my heart is bursting but not from pain....from love.
Yesterday at work I was reading Yogani's Self Inquiry book and the tears flowed - again. Not as intense...and yet, the pain is there. I let it pass through....I don't dwell....I don't hook into the stories....I allow the momentary truth of the pain....and also know that it is less than it was. I'm feeling the peace return and whether that is getting closer to the witness....maybe, but I really don't know. I'm cautious about labeling too much with my mind.....I'm simply happier. And I'm filled with deep gratitude.
At the point of my crisis when I lost the peace...my ground...my connection with life beyond living, I felt distraught trying to understand how it could happen. Why did I lose it and why could I not just pop right back into it? I don't completely know....
The best advice I have is simple and really not too focused on being witness. Be easy with yourself. Cry and cry some more....just try not to hook into the stories that turn the pain to suffering. Find ways of comfort and use them. Don't push too hard for anything right now. Continue some form of your practice even if it has to be less for awhile....
This too shall pass.
My best to you, Meg, during this painful time.
-kathy |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 07:22:00 AM
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Thanks so much for your responses & prayers. It's helpful to hear your experiences and how you handled them (and struggled). I've been reflecting on the nature of suffering and how specific it is; how many times have I listened to a friend cry their heart out over something that I could easily perceive was empty - just thoughts! And yet even though I know my own suffering is made of the same stuff, I treat it as though it were real.
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
One thing I noticed while going through it, in the moments of intense pain, I had to mentally travel to the thoughts about the incident, to move my awareness to them and dwell in them in order to feel the corresponding pain.
Great insight - thanks. Yes, I now notice that it takes a considerable amount of energy to keep the most severe pain activated. This is my specialty, actually - finding the sharpest thorn and leaning into that.
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Not sure what method you use or if you are a fan or not, but asking Katie's 4 questions and turnaround certainly got me through much suffering.
A friend took Katie's course and used the 4 questions on me a few times. I found it very helpful, but was always a little disappointed at the end of the questioning, since I had nothing left to work with.  Which is the point I guess - that which my mind is working with is empty. A simple "can you absolutely know with certainty that this is true?" is generally enough to disarm me, for a while anyway.
quote:
...and unfortunately also by living through some personal hell, the last part can't be denied and all sincere seekers will face their inner demons at some point. It is how we set ourselves free, not always fun, but seemingly worth it in the end.
Is this true? That we have to regurgitate our personal hell over & over in order to be set free? How many times? And why? See, I just don't get why it has to be so excruciating. Difficult I could understand, but is it really necessary to bring utter despair into it? (Pardon the histrionics..) Why must freedom from suffering be such a difficult passage? And for so many who are not on a spiritual path, completely unattainable? I love the passage in Yogani's Self-Inquiry book where he says that if we're asking the question "Why me?" we can be sure that we're identifying with our pain rather than the witness. I simply don't see the point of making the relief to suffering so difficult to reach. Like placing a bottle of aspirin on a mountain peak. Why not make it a little more accessible?
Anyway, thanks again everyone...your responses are very reassuring. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 10:48:48 AM
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Hi Meg,
Sounds like right now you are doing some heavy lifting. I've done a lot of it myself.
Or maybe it is more like a marathon run and you are hitting "the wall."
Yesterday, I was going into a meeting and my office manager told me I had some mail and it wasn't good and that she would tell me about it after the meeting. My mind immediately went to the worst possible thing it could be because of the heaviness with which she communicated this.
During the meeting my mind would keep going back to it over and over and I was convinced that it had to be this one thing. Then towards the end she let it slip what it was and I thought, "Thats all? Sheesh, you would thought somebody died or something the way you said it."
However, during the meeting I took it as an opportunity to self inquire and let go. I watched my mind do its thing and my presence was contracting and expanding as it would keep coming up and I would again let it go.
Before she spilled the beans I came to the decision to tell her not to tell me what it was unless there was something I could do about it over the weekend. If not, then, OK, fine. Save it for Monday. I would deal with it then, what ever it is.
Geez, you would think she would have the good sense to at least not to bring it up until after the meeting. 
But immediately after she let the cat out of the bag I was laughing at the complete fabrication of the worst case scenario by my mind. The stark contrast of the actual piece of bad news and the one that my mind immediately leapt to was there with complete clarity. The confirmation of myself as different from this mind activity and the identification of it as such and the realization of the utter falsehood of it helped increase and strengthen my discrimination between the "I" and the "not I" and gave me a good laugh.
Life is so serious.
Oh, well, faked out again.
The invalidation of all mind stuff. Just more emotional and intellectual mind stuff.
So much for that. It sounds like you have a good ability to hold things at arms length and it is being expanded right now.
And another thought. I don't look upon it so much as identifying with the witness but more as being the witness. To me, it is more dis-identification or detaching from what I am not, not identification with what I am. I already am what I am.
The reason I wrote all this is that I thought I was in for some marathon heavy lifting myself. Well, good luck with yours.
Best, yb.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 10:59:09 AM
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quote:
Is this true? That we have to regurgitate our personal hell over & over in order to be set free?
I don't know if it is absolutely true, simply an observation about my own path. Sometimes living through particular situations seems to be the only way to expose unbalanced perspectives to ourselves, otherwise we would never know about them. Fortunately, as Yogani points out, all the practices make it a far less bumpy road. On occasion a life issue comes along that rattles me, I wasn't aware that the issue would affect me the way it did until I experienced it. Once I get the idea that there is some clearing to do, I'm pretty pro-active, since I'm not into suffering, if I can avoid it.
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How many times? And why? See, I just don't get why it has to be so excruciating. Difficult I could understand, but is it really necessary to bring utter despair into it?
Keep in mind that it is our free perspective of said events which dictates our suffering. No one is bringing despair into it, we choose to despair based on our perspective on what is happening. When looked at closely, we realize that our despair is based on false ideas about what said events mean for us. One person’s personal nightmare can be a minor blip to someone else.
quote:
(Pardon the histrionics..) Why must freedom from suffering be such a difficult passage? And for so many who are not on a spiritual path, completely unattainable? I love the passage in Yogani's Self-Inquiry book where he says that if we're asking the question "Why me?" we can be sure that we're identifying with our pain rather than the witness. I simply don't see the point of making the relief to suffering so difficult to reach. Like placing a bottle of aspirin on a mountain peak. Why not make it a little more accessible?
This made me laugh out loud, I love the aspirin on a mountain peak analogy! How many times have I asked myself this question, actually just again a couple of days ago. The answers that keep coming back to me is that it took a lot of effort in the form of many, many actions and time to delude ourselves hence the need for time and right effort to undo the delusions in the opposite directions. The other primary answer that comes when I ask this question and I have observed this in myself and others, is that psychologically (and physically) we can only handle so much change in a given time span. Physically the effects of going too fast can easily be felt, burning or emotional turmoil etc. Mentally it can be more subtle, going too quickly can unhinge our sense of understanding of life, it can make things seem pointless or scary because they no longer make sense. The mind needs time to be at ease with our new perspectives. A third answer that comes, much more abstract, is that it takes time so that we can enjoy and appreciate the awakening process. I guess we'll only know if this one is true once the process completes itself.
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Edited by - Anthem on Aug 02 2008 11:17:32 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 12:51:00 PM
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Hi Meg,
It is wonderful to be able to watch the mind when it spins its stories isn't it? You have identified the hardest thing there is to identify.. "It was extremely painful to see how my mind fabricated a story based upon past experiences, how my negative expectations tainted the present experience, and finally how the pattern of pain was repeated, affecting the present and the future.". Once you have seen this truth, you can now start identifying and isolating the mind stories.. and when you see through the story nothing can touch you.
Not identifying with the stories and not and getting pulled into the story is a learning process. One thing that can help is dropping.. when you feel yourself getting pulled in.. refuse to believe the story the mind is making and keep telling yourself, this too shall pass.. I am going through an emotional roller coaster, but none of the stories my mind is spinning has anything to do with what I am feeling right now. Consciously drop stories. "I wish I wasn't feeling this", drop.. by drop I mean ignore the mind, divert the mind, think of something else. Soon there will be the next thought, "life is so unfair because.." before the "because" drop.. think of something else, next thought, "this should not be happening..." drop, before the mind attaches an explanation. It is a very mental process.. but a process that exhausts the mind. And if the mind succeeds in pulling you in, tell yourself.. the feelings I am feeling are only purification, it has nothing to do with all these stories. The more you believe in that.. the less you analyze it in your mind, the less you discuss it with a friend, the less importance you give it.. the quicker it will dissolve.
I have been practicing this for awhile now.. and would like to share an experience I had. I hope you wont mind me using your thread to do so.
I have gone through many years of my life felling sorry for being treated very harshly and unfairly by someone. I have told people, I can forgive everything, but can never forgive and forget the way I was treated by this one person.
Recently I had to be with her for a month again. I was dreading it. I did not want to experience this again. My memories of her and my imagination of what it would be like, made me sure of how miserable the month would be.
However it turned out to be an amazing trip.. a trip that made me realize.. there really is very little me left... and how much of our conditioned uneasiness/discomfort behaviour is dependent on memory and imagination... when in reality.. in the moment.. there is nothing wrong when the mind is not there to interpret it. . Sailor Bob's title, "What's wrong with right now, unless you think about it".. cannot be understood with words.. it needs to be experienced.
While there, I had written this about my experience:
"My trip here has been the biggest eye opener ever. All my ego fear and doubts was in my imagination. Whatever little I suffered back home, thinking of how awful this trip was going to be.. was nothing but memory and imagination. This has been the most aware and problem free trip I have ever had. Anytime someone said anything to hurt me.. it has just flowed right through.. because there is no longer a "me" to get hurt.. and when the "me" is not hurt.. I can answer very calmly and I don't have any suffering (most of the time, and once in awhile, when there is a "me", it dissolves very soon).
They too cannot continue for long.. because egos cannot dance on their own.. they need a partner.. and when there are no ego reactions from this side.. just a very calm answer.. all they can do is accept. I have had no trouble at all. At first I found myself going into a protect mode.. but soon I realized.. being open and upfront about everything was the only way to go.. just tell what I need to tell with zero fear and hesitance.. zero ego (and you can tell it is zero ego when there is not analysis in your mind of good and/or bad, not a thought of wow I handled that well, or could have been done better.. just absolute presence.. it is exactly what is happening this moment.. could not be even a tiny bit different)... and wow.. the results so far have been amazing!!!!!"
The one thing I had not realized is how much I have changed. It was amazing being in her presence and not feeling even a bit of flutter with every word she uttered. The words were the same, the actions were the same, every thing that would set me off in panic and would make me cry and wish she would not be so unreasonable were still there, except, none of my regular reactions were there. I felt hollow. Nothing stuck. Everything just flowed right through.
Now I was listening to what she was saying and not what my mind thought she was saying. My mind did not judge her words and evaluate the meanness and analyze all the double and triple meaning each word uttered may have. They were just words that came form another human (it was like watching a movie with the mute button on.. when you don't hear the words and listen to the background music and special sound effects.. you don't get pulled into what is going on on the screen). It was amazing. By the end of the month, I actually saw compassion in her I did not see before. I saw her for what she was, and not what my mind had decided she was.
When ego drops, there is no one left to evaluate/analyze, and you experience truly what is going on at the moment. And the most awesome thing that happened, all the memories I had of the past mental abuse and trauma had no meaning anymore, because now I could see every action ever taken was she being herself.. it had nothing to do with me.. because the me does not exist when the mind/ego is gone.. and then all the stories that things should be different are gone.
When people said to me before "everything is perfect as it is".. At first I did not get it.. then I got it intellectually.. it is about loving "what is".. you cannot change "what is".. so best to accept it and love it.. but now I have lived it.. the need to wish anything to be different has no meaning, because it is here now.. it is what it is.. and if my mind does not evaluate it as good or bad.. it just is.
Really all there is to do is meditate and let the silence move out into the world. Practice identifying and dropping. Once you see through the shallowness of a mind a story, you just cannot get pulled into it. Make it a part of your life.. every thought, emotion that comes up.. see through it and drop. This goes for extreme happiness too.. because there cannot be one without the other. There cannot be a high if there is no low, there cannot be a peak if there is no valley, there cannot be extreme happiness if there is no sadness.. it is when you live centered, you feel love and compassion for everything around you. Nothing will phase you.
When your mind has lost it's power, there is nothing left to evaluate, then everything just is, and the desire to change what is or wish anything different goes away. All the suffering only exists in the mind. You don't have to accept something that is not just/fair, and yet without a story, you can speak your mind and not suffer. There are 2 distinct things that happen, your silence guides you to take the right action, your mind jumps in and attaches stories. It is just a matter of practicing being with the silence and saying bye-bye to the mind.
Sorry for the long post.
Thanks for listening.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 6:18:34 PM
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Wow, Shanti. Amazing how this woman who brought you so much irritation turned out to be your most excellent teacher. Thanks for your insights, and I hope that when I grow up I'll be able to incorporate them. :) I'm feeling pretty infantile at the moment, but as you say, one must stoop to these lows in order to fly to the peaks. Your path is an inspiration.
YB - what a hoot - thanks for sharing. I too have a knack for dialing into 'utter disaster' mode, when 'slight inconvenience' was all that was needed. It's funny to watch when it happens...um...usually.
I have to say that I've enjoyed reading about all of your past disasters...makes me feel like I'm in good company as I lick my wounds. |
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Razza
7 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2008 : 04:13:13 AM
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This thread is amazing. Recently, today actually, I experienced for the first time absolute presence in my social circle. The thoughts and reactions that arose in the moment, I was able to watch without becoming, and without going onto my head for my mind's assistance, I was able to consistently reframe my thoughts, such as: "If I could not think this thought, how would I be?"; and whilst staying present, I was able to add value to conversation (we're all guys in our late teens and young 20's), it was amazing to witness the power of God pulling everyone else out of their own mind games, helping others unidentify with their own suffering.
I thought it was a beautiful thought--with my own presence I can serve others whilst serving God and maintaining my own integrity.
A huge problem (or a problem I used to identify with) was approval-seeking behaviors. I was sort of an awkward kid, grew up to myself. It took a toll on my social life--I didn't "think" I could be on the same level as a lot of kids I knew and hung out with. It was liberating to witness how my own mind was the culprit, not them. Some strong patterns still affect me and cause suffering, but then again I'm 19. I feel fortunate to experience truth at this age of my life. My future will be shaped by it's influence.
Thank you for your thoughts.
-Ryan |
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How to identify with the witness?
