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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
 Posted - May 11 2008 : 2:03:52 PM
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This just dawned on me.
You know how when we do something wrong against someone how utterly horrible it feels? Sometimes acknowledging the horror of the feeling does not happen right away when we deny the truth of the feeling. Allowing the feeling of our administering of abusive pain upon others can be very difficult to see and accept completely.
What dawned on me is that when we judge a situation outside of our experience we usually relate to the one who is the recipient of the abuse, and neglect to understand that the abuser suffers as well.
I wonder if sometimes the abuser suffers even more. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 2:36:14 PM
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It is a very uncomfortable feeling, indeed, to acknowledge the awkward feeling when we do wrong to another! Interesting topic, Alan!
The abuser suffers probably both from the wrong s/he is doing, and as a victim from the pain that originally was induced into him/her to enable the abuse to be transferred one more time in unawareness.
I was talking about suffering and compassion today to a friend. He said "If pain is love as well... then... nothing matters anylonger? It's all the same anyway..." And I heard myself saying: Oh, there is a meaning of pain: it gives birth to compassion! When we see clearly that pain is love and we don't suffer anymore - there is pain without suffering, we are able to feel the most tremendous compassion with those who still suffer. Without pain, there would be no compassion, and that is what drives us to "right" action, to diminish the suffering in the world. |
Edited by - emc on May 11 2008 2:37:42 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 3:18:28 PM
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:) yeah, I think heart energy, the way I feel it anyway, is a perfect example of that. That almost "painful" tugging that says "I understand. I'm here for you".
"What dawned on me is that when we judge a situation outside of our experience we usually relate to the one who is the recipient of the abuse, and neglect to understand that the abuser suffers as well." This is the story of my life... this last year or so haha. I must say I've learned a lot.
I mean, when you literally hear voices in your head of people talking "badly" of you almost non-stop for weeks at a time, it kinda dawns on you... "I was the hater... they're hating the hater(much of the content was stuff people were actually saying... I think... haha)"... and... when the voices won't stop "I'm hating the hate". It's just a big cycle that's gotta end somewhere and... like you said, it's done by allowing the feeling or thoughts... all that energy that was held back to just come forth, and you just face it, you take it one day at a time.
I came across this saying in a Zen "capping phrase" book about a week back, it kinda stuck with me: "fall down 7 times, get up 8".
edit: I realise I didn't really answer the main question haha. I'd say the suffering of the abuser = avoidance^3 whereas for the abused = avoidance. Until your view on suffering changes anyway. It's beautiful in it's own light... haha, I realise if I talked about this with most other people they'd probably go nuts, "SUFFERING, BEAUTIFUL? YOU're SICK".
... as you can see, I still look at the world a fair bit from outside eyes, and I suffer from this, it's karmah I "deal" with, but it's beautiful, it's what I know about loving here and now. haha, and here I am with outside eyes on my "outside eyes" ahhh... silly ego haha :). |
Edited by - Divineis on May 11 2008 3:35:04 PM |
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Nancy
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 11:38:29 PM
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Hi Balance
quote:
Originally posted by Balance
This just dawned on me.
You know how when we do something wrong against someone how utterly horrible it feels? Sometimes acknowledging the horror of the feeling does not happen right away when we deny the truth of the feeling. Allowing the feeling of our administering of abusive pain upon others can be very difficult to see and accept completely.
What dawned on me is that when we judge a situation outside of our experience we usually relate to the one who is the recipient of the abuse, and neglect to understand that the abuser suffers as well.
I wonder if sometimes the abuser suffers even more.
I think that the one who suffers more; is not always clean cut answer. The suffering and level of it is experienced differently for everyone, and even then differently again for that same person, depending on the depth of one's stillness and clarity.
At one point in my life I would of answered that the victim, or person being verbally attacked suffered more, as I was an extremely sensative person and only found my sense of self worth when others were pleased with me or I was in service to another. So when I had been verbally attacked, I used to let it knock me down so low you could of scrapped me off your shoe.
Now, the same "ME"... I can be verbally attacked, screamed at, threatened, etc, and I find myself not avoiding what is being said, but being able to cut right through it all and hear what is not being said, and feel so much compassion, love & sorrow for the other person. If I choose to respond, I simply respond to what I am not hearing.
On the flip side; the person being the "attacker"; can suffer different levels of suffering....
By witnessing the pain caused onto others; then crawl in a corner; beat your self up and lowering your sense of worth -
OR
taking responsibility, by owning your "STUFF" and go back to that person, communicate your awarness and take your garbage you placed in their yard out.
The more crystal clear I become (STILLNESS) - LOVE & UNDERSTANDING is always the final outcome.
Living in Love & Light
Nancy |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 08:32:29 AM
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| Nancy, it felt like that "either or" was directed to me. I got a bit of a "plexus hit". I don't usually like those... and I haven't slept all night cuz it's been bugging me haha, buuut... thank you :). I almost sent a sorry email to one person and I just found the contact info for another that I hope to talk to soon. (I'm still not sending that first one though, I wrote it out, but I don't believe in "either or's"... it's just a bit of an iffy situation). |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 5:02:30 PM
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I've been thinking about this topic and there's different aspects to it that have come up.
First, as far as our our true nature goes the events of abuse don't affect That. Those energies just play out in the field of awareness. There is no judgement from any individual being there.
Then there is karma. Who can even try to know the how's and why's of that part of the energy exchange, but that is of course wrapped into the events.
That brings me to the different layers of energetic exchange.
We have the physical body connected to the acting out of energy patterns.
The energy body has its play in the exchanging/holding/releasing of those expressions of energetic patterns.
Then there's the emotional/thought energy that has it's say in what's being shared. This is the level that we as average humans tend to deal with most. As we deepen in awareness and wisdom the subtler energetic play is seen and the outward and more individualized thought/emotion is seen to be surficial.
So there are different layers of feeling the energy exchange of abuse, or of any energy exchange.
Does this stuff make any sense?
What am I missing here? |
Edited by - Balance on May 12 2008 5:13:37 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 6:05:51 PM
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Wow! I just realized that the energy meted out goes right back into the same one, doesn't it?
There is a hardening of the harboring of the nastiness.
Something eventually must break.
And the one who "recieves" the abuse actually harbors their own energetic pattern.
So it is less an exchange than it is an interplay.
If that's the case, where did it begin? What is the origin of the pain? Does it all stem from contraction?
I may be wrong, but that is how I currently see it.
I'm just thinking out loud here. |
Edited by - Balance on May 12 2008 6:10:44 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 8:19:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Balance
Something eventually must break.
And the one who "recieves" the abuse actually harbors their own energetic pattern.
So it is less an exchange than it is an interplay.
If that's the case, where did it begin? What is the origin of the pain? Does it all stem from contraction?
I may be wrong, but that is how I currently see it.
I'm just thinking out loud here.
Yeah, I can't dissagree here, I'm not quite sure I understood the first 2 lines of your post though (the ones I didn't quote), but I'd say it's all contraction, seeing the self as finite (and resulting karma). Though forcing the "infinite" would be just as much contraction. I really dug how David Hawkins Power vs. Force deals with this sort of thing.
He speaks of linearity, how it's all the finite self knows really; A leads to B leads to C. Though in reality it's more of a "field of consciousness" with "attractor patterns" he calls them. Sorta like the idea of synchronicity mixed with the law of attraction. You can think of it as tuning into different frequencies, love, hate, jealousy, fear, though these frequencies are beyond linearity. Love... it's always there, the linearity comes in basically depending on how much darkness (lack, though not absence of love) there is. The feeling of lack is just the "attractor patterns" you have set up for yourself, your karma.
He can get really scientific haha, I only made it through 2 and a half of the 4 books of his I have, though I still very much recommend most any of his works (they tend to repeat themselves a fair bit from book to book I found though). |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 10:56:17 PM
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I'm not sure what I meant either with the first two lines 
I think what I was getting at with the post was that the energy might intermingle between people, but there is really nothing that crosses over.
I really don't know, just guessing. But what clues me is that one could express, say anger, to one person and it would affect a response, like maybe fear. But the same person's anger could be expressed to another that would have no fearful response.
In both cases the same expression of anger is the property of the aggressor, but the same energetic response is not experienced within the different recipients.
The anger might actually be diffused in the aggressor if absolute, overflowing Peace is the expression of the recipient. |
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Nancy
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 11:32:13 PM
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Hi Divineis
Isnt it funny how things hit us at times? No intention in my post was meant to be "directed" towards you.
quote:
Originally posted by Divineis
Nancy, it felt like that "either or" was directed to me. I got a bit of a "plexus hit". I don't usually like those... and I haven't slept all night cuz it's been bugging me haha, buuut... thank you :). I almost sent a sorry email to one person and I just found the contact info for another that I hope to talk to soon. (I'm still not sending that first one though, I wrote it out, but I don't believe in "either or's"... it's just a bit of an iffy situation).
I used to stay up all night with "issues", then through many years of personal growth corses I was able to get crystal clear on one main aspect of who is Nancy; the one thing nobody can deny or take from me is that I am LOVE. So I put 100% of myself into everything I do, everything I do; I do with passion & purpose. So when I lay my head down at night I rest easy.
Now, I am not saying that I do not speak "ugly" words or do not have arguments with others, but what has happened is I have allowed myself to be in charge and kicked my Ego to the back seat; so even in the heat of an argument I can tell you that I am clearly 100% coming from love. If you can understand that, it is a bit difficult to explain.
Regardless, the point I am attempting to make here is whether you feel like sending an email, writting a letter, or what ever your mind is telling you; the reality is, unless YOU have filled the pain in your heart with love all by yourself; your not going to find it by waiting for the other persons reaction, or respond to your email. You have to forgive yourself first, take that pain away and fill that space with love. There really isnt any healing for yourself by communicating to others. However you may assist others in healing by communicating... Then just move foward being clear that the"ugly" is not you... We are not our feelings, it is just physically impossible to be our feelings...It's our Mind / Ego, which is another whole topic...
Living in Love & Light
Nancy |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 11:58:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nancy
Hi Divineis
Isnt it funny how things hit us at times? No intention in my post was meant to be "directed" towards you.
quote:
Originally posted by Divineis
Nancy, it felt like that "either or" was directed to me. I got a bit of a "plexus hit". I don't usually like those... and I haven't slept all night cuz it's been bugging me haha, buuut... thank you :). I almost sent a sorry email to one person and I just found the contact info for another that I hope to talk to soon. (I'm still not sending that first one though, I wrote it out, but I don't believe in "either or's"... it's just a bit of an iffy situation).
I used to stay up all night with "issues", then through many years of personal growth corses I was able to get crystal clear on one main aspect of who is Nancy; the one thing nobody can deny or take from me is that I am LOVE. So I put 100% of myself into everything I do, everything I do; I do with passion & purpose. So when I lay my head down at night I rest easy.
Now, I am not saying that I do not speak "ugly" words or do not have arguments with others, but what has happened is I have allowed myself to be in charge and kicked my Ego to the back seat; so even in the heat of an argument I can tell you that I am clearly 100% coming from love. If you can understand that, it is a bit difficult to explain.
Regardless, the point I am attempting to make here is whether you feel like sending an email, writting a letter, or what ever your mind is telling you; the reality is, unless YOU have filled the pain in your heart with love all by yourself; your not going to find it by waiting for the other persons reaction, or respond to your email. You have to forgive yourself first, take that pain away and fill that space with love. There really isnt any healing for yourself by communicating to others. However you may assist others in healing by communicating... Then just move foward being clear that the"ugly" is not you... We are not our feelings, it is just physically impossible to be our feelings...It's our Mind / Ego, which is another whole topic...
Living in Love & Light
Nancy
Sorry to jump in here, but that's beautiful Nancy. I have recently noticed an emptiness and peace in the midst of anger. Like I am not the emotion, just watching. The emotion is empty and dissipates more quickly. There is also a backlash lately, like the anger will come up more forcefully out of nowhere and try to take control. It's like it is challenging me. I think that maybe I am reaching deeper levels of the emotion. |
Edited by - Balance on May 13 2008 12:12:51 AM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 12:44:50 AM
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| Thanks for the advice Nancy, yeah, I feel I've been more directed towards emotion lately, it seems there's always some sort of "spiritual project" going on in a certain direction. I'm like Balance, I feel I sway a lot between two worlds so to speak, I do my best to keep it one world haha, buuut... it just seems you go to one side, you get curious about the other side. For me it's... I feel I think too much, so I go towards a more "emotional feeling" and just watch that. But It's sorta like the silence in thinking is growing too. The thoughts might be there a lot, but lately I've been having a fair bit of energy coarsing up the back of my head, it felt like a split between the two hemispheres for a day or two, and for the last week, along with that, I've been having some "divine tinnitus" haha. I dunno, I feel this energy is really tied to thinking, and it kinda calls me towards nothing, it's weird. Letting my lower belly hang out while meditating has helped a lot with stillness too. I've cut down on that for now though, it's been affecting my sleep for a while now (gotta move meditating further away from sleep). |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 4:26:43 PM
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Oh boy! Duh! Now I get it. I keep forgetting. There is only one pain, only one body, only one Love. There is only forgiveness.
I mean, there are all of these bodies interacting, all of these different selves. But there is not a separation.
There is not a me and a you, there is not an abuser and an abusee, there is nothing but One Being experiencing all.
There is not a me hurting a you, or a you hurting a me.
Just the experience of life which is Love.
Now I can see how the pain of separation is also an expression of Love.
Ultimately there is only compassion in all of this. Just the beauty of life lived as one in the many.
The energy dance is all a dream.
We are all the expression of Love which encompasses everything. |
Edited by - Balance on May 13 2008 4:48:30 PM |
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Nancy
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 7:08:42 PM
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I am enjoying all these posts
What has helped me along some of my darkest roads, is the realization that it all begins with love and ends with love... I promise, take any situation and analyze it up, your answer to the equation will always be
Love = Love
When your stuck, and your answer isnt Love = Love, then you get to learn some more lessons... This life we live is probably just ONE small chapter of who you and I are.
Okay a little FYI - all humans, plants and animals are all made up from the same exact DNA... When I really became one with that, I really began to see one, not you and me, that tree, that dog, one...
Living in Light & Love
Nancy
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Nancy
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 7:20:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Divineis
I feel I sway a lot between two worlds so to speak, I do my best to keep it one world haha, buuut... it just seems you go to one side, you get curious about the other side.
You are swaying...we all sway; if it wasnt for the sway or going to the other side and check it out; where would the growth or understanding be?
To know GOOD, you must have experience BAD; like yin & yang; black & white; those are all simple metaphors, however when we come to the GRANDEST... To Know Love, you must have experienced HURT / UNLOVED; but take LOVE and break it down to all the levels and branches associated with it; so the hurt / unlove are the swaying aspects of what we are to learn.
I was & still kinda am in my head much and I realize that if I am to be completely in control of ME; then I must go as far away from my head as possible. So I started a book all about me, from as far back as I could remember, then when I get stuck, it helps to go back and read "My Life" & clearly see how much of my stuckness was an opinion I just made up as a child...nobody told me...BLAH BLAH... I made BLAH BLAH up....
Okay I must finish cooking, I can tell my husband is getting annoyed with this forum....
Living in Love & Light
Nancy
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Suffering and compassion.
