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vinniebilt
4 Posts |
 Posted - May 21 2008 : 6:45:30 PM
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Hi all,
I got married recently and have discovered a lot of bad things (sexually) about my wife's past, lot of which she revelead herself and some with force from me. Being from a conservative muslim background we dont get to date much before marriage. Her past really came as a shock to me. She now looks sincere and wants to change but given her past and what I know about her nature, there is a very good chance that she might cheat on me in the future.
I may decide to give her a chance and trust her but all these events in my life have made me question the word "trust". What is "trust" really? When a person says "I trust you" to their partner is it not a selfish thing? If my wife likes sex a lot, why should I restrict her and expect her to have sex only with me? Is it not something selfish and something related to an unelightened state? Love is something that should accept the other person as he/she is and let them be whoever they want to be. yes? If your partner is drinking and spoiling their health and you are worried then it makes sense. But if they are doing something which they are enjoying and is not bad for them anyway but hurts you then should you stop them (ideally speaking)? Does such a thing hurt even an enlightened person? Why can't I give my wife sexual freedom and let her have sex with whoever she wants to?
Ofcourse my wife didnt ask for sexual freedom (nor am I ready to give it) and I really dont know whether she will take it even if I give her that freedom. But speaking from a discussion perspective, my question: isn't expecting a person to be sexually committed an aspect of unenlightened state? do even enlightened people expect sexual commitment in relations?
Also what do you think an enlightened person will do if he discovers that his partner has cheated on him and he knows she can cheat on him even in the future? Does he leave her? Does it hurt him or is he happy for her and allows her to be what she is?
- Vinnie |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 10:05:05 PM
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Vinnie said:
She now looks sincere and wants to change but given her past and what I know about her nature, there is a very good chance that she might cheat on me in the future.
Vinnie, why do you think there is a very good chance she'll cheat?
isn't expecting a person to be sexually committed an aspect of unenlightened state?
That's a very good question. I'm inclined to say 'perhaps', but then the question is somewhat academic if you aren't 'enlightened', isn't it? Human arrangements, and moral systems are not predicated on anyone's being enlightened. I can't take your wallet and say 'Hey, this is OK because if you were enlightened you wouldn't mind!'
Be careful about jealousy. I can't speak of your case directly since I don't know, but someone fitting your profile, including all questions you're asking and the way you're asking them, strikes me as possibly being more at risk from jealousy itself than from infidelity.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 21 2008 10:08:09 PM |
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vinniebilt
4 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 11:12:19 PM
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hi john and david,
i dont care if my partner has somebody before me. neither do i care abt my wife being a virgin. there are instances of infidelity in her past which i was worried about. there are other things too which i dont want to reveal in a public forum. anyway i am not as much interested in discussing about my situation as i am in starting an interesting discussion about "trust" in general. i am sorry if my initial post sounded as if i was asking for a suggestion.
let us continue the good discussion... |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 09:23:49 AM
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| Sorry about the unsolicited advice, Vinnie. I deleted my reply. For me, trusting one's partner (or friend, or whomever) is about learning to let go of control. Opening up and allowing a lot of space for the other person to be who they are, to make mistakes, to feel their own freedom without constrictions. Lack of trust results from grasping - trying to hold onto something or someone in a controlling way (generally the way that is most pleasing to ME). And grasping stems from fear of _______. So it always comes back to oneself: What am I afraid of? Why do I need my partner to behave in a certain way in order for me to feel secure? Ultimately trust has less to do with the other person than with oneself. I think an enlightened person would perceive her husband's infidelity (real or suspected) in a larger picture..."What is this bringing up for me? Is my love big enough to hang with this? Is it time for me to think about leaving him? What am I supposed to learn from this?" |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 10:19:15 AM
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Vinnie,
Infidelity in her past was (I am assuming) NOT infidelity against YOU, so that is not a reflection on YOUR present relationship with her--remember this; she chose to marry YOU, not the person she cheated against--that should tell you something, yes? I was married to my late wife for 33 years, and so I have much experience and expertise regarding marital relations, including issues such as trust and loyalty. Every marriage must come to terms with these issues or the relationship will unravel after some time. So let me give you the wisdom of my years:
We get married because we wish to share our lives with that person. We marry to make a life together, build a household together, perhaps raise children together. We marry to support one another's aspirations, encourage one another's dreams and bring one another happiness and joy. But none of these things can happen without total trust. Trust is built on sharing thoughts and beliefs, keeping faith with each other, staying helpful and sincere, and being completely open and honest. Trust is not a thing that one gets, or has, or that comes to you--it is something you build, and that needs constant maintenance and repair to keep whole.
My wife and I, throughout our 35 years together, had ups and downs in many aspects of our marriage--there were sexual issues, financial issues, career issues, childrearing issues, lifestyle issues--you get the idea--and ANY of these issues, when not worked on and worked out with trust, could (and occasionally did) lead to difficulties. Lacking trust in a marriage, one begins to feel hurt, abandoned and ultimately, alone within the marriage--and then the repair work becomes very difficult. When there is trust, when feelings such as "You aren't listening to me" or "You don't seem to care about this issue" or "You never help me out" surface, they can be honestly, openly, and most importantly, SAFELY discussed. Trust in a marriage makes the partners feel safe, and this feeling of mutual safety is what protects both the individuals and the relationship. Lacking the safety which flows from trust, a marriage will crack and crumble quickly.
The ultimate area in which we require trust, safety and a feeling of being valued and protected is in bed. Sexual issues go to the heart of a marriage, because this degree of intimacy has been agreed upon as belonging ONLY to the two of you. That is what you vow when you get married--to be loyal and true to your partner, and to forsake all others. If you accept your partner's vow to do this, then you have agreed that you trust her to uphold that vow. If you don't accept it (as it sounds like you are beginning to feel), then the very basis of the marriage is shaky. Your foundation is built on sand... And, lastly, to answer your question: "Isn't expecting a person to be sexually committed an aspect of unenlightened state? Do even enlightened people expect sexual commitment in relations?" In a marriage, sexual commitment is a small (but admittedly very important) piece of the total commitment we have made to the other person. Just because a person enjoys sex a lot does not free them from ANY commitment to the marriage and to their partner. You cannot GIVE your wife her sexual freedom--that is a totally sexist point of view. It's quite the other way around--she gives UP her sexual freedom in her commitment to you! THAT is her gift, her sacrifice to you, as it were. Bhakti--the state of devotion which ideally leads to enlightenment--grows from these sacrifices and gifts. Trust flourishes in the light of this giving, because true bhakti is giving with no expectation of anything received in return--selfLESS giving. The illuminated person expects nothing--from their partner or life itself--but by true devotion--to god, to your spouse, to true Love, to our path toward liberation--he gains everything. Thus, the basic premise of your question doesn't understand the nature of enlightenment and has little meaning...
Michael |
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vinniebilt
4 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 10:21:00 AM
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hi meg,
all of your suggestions are most welcome. i dont mind them. just wanted the discussion to be on the main topic so that it is helpful to everyone.
yes i understand very well what you are speaking of. very good points there.
- vinnie |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 12:16:03 PM
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Hi Vinnie,
Welcome to the forum.
I appreciate you asking this question, it takes courage to ask something that is creating an internal conflict. Our social conditioning makes us wonder if what is happening is OK to accept and let go... and yet somewhere inside there is a part of you that cannot believe the social conditioning can be right.. why would you judge someone for who they are? You may not realize, but you have started the process of self-inquiry in you. A beautiful opportunity has been send your way to learn. Like I said in another post.. life sends us many situations/opportunities to learn from, God gives us the freedom to chose if we want to use it to liberate ourselves or bind ourselves more to this world. With this question you seem to have chosen to learn. My hats off to you.
You may have heard "You have to earn my trust" (applies not just to partners, but children, parents, friends) . In reality the statement should read, "I trust you no matter what you do, because I love you, not what I or this world thinks you should be, but you exactly as you are." The only time trust is an issue is when someone is not behaving the way you expect the person to behave.. expectation! Not sure if you have access to these books, but if you do, it may help both you and your wife to read them. "Real Love" by Greg Baer and "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. If you don't have access to these books you can check out their website: http://www.reallove.com/about.asp , http://www.reallove.com/ , http://www.thework.com/thework.asp
I will try and explain why I made the statement above. But if you can read the books esp. Real Love, you will get a much better idea.
Mahatma Gandhi said: http://www.writespirit.net/authors/...pter_44/view "Even if the opponent plays him false twenty times," he writes, "the satyagrahi is ready to trust him the twenty-first time, for an implicit trust in human nature is the very essence of the creed."
All our lives we are looking outwards to change the world and control our environment so that we are happy. The only way to happiness is to make an internal shift. Like Gandhi said.. "We must be the change we wish to see in the world.". So in order to feel the trust, you need to trust completely... and let your partner know that. No matter what happens, you show her that it is safe for her to tell you. You give her that safe haven where she can be herself. Once she learns to trust you.. chances are she will never break your trust because she will know she can be herself and you will not judge her. She may try and test you.. but if you don't budge in your trust towards her.. and accept what she does as "herself".. and not and image you have of "her".. you will have more love and trust than you can dream of. The change needs to be in you.. she will follow. The whole world will follow. You see, when the internal shift happens in you.. then nothing anyone does can hurt you, because you are hurt only when you have expectations. Gandhi said "Nobody can hurt me without my permission." When you are in silence, when you are at peace with yourself, you can let others be themselves without judging or wanting it to be different.
Does this mean that she will change.. well, generally people look outwards for satisfying the something that they think they lack within.. they do this with drugs, alcohol, smoking, sex, etc. This lack is of "Real Unconditional Love"... by real, unconditional love, I mean being loved and loving for exactly who you/they are... not having to change to be what someone else wants you to be in order to be loved. Observe yourself for a day and see how you are a different person when you are with your parents, brothers/sisters, partner, friend, colleague, neighbor. You play many roles to make people around you happy, but when do you get a chance to be Yourself? If you get this (real love, chance to be yourself) from even one person, your interaction with the entire world will change. When you have enough of this, you don't need to look anywhere else to satisfy your desires.
Will your partner get this? Don't know, but I think everyone is looking for this in life. Real Love. Once you get a taste of it.. once you can drop all your guards and expectations and love with your being (be it a beloved(Radha to Krishna) or God (Hanuman to Lord Rama) or friend (Arjun to Krishna) or child (Yashodha to Krishna) or parent (Sri Ramakrishna to Ma Kali) or guru), once you get a taste of being yourself.. you can never "not trust" again. What is the worst that can happen, your partner will not get this and have sex with someone else.. I am not saying that she will, but this is the worst that can happen right? If you don't have a judgment about this.. there is no one to get hurt. You don't have to continue living with her, if that is what seems like the right thing to do at that point in your life, and yet if you have experienced real love, you can do it without being judgmental about the situation.
But for now, loving someone with your entire being will only help you. How? You learn to trust. When you learn to trust you learn to let go. You learn to loosen the tight grip you have on life. You learn to relax just enough for your true being, you silence to peek through. Once you have a glimpse of this silence, you can never be bound again.. because you know what internal freedom feels like.
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Edited by - Shanti on May 22 2008 12:36:17 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 6:31:25 PM
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Shanti, I'd just like to take this moment to switch "let go into change, into trust" into just plain "let go into who you are". To me that's trust, just trusting yourself that even when you don't trust, it's ok. It's just a ride you know? :).
I kinda feel you took an outside in approach, "trust others, and then trust yourself". Trust yourself... the rest will come. Trust your lack of trust... all of it. I don't mean to nitpick haha :). |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2008 : 08:06:17 AM
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Hi Divineis,
Did you read the whole post, or just the last paragraph?
I know it's a long post.. but if you read the rest of it you will see what you are saying and what I am saying are very similar.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2008 : 9:59:04 PM
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very good post, Mikkiji. I wanted to let you know people enjoy posts even if nobody acknowledges them.
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vinniebilt
4 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 4:43:19 PM
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Hi Mikkiji,
That is a very nice post. I am not sure if I understood all of it. Infidelity in her past is definitely not infidelity against me. agreed. But dont you think a person's nature can be an important factor too in predicting how she will be in future. Even if the partner is really good, still there are people who can cheat just because they are too selfish and dont care about their partner's feelings as much as their satisfaction. If I am really good and perfect, can I be assured that my wife wont cheat on me ever despite whatever her nature is?
quote:
And, lastly, to answer your question: "Isn't expecting a person to be sexually committed an aspect of unenlightened state? Do even enlightened people expect sexual commitment in relations?" In a marriage, sexual commitment is a small (but admittedly very important) piece of the total commitment we have made to the other person. Just because a person enjoys sex a lot does not free them from ANY commitment to the marriage and to their partner. You cannot GIVE your wife her sexual freedom--that is a totally sexist point of view. It's quite the other way around--she gives UP her sexual freedom in her commitment to you! THAT is her gift, her sacrifice to you, as it were. Bhakti--the state of devotion which ideally leads to enlightenment--grows from these sacrifices and gifts. Trust flourishes in the light of this giving, because true bhakti is giving with no expectation of anything received in return--selfLESS giving. The illuminated person expects nothing--from their partner or life itself--but by true devotion--to god, to your spouse, to true Love, to our path toward liberation--he gains everything. Thus, the basic premise of your question doesn't understand the nature of enlightenment and has little meaning...
Yes it is great if your partner "gets inspired" by your good behavior and changes herself and makes the necessary sacrifices. What if she is not inspired by your behavior to change herself? What if she loves you but still wants to have sex with other men. I dont really understand what's wrong in it other than the fact that I feel hurt. If it doesnt hurt me (post-enlightenment) why should it matter at all? She is afterall having fun and I should be happy for her, especially since it doesnt hurt me anymore. So as per you will an enlightened person leave a partner who cannot control her infidilety but is good to him otherwise?
- Vinnie |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 5:38:18 PM
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Shanti said: quote:
Mahatma Gandhi said: http://www.writespirit.net/authors/...pter_44/view "Even if the opponent plays him false twenty times," he writes, "the satyagrahi is ready to trust him the twenty-first time, for an implicit trust in human nature is the very essence of the creed."
I opened up the link you gave Shweta and had a read.
It's a long time since I read anything on Mahatma Gandhi. It was so refreshing to read, it really pulled every string in the harp of my soul.
His life really inspires me, his fearlessness, his uncomprimising non-violence, if I had a role model this would be it - at the moment!!
In a recent post by Katrine, she said you have to really "want it". I questioned myself about this and wondered!!. After reading about Gandhi however my bakhti has flowered again with inspiration.
This is a good backdrop from which to read Shanti's excellent post on "trust", it elevates the vibe to a different level from which a deeper appreciation can be gained - in my experience.
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 11:03:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by vinniebilt
What if she loves you but still wants to have sex with other men. I don't really understand what's wrong in it other than the fact that I feel hurt. If it doesn't hurt me (post-enlightenment) why should it matter at all? She is after all having fun and I should be happy for her, especially since it doesn't hurt me anymore. So as per you will an enlightened person leave a partner who cannot control her infidelity but is good to him otherwise?
If she loves you then she does not want to have sex with other men. If she wants to have sex with other men, then she does not love you--very simple, yes? And it DOES matter--VERY much, in whatever state of consciousness, because behavior is wrapped into karma, and karma drives us through life prior to our liberation and illumination. Love and devotion involve much more than fun or hurt or control or fidelity--you have a young immature and simplistic view of the many elements which all together make a marriage work happily. You view your wife, her past, present and future in a very limited and suspicious manner.
Here is an exercise to help you: Silence the endless thoughts from the mind--take your true Self away from your analyzing intellect. Close your eyes and open your heart--now, in the vast, infinite unbounded love you should (MUST!) have for her there, look at her. See her radiance and her devotion to you NOW and not whatever she may have done before she was with you. That is all nothing but the remains of ego attachment--throw that away. What is left--IN YOUR HEART--must be pure true love alone and nothing else--all else is ignorance. Now, in that state of bhakti for your wife, is the present moment of love for her and your future of trust and faith in her. No other reality exists between a husband and wife.
Michael |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 11:13:32 PM
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Of course you can construct whatever kind of open relationship you want. But if you are having a traditional marriage, you promise certain things when you get married, and it is not "enlightened" to break those promises or say it's OK for the other person to do that behind your back.
What is a marriage if not promises to be kept? If you allow her to sleep around, then what if you decide you don't feel like loving, honoring, and cherishing her forever either? Those are the kind of things people do before they are married, otherwise marriage has no purpose.
If you allow it, she will lose respect for you, and betrayal will creep into other parts of the marriage like a cancer. |
Edited by - Etherfish on May 27 2008 11:16:15 PM |
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What is "Trust"?
