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zzzMonster
Singapore
38 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 22 2008 : 02:42:15 AM
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Hi, after 10 months of practice,I have just recently begin to witness. During meditation, do I concentrate or witness the mantra?
Thanks :) |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2008 : 07:14:56 AM
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Hi, nice to hear about your progress in meditation!
For me, there is no mental concentration on the mantra - it's more a witnessing of it, a noticing when it comes. I may start it off by will a few times in the beginning, but then it's a mere witnessing when it comes now and then... in any form - more clearly voiced or just hardly sensed as a faint "knowing" of the mantra.
During practices there's never any forced attention or concentration... just a gentle favouring of coming back to the mantra in whatever way that feels most natural and relaxed. For me there was a great shift when I stopped doing the mantra, and instead the mantra was doing me...  |
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zzzMonster
Singapore
38 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 02:38:36 AM
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Hi, thanks emc, but yogani says that the sound of the mantra is important. By witnessing, will the sound (not the thought)be effective?
Confused practioner!!! |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 03:48:38 AM
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| It is the sound vibrations of the mantra (though you just say it silently in your mind, not out loud with your voice) that is the operational part of the mantra, that's true. But the vibrations will be finer and finer. Sometimes the mantra will just be very, very faint, like a light sense of... not even a buzz... but... just... a vibe... yes, just a vibe and a knowing that that was the sense of I AM that came... and that is enough. In fact, Yogani often says "less is more" and I have found that to be very true about the mantra. The fainter it is, the deeper I go... In Secrets of Wilder it is expressed as "not saying it outwards, but inwards". It took a long time before I realized what that meant in practice and not just in theory, but when that inward sucking pull comes, the mantra just swooshes me away with it! The witness is always the one that is aware of whatever happens in meditation (and otherwise)! It notices and knows "Mantra loud" "Mantra soft" "Mantra faint". It is just there watching all the time no matter how the mantra is, it knows what happens to your body, mind and emotions meanwhile etc... It's just being there... knowing what's going on. That's what a witness does. Just witnesses whatever goes on... |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 10:17:28 AM
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| The appearance of the witness is something fairly new for me too. Rather, my awareness of it as 'witness' is what's new; the experience isn't. When I first realized that the experience of samadhi that I've been having for a while was a Presence, and that it was actually watching me and waiting for me to realize it, it was a profound moment. My mantra just stopped spontaneously, as all attention went toward the Presence, and it stayed that way for a while, until I 'remembered' the mantra, and then I took it up again. So that's my way of dealing with it - let the mantra naturally drop away, and pick it up when you remember it again. If it starts to feel like it's actually in the way, just let the I AM fall away for a while. For me, it's sometimes more authentic to let it drop away during a meditation, and just sit in watchful silence for a while. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 12:51:26 PM
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Hi Meg quote:
The appearance of the witness is something fairly new for me too. Rather, my awareness of it as 'witness' is what's new; the experience isn't. When I first realized that the experience of samadhi that I've been having for a while was a Presence, and that it was actually watching me and waiting for me to realize it, it was a profound moment
I love this, it is the sort of thing that has happened to me many times and I'm sure happens to others too.
We can be in profound states and have profound experiences and not "understand" much about them.
Then we might suddenly realise that "oh yeh, that's what they were talking about, I actually know that quite well"
To me it reinforces the necessity of "understanding" and is one of the reasons this forum is so great - it gives understanding to our experiences.
As you say it can be a profound moment when we realise that an experience we have been having has another dimension to it and it is through further understanding of the same experience that we seem to jump into another level or dimension of it.
It also makes the experience more solid and less likely to drift out of our awareness. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 1:39:14 PM
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| I agree with that, Sparkle. If I'd never heard of the 'witness', I think I'd still have eventually figured it out. I'd have called it something else maybe, as 'witness' doesn't really fit the bill for me. But what we call it isn't so important. I agree with you that we definitely benefit from knowledge, as it often speeds things along. One could argue that I was influenced by the power of suggestion, but honestly, it simply never occurred to me that what I was experiencing was the 'witness' that everyone talks about. I thought of it as an 'experience' (something that was happening to me) and then I was suddenly aware of it being a conscious Presence (something that was watching me). I immediately re-read Yogani's Self-Inquiry book, and it all made sense. As much as these things can make any 'sense'. :) But I still don't have the gut intuition that 'I am That'. Do you? Does anyone reading this? For me, it's still a Presence that's quite separate from me. That is That, but for me it stops there. Everything stops there, including thought, and including the mantra. I anticipate (and can sort of understand) that as it expands, I'll come to realize that I'm That, but I'm not there yet. |
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 9:12:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
But I still don't have the gut intuition that 'I am That'. Do you? Does anyone reading this? For me, it's still a Presence that's quite separate from me.
Hello, Meg... I've only experienced the witness a few times since I began practicing AYP, and it's been quite a while since the last time now...
I did feel the separation you mentioned, but I felt that 'I' was the one observing and the body was the separate presence. Rather, whatever was animating the body was the separate presence.
It was amusing to just watch my body walk around the kitchen and make a PBJ sandwich without any effort on my part. It felt like I was possessed, and that it wasn't "me" doing all the actions my body was carrying out.
I did feel like I could intervene at any time and take control of my body, but it was quite a pleasant experience...
Love to all
cosmic |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 11:25:37 PM
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"But I still don't have the gut intuition that 'I am That'. Do you? Does anyone reading this? For me, it's still a Presence that's quite separate from me. That is That, but for me it stops there. Everything stops there, including thought, and including the mantra. I anticipate (and can sort of understand) that as it expands, I'll come to realize that I'm That, but I'm not there yet."
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think it's such a subtle experiencing of now, that to see it in the "gross" is a bit more clunky. I like daily mindfulness when doing regular activities for helping that along though, and at moments, "the witness" will just sort of blanket over me unexpectedly.
I never really seperate "the witness" from everything else though. I mean, like any meditator, I'll say certain experiences are more in touch with it, and in a way it's true. Though it's not so much a state I'm after, more a way of being. Heaven's grace to leave me with certain beautiful states though... I can't complain haha, and they help out the way of being :). |
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zzzMonster
Singapore
38 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2008 : 07:50:10 AM
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Hi, thanks everyone for their comments. It is getting a bit off topic. I am not talking about the witness that cosmic_troll is talking about, the sense of bliss, no - not that.
Although I also experience the bliss, I am talking about the mantra seems detached like an object - AKA dawn of the witness,
My qn is should I allow the mantra to be detach or purposely concentrate on the mantra ?
It has nothing to do with faint or clear.
Thanks again everyone for their contributions. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2008 : 09:26:04 AM
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I'm sorry, I don't quite follow you then, zzzMonster, and am not able to meet your question. For me there is always an attention on the mantra. Perhaps that is what you mean by purposely concentrate on it. That's what we do in meditation, no matter what quality the mantra has. Who is putting the attention there? The witness! Always has been always will be - just that... before I used to think it was "I" - the personal identity who kept the focus on the mantra. Somewhere along the road it was experienced as if it is "the witness" that has this constant focus. Well... the witness is the only thing we've ever been, is now and always will be since it is out of time. So it's just a shift in identity of who's having that attention/focus/knowing/witnessing of the mantra...
For me... there's no sense of "detachment" when I go really deep - there's not two things happening: a mantra and a witness. Then there's only One thing happening and I AM the mantra as well... |
Edited by - emc on Jul 25 2008 09:30:23 AM |
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zzzMonster
Singapore
38 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2008 : 2:11:01 PM
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Thanks for your ans,emc,that was insightful.
Since we are the witness, we just let it be detached?(ie concentrated by the witness not the mind) |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2008 : 6:49:21 PM
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Hi Meg
quote:
That is That, but for me it stops there. Everything stops there, including thought, and including the mantra.
Yes. That is that. And indeed....this is as far as the me can follow. So no wonder it stops here. It always will.....since it is nothing other than thought/image. Me is forever happening in that. It is confusing isn't it.......for a long time i expected that when the revelation of true identity happens.....it would be me that realized it. But this is not so. That which is... is simply aware of itself. And since the me - per definiton - is a contraction/limitation of attention into thought and images......then how can a limitation ever realize that which is vast....that which permeats it.....? It cannot, can it.....
Once this is really understood....once we experiencially see the mistaken identification with the limitation......then everytime the presence is witnessed; we gradually stay with it instead of listening to the talk about it.....the analyzing of it. We let ourself stay as larger than those thoughts. This is what the presence is already for you, isn't it?....You experience it as larger than you. Now we can gradually let go of the me.....since now we see what we can give it to (the presence)...we choose to not attend to it inside. We relax instead. Gradually - although it is always instantly and never anytime else - we stop paying so much attention to the authority of the me. We let go of ourselves.....and relax into the presence instead.
It can also be said in another way:
It is not that I (the me) am that. It is simply that that is all there is.
The more the presence is chosen....the larger the eye of the witnessing. This identity (the witness) - it is indeed an identity.....it is an amness....a being - is so different from anything we thought it would be. It is impossible to think up something so ailien - and yet so familiar - you just have to give it time to sink in that this is our true nature. This is what is alive. Not me. I begin by trusting that this is indeed so. And continue - by staying with this identity more and more often (that is why I say it is gradual - the revelation is instant......but the integration is gradual)...simply get to know it as the true self. It becomes intimate with itself again.
quote:
For me, it's still a Presence that's quite separate from me.
Yes. But now - that the trust grows with experience - it is revealed that it is the other way around. It is not that the presence is separate from the me.....it is simply the me that is the separation. The me - if followed with attention - is the fraction of the stillness. But only if followed with attention.
Just cherish the presence more than the me. Don't hate the me (I have been there) - don't get rid of the me.....it is absolutely not necessary to do that (besides it can't be done either)....let the me wander and do its thing if it has to......but treat it like you would treat any immaturity: Trust that it doesn't know better....and then simply don't act out all its whims now that you see the folly of it. Be overbearing towards it......look at it....smile at it.....give it the eye when needed......and then simply continue to stay where you are and let life live you. Life - not me.
Now you are that....instead of thinking you are not.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2008 : 8:21:04 PM
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Hi zzzMonster,
quote:
Hi, after 10 months of practice,I have just recently begin to witness. During meditation, do I concentrate or witness the mantra?
Thanks :)
The AYP lessons recommend to focus on the mantra when you realize you are off of it. Don't force any big effort of concentration, simply bring the attention back to the mantra whenever you realize you are off of it.
This daily practice is what leads to more identification with the witness.
Best of luck,
A
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 07:03:55 AM
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Katrine said, two posts up.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=4174#35747
I was nodding all the way down this post, it is great.
Recently there has been all sorts of deep strong feelings rising up within, sometimes I get overwhelmed by them, I fight them, analyse them, become tired with them.
But then, when I am quiet I remember the presence and, as Katrine suggests, I choose the presence.
Residing in the presence the strong feelings are taken by it and dissipated, dissolved. More of them come and more get dissolved.
I look for more because when I am like this it is a great opportunity to take on anything that comes, its like a great cleansing.
Many people experience the presence. People who don;'t meditate often experience it in church or in Nature. It is then another leap to understand what this precious experience means. The presence can be nurtured and developed and be resided in more and more. It can be chosen more and more as the natural state. A natural state of joy.
It doesn't have to be deep samadhi either, just a sense of presence, a sense of inner peace. The trick is to realise that this simple experience is it, and to nurture it and water the seeds of it, allowing it to become stronger and stronger.
One of the most effective ways of doing this is though the AYP practices.
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Witness and meditation
