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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
 Posted - May 03 2008 : 2:05:37 PM
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Hello and how are you people. Nice to be back. I have been involved in other parts of my spirituality, and have not been on this forum in quite a while.
Well, down to business. Since I became a seeker about 3 yrs ago, I'd become highly involved and influenced with the eastern teachings and philosophies of alchemy like kriya, dzogchen, daoist etc.... But I always had one problem, that even though these systems were all powerful, they did not help one with their daily life, and I did not know which one was best for me. Man cannot live on bread alone, butman cannot also live without bread. Life can be a dangerous and rudded path and practicing yoga does not make ones life easier or safer.
When studying the teachings of Sri Aurobindo he says it's essential to yoga for the student to go through certain phases along his path of development. The first phase is Psychicisation. It is interesting when reading the tao te ching, that Lao Tzu stresses developing extra sensory perception in order to perceive the tao. It is said to go with the flow, but do we know which way it is flowing?
http://www.kheper.net/topics/Aurobi...isation.html
Psychicisation basically is a process by which the practitioner gets in touch with their higher self, in order to establish a contact with this being in order to serve as a guide in yoga. I never heard of this before and was intrigued by the concept.
What he says makes sense, how do you know you are really doing the right thing, following your dharma. What if you are slowing your progress down by doing the wrong thing right now. This wrong thing is called and intermediate zone by Sri Aurobindo. This intermediate zone is basically a time when little to no spiritual progress is achieved.
So I decided I need to start over again, and get in touch with my holy guardian angel, which is a projection of my higher self. Just like Yogani says, the Guru is within, but how do I get in direct contact with this being.
The first was the usage of an unlikely tool, a tarot deck. A tarot deck is a complex symbolic device designed to allow you to communicate with the atman via 78 archetypes. To learn more about how this AMAZING device works, click on the link below, and if you are interested, actually joining Michael Tsarion's mystery school. The price is 555.00, yes five hundred fifty five dollars, I know quite steep, but he is coming out with a book set as well that is drastically cheaper. I am a member of this school, and I must say, it's worth every penny. When you compare the cost of this mystery school to the price of how much is costs to go to a semester at college, this seems dirt cheap, and the knowledge life changing, unlike biology 101.
http://www.taroscopes.com/webstream...rvideos.html
The tarot deck is not a fortune telling device similar to how charlatans use it. This idea of the tarot as a fortune telling device is likened to how people think yoga is a form of exercise or tantra is all about sex, how little they see. The tarot deck tells the truth, plain and simple, it is not about right or wrong, it tells you what you need to hear, plain and simple.
The deck is also remarkably easy to use. The spiritual path has been known since ancient times to be the path of the razors edge, but how can you walk along this path with no map, compass, telescope etc...., you have to rely on the church or a guru to teach you what you need to know, and hopefully everything works out. This was not good enough for me, I had to know I was doing the right thing, and the tarot deck is the ideal tool for that.
Through the usage of the tarot deck, I have a much better perspective on what I should do. The responses of that the tarot deck are so simple and rich, and speak to the very heart of your being, it is quite remarkable that such a simple tool can be so empowering. Any student that is seriously interested in walking the path of the razors edge should have a guide. You would not dare drive to some distant location with no guide or map, and just hope you end up in the right place, then why should you do that to your life.
I believe it's necessary for any seeker to learn the skills of prognostication to walk the true path of yoga. Astrology is also a really powerful way to understand your karma and dharma, Yogananda's teacher was a powerful Jyotisha, and he guided Yogananda along his dharma. I am in the process of learning astrology at the moment, and although it's a lot more complicated than the tarot deck, the information is much further reaching and gives me a birds eye view. The tarot is like a compass, astrology is like a map, they work hand in hand.
In order to be a powerful adept, we must all develop our intelligence in a whole brain fashion. Combining both intuition and logic, Lao Tzu even stresses that intuition is a better tool, since the information is directly from source, rather than through the experience of making mistakes, which is time consuming and wasteful, but sometimes necessary. We must all develop Te, also known as personal power. If you are poor how can you help the needy and sick. The powers that be are able to do what they do, because most spiritualist although quite powerful in the spiritual world, are not powerful in the material world. This was not always so, look at the bible and see examples of yogis so powerful they could predict the future, heal the sick etc..., we must do the same thing, we cannot wait on a messiah, we must become the messiah, and save the world ourselves.
Well that's my 2 cents.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 5:22:26 PM
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I'm glad you are enjoying that path. It sounds complicated and expensive to me, but each person has his own way. That's what the inner guru is for, to show you your own way.
Just following the simple AYP practices in the main lessons is a different way to achieve the same things you mention, and could be better for some people who like things to be simple (and inexpensive). They don't necessarily make you powerful in a way that satisfies your ego. But they do put you on a path where you can be in alignment with everything including your inner guru.
Then instead of trying to be powerful, you just do what you do best, and sometimes you find yourself in a position where you have created a miracle, and you will say "OMG I can't believe I just did that!" Most people won't notice what you did. Sometimes a couple people will, and they will remark at your incredible "luck". |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 5:35:04 PM
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Good post, Etherfish:
VIL |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 9:05:46 PM
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What I am talking about goes beyond just yoga. I am talking about a guide in life. Should I buy this car? Can I trust this person? Is this spiritual path right for me?
AYP is not designed for that. AYP is a systematic method of alchemy from the vedic tradition. It has nothing to do with prognostication.
And as far as expense, most have spent thousands upon thousands going to traditional schools and colleges, to pay 10x that just for prerequisites. 555, might seem expensive, but you cannot put a price on the ancient arcane knowledge. The average computer costs more than 555, the tarot deck is an ancient computer of unlimited wisdom, how much would you pay for unlimited insight and knowledge?
When people wanted to learn yoga in the past, they often had to sell all their possessions just to afford the trip to be able to visit these masters. When people went to Egypt and the Himalayas, they risk life and limb for the arcane wisdom, and you say 555 is to much, haha. If you knew how to utilize the tarot deck, you would think it was cheap. Since I have began using the tarot deck, my life has become exceeding easier and more efficient.
It might seem expensive, but how much does it cost when you buy a bad car? How much does it cost when you move into a home with problems? How much does it cost when you trust someone you should not have? The cost of 555 seems small considering the fact that with this tool you can always make the right decisions in life.
The power I speak of is not the corrupting power, that is actually force. The power i speak of is the one spoken by lao tzu in his exposition called the Tao Te Ching. When you have power, the whole goal is to spread that power to those that have none, Yogani displays this power, he has shared the gnosis of yoga with you. Without power centers like Yogani, spirituality would not exist, we cannot all be followers, some of us have to be leaders, inventors, and innovators. We have to develop our abilities to attune to the Tao or Brahman if you will to be able to get real gnosis or veda. We would not have yoga if the Rishis did not develop their psychic power to sense the knowledge of Brahman.
Michael Tsarion's mystery school is designed to allow a seeker to have a tool in life that allows one to make the proper choices in EVERY aspect of life not just spirituality. Everything from finding your ideal mate, to job selection, health etc..., the applications are limitless.
How can you have time to meditate and study yoga if you can't afford to eat, have a good place to sleep, afford to buy Yogani's books? Unless you want to live a monastic or acetic life, in that case you will rely on donations to survive. Spiritual advanced become exceedingly difficult when we are over burdened by the stresses of just everyday living. If you had more free time and more money you could have more time for meditation and spiritual study.
For example. I wanted to go to a dinner party with some friends of mine, I consulted with the tarot deck before I decided to go, it sounded like a lot of fun. Upon receiving a reading, the tarot deck advised me not to go, I was a little up set, but I declined the invitation. No more than 3 days later I found out that there was some sort of contamination in the drinks at the party and everybody got food poisoning. Some people had to go to the hospital, and spend hundreds of dollars to get I.V.'s due to dehydration. Will ayp give me the power to be able to protect my health like that, of course not, nor was it designed to.
If I didn't have the deck, I would have gotten sick, and would not been able to meditate for a couple days, and disrupt my practices. If you read Autobiography of a Yogi, prognostication like the tarot and jyotish can be used to save your life.
"The pain which is to come can and should be avoided"
- Patanjali, Yoga Sutras 2:16
This quote comes from the grandfather of yoga. He and I have the same philosophy, and if you truly wish to study yoga, you too should study prognostication so you can learn to handle your karma, before it handles you.
Here is an article from Autobiography of a Yogi that shows the importance of prognostication on the path of yoga.
http://www.ananda.org/inspiration/books/ay/16.html
If you wish to close your eyes and walk through the dark, that is fine, to each his own.
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Edited by - Gnosis on May 03 2008 9:27:01 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 10:46:47 PM
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Gnosis wrote:
"What I am talking about goes beyond just yoga. I am talking about a guide in life. Should I buy this car? Can I trust this person? Is this spiritual path right for me?
AYP is not designed for that. AYP is a systematic method of alchemy from the vedic tradition. It has nothing to do with prognostication"
AYP doesn't advertise prognostication because that is a side effect, not a goal.
But it answers all those questions you posed.
I only do the two simplest practices from AYP, the meditation and spinal breathing, nothing else. And I get answers to every little question I have about life, clearly and quickly. I don't know if they come from my inner guru or God, or where. But every two or three weeks I have what I consider to be a very important question that I can't find the answer to and I ask, and I get a clear answer either immediately, or within a couple days for the harder ones. major questions that guide me in my life.
If it is like you said, "Should i go to this party?", the answer is immediate,
and usually I don't even have to put it into words, I can feel whether I should or not. That comes from meditation. The answers are easy to get, but you have to quiet your mind to tune in to them. |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 02:37:25 AM
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I think that's great meditation has developed your intuitive intelligence, but how many people on this forum can say the same thing? Think of how many people meditate around the world, if that were the case all mediators would be powerful psychics, is this the case? Dean Radin has throughly investigated many meditators for psi abilities, most people meditators don't possess any more psi than average people, most of the time. This is because meditation occurs in the alpha range mainly, and psychic abilities like claivoyance usually occur in the delta range like with remote viewing.
I fully agree with you that the potential exists, but most people have not developed such gifts. It takes quite a bit of practice to get to those levels to reveal information like the Rishis, the powerful yogis that revealed the Vedas and the Upanishads. The Rishis found astrology so useful they decided to make it part of the curriculum of Indian study, its one of the limbs of the 6 Vedanga.
I am also a remote viewer so I know that it's possible to render information from the mind only, but it takes tons of practice to make it reliable, the tarot is a great tool to use WITH yoga not in replacement of it, just like a computer has helped with your yoga via this forum, you have found this forum helpful, why not a tarot deck? The tarot deck is a simple tool that can give quick on the spot answers, and it's so simple even a child could use it, until one develops the ability of the inner light, which makes technologies like astrology and tarot obsolete, but this takes years and years. Just like after you reach enlightenment, meditation is obsolete, it doesn't mean that it's not useful or that you can't still enjoy it.
It takes a long time to develop siddhis, for instance if you could fly, you wouldn't need a car, does that mean you would abandon using your car right now, of course not, you are at the level where a car will still benefit you. Many enlightened masters never attain siddhis like J. Krishnamurti, yoga is not a guarantee to develop clairvoyance or psychic abilities, that's why divination exists.
Some people have naturally more intuitive abilities and develop the skill quickly (you may be in this category), but others never get them, and others it takes a long long time, so what do we do until then?
Tarot works in tandem with spiritual alchemy, which is why in Egypt astrology, magick, and alchemy were taught in tandem, they work together as a system. By using the tarot deck you get a more immediate relationship with the inner guru, it's nothing more than a mirror into the self.
The tarot cards are likened to a mantra. A mantra is a tool used to still the mind, but after the state is achieved, you disregard the tool and enjoy the bliss, same thing with tarot, once you have used the deck to get into a more intimate relationship with your inner oracle, then you can disregard the tools. Only when one has finished their journey can they abandon their compass and maps.
We make important decisions everyday that can have drastic consequences, you never know when your karma will come to fruition and cause suffering. With tools like astrology you can predict your karma and with the usage of yagyas, pujas, and yoga etc... to neutralize bad karma, or increase favorable karma.
I don't wish to argue this point, but even the avatar Lord Krishna consulted jyotish scholars, there is no doubt about it, prognostication can benefit anyone of any level of attainment, unless you are greater than Lord Krishna, then I apologize. You can disagree with me all you like, yogis have been using prognostication for millenniums, this is a fact, so there must be some benefit. Many yogis were also great astrologers like Mahesh Maharishi and Yogananda's Guru Sri Yukteswar
If I am wrong so was Yogananda, Patanjali, Krishna, the Dalai Lama, and Rama. All of these great gurus used and benefited from astrology, but I don't know, maybe you are more powerful than all of them, which may be the case, but I doubt it.
If you don't want to benefit from prognostication like astrology and tarot that's fine, but many many great Yogis have and still do, and will continue to.
Astrology is a HUGE part of Indian culture so much that traditionally newborns are named after their charts, I know, I am Indian.
To be honest I did not expect this level of resistance to this information, and find it disturbing that people on this forum are so closed minded and biased about AYP that they shut down other systems without even any experience or proper investigation on the subject. |
Edited by - Gnosis on May 04 2008 04:48:26 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 04:50:41 AM
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Hi Gnosis,
Have you seen this topic?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3774
I also use the cards sometimes and always find it truly fascinating how correct they are! I astonish my friends with the accuracy and the "touch of spirit" that follows when they reach an insight with help from the cards. They often leave a tear or two in my sofa! |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 08:34:05 AM
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Hi Gnosis,
I am a big fan of Elisabeth Haich and she wrote a series of books about Yoga and spiritual evolution. One of them is Wisdom of the
Tarot and it comes with a pack of tarot cards.
She teaches that each card represents a particular stage of spiritual growth and that simple concentration on a card can help bring that growth about because the cards contain many symbols that stimulate us from the unconscious. According to her, they are archetypal in nature and this factor can be leveraged.
She didn't teach them as a method of divinization but as an aid to spiritual growth.
Personally, I am not inclined to use tarot cards, in any way, and never practiced this and was suprised to even see that she had written a book of this nature. But her origins are Egyptian so I guess it makes sense.
The reason I don't use the tarot deck is that if I ask a question of the cards on one day I get one card as an answer. If I ask it on a second day I get a different card. On a third I get yet another card. So what is the use?
Now, if I got the same card on all three occasions, that would get my attention. 
That is my simple logic. But there must be some usefulness. What do I know?
Of course, meditation brings you into closer contact with the origin or core of your being or higher self and therefore your wisdom and intuition. If you look at the last three AYP samyama sutras you will see that they have the effect of bringing out the particular abilities you are seeking. Wisdom, inner sensuality and inner space.
To me, wisdom is a manifestation of being able to turn within and be sensitive to the intuitive knowledge that flows from your higher self thru/from inner space. This is, in essence, your guru within.
Btw, from what I have read, and I think it was in his biography, J. Krishnamurti had siddhis but never let on about them.
I just read your last sentence and want you to know that I have no opposition to the use of tarot cards, etc. What ever works.
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on May 04 2008 09:00:35 AM |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 2:57:55 PM
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Okay yogibear, let me see if I can do some clarification for you.
For instance, I asked my inner oracle what my ideal career would be, I got the Hanged Man from the major arcana.
http://www.taroscopes.com/major/hangedman.html
Then later in another session, I asked what my ideal dharma was?
http://www.taroscopes.com/major/moon.html
If you cross reference both those cards you will see that they both deal with mysticism and yoga, what are the chances in 78 cards that that would happen, also consider the fact that upside down cards also have different meanings so it's really like 156 possibilities, and even though I pulled two different cards, the answer was congruent, and gave the similar advice. So pulling different cards can still give you the same responses, similar to how all religions lead to God, no matter how different they may appear. The answers will all be unique, show me one thing in nature that is identical to the thing next to it? Every tree, rock, blade of grass, everything is unique and different, why would you expect anything different from the tarot deck, if the tarot deck gave the exact same answers, then it would not be consistent with the way of God, remember nature is about change, nothing remains static, everything is in a constant state of flux.
As a side note, if you read the bio-energetic of both cards, they both spoke about my lymphatic system, beyond coincidence, I actually have had problems with lymphatic drainage in the past.
If you do not understand the meaning of the reading, you can ask the cards again and get another sign. But if you already understood the meaning of the 1st sign, do not consult the cards anymore. For example, if you are very sure about what is going to happen because the 1st sign was very clear and understandable to you, you cannot get another spread just for the fun of it. You can not say, "Well, I know what is going to happen already, but I just want to see if the result will come out exactly the same." If you do that, the result of the spread will be totally inaccurate, because your question is unfocused. Once you are sure about what the spread is telling you, you can no longer get an accurate sign. Why? Because if you just want to cast spreads again to see if the result will come out exactly the same as the first sign, you are not focusing on the original question anymore. Now you are thinking, "I wonder if the result will come out exactly the same as the first sign?" Your thinking is not pure anymore, and the result won't be accurate either. But if you really don't understand the 1st sign, you can cast another spread until you understand the meaning of the sign. You can do 10 or 20 spreads until you understand what the sign is saying to you. All of them will be accurate as long as you really didn't understand the meaning of the previous sign.
The deck is a psychological tool used to perceive information from the Atman in archetypcal symbolic form, it's not some external source, the answers come from your own higher self. The deck is designed to facilitate this contact with the inner self, and reveal very direct and pertinent information. I have Yogani's book on samyama, so I know that there are sutras dealing with this subject, the tarot deck is and can be an aid in this.
If there is one limitation to the deck it is this one. You can only ask questions to the deck that are personally significant, you cannot ask something mundane like, who is gonna win the Jets game tonight, something like remote viewing or predictive astrology is best suited for that. Remember, you are consulting with God when you get readings from the deck, so it should be approached with a certain level of respect. The more important and significant the answer is to you, the clearer and less ambiguous the answer will be, because you are more focused, and there is more energy.
Yogibear if you like, I can do a reading for you, I am not trying to convince you that the tarot works because I have already proved it to myself, and that's all that matters, but if you genuinely have a question that you need to know, a deep burning question, then I can help. Just like prana, you believe in prana, because you can feel it, nobody can make you feel different, you just know it, through and through, there is no scientific information to support prana, how does your logic deal with that? It doesn't your intuition and feelings override your logic. I have personally tested the tarot deck throughly and it has not rendered inaccurate information to me yet. But you have to follow the rules of the deck.
Most of the people out there who claim to teach tarot, do not know what they are doing, they don't understand how to use the cards correctly, they are charlatans, and because of people like them, tarot scholarship gets little to no respect, even in the spiritual community, except to those that have personally experienced the deck, and had it reveal deep insights to them, Michael Tsarion is trying to fix this. You don't need the tarot deck to communicate with the inner guru, it's just a really great and simple tool that can quickly and easily be used to render pertinent and accurate information when performed in the correct way.
EMC, I am glad that you are enjoying the technology of the tarot deck. I try to tell people, it's not in replacement of yoga, just a very very powerful tool. The deck provides a deep level of sovereignty, ideal for ronin yogis. If you were a neophyte with a guru, you would be asking questions to him, but if there is no guru, you have to be self sufficient, and the tarot deck helps to facilitate that in a dramatic way. In no way shape or form does anyone have to use the tarot deck, just like we don't have to use cars, computers, and cellphones, but no body in here will attest to not using them as powerful tools to aid their life, and make it more comfortable.
We should try to learn to view the tarot deck as a tool, not a replacement for spiritual attainment, similar to meditation, it's a tool, it's not the goal of yoga. All of you attest to this inner guru, but still this forum exists to speak to consult with Yogani, the tarot deck in essence is similar to this forum, except the answers come from God.
"It is like a finger pointing to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory."
Bruce Lee |
Edited by - Gnosis on May 04 2008 3:24:50 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 3:21:08 PM
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Yogibear: "Now, if I got the same card on all three occasions, that would get my attention."
 I have now for a year or so only gotten one card on the question "what is needed for the solution?"... The card: Consciousness! Over and over and over again...
A neighbour made a tarot laying on me, and I only got the highest cards, like The Ace of Swords, The Queen of Water, The Princess of Water, and when asked about the future, the Universe card came. When the Universe card was drawn, my right hand took it and the arm went straight up (as usual when strong energies are moving) and I held the card high, head went backwards and tears streamed. A very strong energy reaction.
I got the same reaction when an astrologist told me about my numerology. I don't know any of that, but she started by pointing out my life number was 5 - communication, teaching. But the rest, she said... was all nines! Straight through, just nines. Very unusual. I asked what nine meant. She said "well, it's the last number, nines have seen it all, done it all, there are no more lessons to learn... the only thing to do... is to let go", and *shwop* my right arm goes up - I almost felt I would levitate, it was a very strong pull upwards - head bent backwards, and there was this beam of bright light coming from the sky down into my mouth and it went down my body... Very, very intense experience.
I must agree with Gnosis that cards layings, numerology, astrology readings etc can give you great gifts of insights and hints to what's needed for further progress on the journey if performed accurately.
I don't believe, though, that it is to be taken too seriously since it can easily become an obsession, and if the mind is too involved... well, then we have the law of attraction that will only show what you expect! (That was of course not the case in the above situations!!! ) |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 3:46:58 PM
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I agree with all of you on this forum, you don't NEED a tarot deck. Just like we don't need computers, pda's, cellphones, gps navigation, electricity etc..., but once you encountered the technology, and integrate it into your life, you don't know how you would live without it, that is how I feel about the tarot deck. If you have not experienced the power of the deck, you think it's inessential, just like in the 80's people thought computers were inessential.
None of you in here would decide to abandon cell phones or computers just because it's not 100 percent essential. The tarot deck to me is more powerful than any computer, because the information comes from the source of life, All That Is. You can't put a price on that. Computers cost more than 555, and they can break, need repairing, require electricity, upgrading, maintenance etc..., then eventually they will need to be replaced when better technology comes about. This will never happen to the tarot deck, it's been around since the times of the great Hermes Trismegistus himself, the great grandfather of mysticism.
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 4:51:35 PM
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If anyone in here would like a taste of tarot and use it without spending 555, Lon Mil Duquette has a great dvd on tarot, it's only 25 bucks.
http://www.lonmiloduquette.com/_dvd.html
This is a great video. If you would like to master tarot, then signing up to the mystery school or joining a magickal order is going to be the next logical step. But be warned, mystery schools turn away people all the time. I personally referred a few friends to mystery schools, and they did not get in, selection is based on aptitude and moral character, because these technologies can be so easily abused. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 6:38:21 PM
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Don't get me wrong, I have no resistance to you using the tarot or astrology, however I did have some resistance to the large amount of money involved, so 25 bucks is much better.
What a coincidence, Lon Milo duquette was a personal friend of mine for many years before i moved here, and I was initiated into his order. We had many long discussions, but his way seemed too complicated for me.
Which is to say there is nothing wrong with it, or ANY other path as long as no harm or disrespect is done to others. |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2008 : 2:14:36 PM
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Yeah the price of the mystery school is not just a book or dvd or something like that. It is a school in which you have a tutor that guides you throughout the whole thing, one on one tutoring is not cheap. I spent like 1200 a semester (which did not include books) to go to community college, this is a steal if you compare it to regular school.
It's an entire program of: tarot, numerology, kabbalah, and astrology. So it's not just one subject but 4.
There are tons of books out there on tarot, but I think that you cannot truly learn the western esoteric sciences from a book, hence I joined a school. I am a one on one kind of person, so even though it may seem steep, you have to remember, it's a school tuition fee, not just a book or a video that you are left to figure out on your own with no help.
Even with yoga, there are tons of weekend seminars that cost 300+, just for a weekend seminar, this is a one time fee to learn all 4 esoteric sciences, so think of it as 138 a piece for each science.
I think that's great you are a friend of Lon's, I never met him, but he is one of the legends in the western occult circle. I plan on going to some of his free lectures. Even though western esoterics is not always easy to learn, the benefits are worth it, anything worth while is not easy. God is very very intelligent so the science that uncovers the hidden mechanics of the universe will not be all fun and games.
I enjoy yoga very very much, but it's only part of what I do. Yoga is for my spiritual evolution, magick is for my material life, I don't work a job, so I use the tarot and remote viewing for my monetary support, I have all the free time in the world to study and practice, which is great. Yoga could not do that for me, I used magick to create more time for my yoga, I don't want to become a monk for a acetic, and I don't like working for people, so magick was a way for me to integrate spirituality with my material life, hope that makes sense.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2008 : 08:13:05 AM
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Hi Gnosis,
quote:
Gnosis wrote:
I enjoy yoga very very much, but it's only part of what I do. Yoga is for my spiritual evolution, magick is for my material life, I don't work a job, so I use the tarot and remote viewing for my monetary support, I have all the free time in the world to study and practice, which is great. Yoga could not do that for me, I used magick to create more time for my yoga, I don't want to become a monk for a acetic, and I don't like working for people, so magick was a way for me to integrate spirituality with my material life, hope that makes sense.
Makes sense. Sounds idyllic. How do you do this? Stock market, lottery?
quote:
emc wrote:
I have now for a year or so only gotten one card on the question "what is needed for the solution?"... The card: Consciousness! Over and over and over again...
You got my attention. This never happened for me.
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emc wrote:
I must agree with Gnosis that cards layings, numerology, astrology readings etc can give you great gifts of insights and hints to what's needed for further progress on the journey if performed accurately.
No argument. I can be kind of stodgy sometimes.
quote:
Gnosis wrote:
Yogibear if you like, I can do a reading for you, I am not trying to convince you that the tarot works because I have already proved it to myself, and that's all that matters, but if you genuinely have a question that you need to know, a deep burning question, then I can help.
Thank you, Gnosis, that is very generous of you. I would like to take a rain check, as at the moment, I have no burning question. If I get one, I will email you, OK?
Elisabeth Haich taught astrology, geometry and was versed in numerology as well.
I like her numerological explanation of personal influence. Every person has a number which represents their vibration. The number one is the number of God or the Godman as it can be divided by all numbers without a remainder.
If your number is 100, you will have personal influence over all people with numbers that can be divided into 100 without a remainder. So people with numbers 50, 25, 20 10, 5, 4, 2 will be in harmony with you and tend to be easily influenced by you.
One could say that Yogani has a very high number that is divisible by all the numbers of people who like this website and participate in it, for example.
The higher the number, the bigger the being you are. However, if you have a very high prime number, say, 13,457, you can be very evolved and yet have no influence as there are no other numbers that can be divided into your number without a remainder.
It is one way of conceptualizing the phenomena which I think is pretty slick.
But I was never impressed by people I have met in the past, and it has been a long time, who were into this kind of endeavor. And their predictions and observations never came true and never rang true, so I have been skeptical of it since. I guess you could say our numbers were unrelated.
Yogi Ramacharaka has a book on things of this nature as well. So I am sure there are genuine practitioners with different levels of skill.
One time, my teacher, his wife and I were sitting in the yoga school and a guy walked in. He looked like he was some where between being homeless and an unskilled worker, kind of scruffy, disheveled. He asked my yoga teacher and I a bunch of questions, birth dates and the like. Then he went to the bar next door.
A half an hour later he came back in with two sheets of paper, one for my teacher and one for me. Then he left, never to be seen again. Each one was covered with some type of computation. The bottom line was that even tho the numbers my teacher and I gave the man were completely different, the numbers or number that came out at the end of his computation were/was exactly the same.
I think it had the same kind of significance as your number 5, emc, but I don't know for sure.
My teacher told me that I should find someone who knew about numerology and have them explain what this was. But it is 25 years now and it got lost along the way.
Even tho he took notice of this, that was the end of it for him.
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Gnosis wrote:
.....if you truly wish to study yoga, you too should study prognostication so you can learn to handle your karma, before it handles you.
Very catchy. I like it.
I guess you could look at tarot and the like as training wheels until you can ask your higher self the question and get the answer directly. Is that correct?
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on May 13 2008 08:18:53 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2008 : 09:36:18 AM
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| I ask my higher self directly also and can get very clear answers... the cards fill their place anyway sometimes. There's no particular stairway here where some methods are for beginners... |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2008 : 12:05:40 PM
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Hi emc,
I don't know if I can agree.
To me, someone who can see the future or prognosticate or divine the right course for themself directly from within themself without the aid of some type of 'via', i.e., via tarot cards, via numerology, via crystal ball, etc. is beyond some one who does need a via.
I am not criticizing or putting down these methods at all. I think they are aids in helping to develop and focus an ability that is inherent in and can be developed by each of us to a point where we no longer require these aids to achieve the same result.
Heck, I can't even do it with the aids. Shows you where I am on the ability scale.
Best, yb.
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2008 : 9:48:41 PM
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I concur with you yogi, someone who has great clairvoyance does not need a tarot deck, and is very powerful, but that does not make them more accurate or better than someone who uses a tarot deck or astrology, proof is proof, use what ever works for you. And if you are very bent on the idea of not using a device for some reason, even though you use a computer and many devices to help you in your regular life, without tools, we would be like the animals, you can study remote viewing as this uses the mind only, or use astrology as this relies on your knowledge of calculating charts rather than a device.
Here is a great short youtube video on horary astrology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU8EAXwoFa8
Here is a great clip on technical remote viewing:
http://www.psitech.net/MovieViewer....vieSel=Intro
Here is a series of clips on tarot:
http://www.taroscopes.com/webstream...rvideos.html
I think you are stuck on the idea of not using a device, would you be mad at a doctor that puts a thermometer in your mouth, to check your temperature? Of course not, a thermometer is a device that checks your temperature, and he uses is skill to judge whether the reading of the thermometer is good or not. A tarot deck works the same way, rather it takes the reading of the inner psyche, nothing more. Any good doctor uses drugs, x-rays, mri's, etc... as tools in his practice, he has his and I have mine, I think of myself as a doctor of the spirit like a shaman.
Remote viewing is a great tool developed by Stanford Research Institute. It has more of a scientific rather than mystic feel as does the tarot deck and astrology, but I use both old school and new school it gives a great dichotomy. Remote viewing is very methodical and rigorous, and it works, but takes LOTS of practice. When done correctly you can be very very accurate. I also a student of RV at the technical remote viewing university. I am on the verge of becoming certified by them as a technical remote viewer, which I am stoked about, I plan on joining their forex trading club, and making some big money.
I was not even going to study remote viewing at all, I tried it before, and found it very frustrating, but still very interesting. I asked the tarot deck if I should study remote viewing, and this was the answer card I got:
EIGHT OF DISKS (upright)
http://www.taroscopes.com/minor/minor-disks.html#8
The answer seemed very clear to me, and the card gave me more of an answer than I bargained for, so I immediately began saving money to become a student at TRV university. I know that it's possible to get the basics of rv from the numerous dvd courses and weekend seminars, but if I really want to master the skill, it takes a more hands on approach IMO, so I signed up to their university, it's not cheap at all, but very worth it. I don't worry about money very much, most spiritualist are broke, not me, because of these tools cost does not drive me away from higher knowledge.
As far as money emc I do stock market and sports betting, as well as performing tarot reading, and optimum trajectories using remote viewing for people. People come in for all kinds of questions like marriage, business consultation etc..., people recommend me, because the advice I have given them has benefited them greatly. I am not a fortune teller, so I don't do fortune telling for people, rather I just give insight and shed light where this is none. I have made most of my money word of mouth, and it has done quite well for me thus far, so much that within 9 months I quit my job as an insurance agent, and perform services full time, and I am very glad to be able to use my spirituality to help people, and help myself.
"Let the beauty of what you love, be what you do."
Rumi
That is my motto, I love mysticism. Yoga, magick, divination I have loved these topics since child hood, and feel so great that I have been able to integrate them into my life and professional career, what a blessing.
It's hard work doing these kinds of services, sometimes I find it difficult to get the right answer with one tool, so I must rely on my rv, tarot, and astrology skills sometimes, which can be very very time consuming to me, but it's all in a days work. I get the most amazing responses after the person has utilized the information from my readings, and they keep coming back, and keep sending more people. Once people figure out, hey this works, they get all excited, it's so funny.
I plan on adding astrological services right after I am done with my course on astrology from Robert Zoller, I'm not gonna start giving readings with predictive astrology, until I get the okay for him I am ready, I do use certain portions of astrology sometimes in my readings, but for now, I rely mainly on tarot and rv. I take my education into these things as serious as any doctor or lawyer. As you can see, I am a very very busy student, but not a starving student. I don't advertise, but people come to me all the time, from all walks of life, even Christians, who don't believe in divination have come for consultations from me, and have found the information very valid and applicable. I know it works, and so do my clients, I am very pragmatic, and am very quick to drop things that have little use to me. The superstition surrounding this sort of thing is beginning to melt away, I think it's because the age of kali yuga is coming to an end, praise Brahman.
I even do one out of every 10 readings on the house, as a tithe to the Atman for bestowing this wonderful gift upon me, it has truly been a blessing. I believe that it is my dharma to be a powerful Magi and yogi, yoga is for my persona life and transformation, my own benefit. I use my skills in divination to help others navigate along the path that karmas throws their way. I not only provide information I also provide solutions as well, but that's another story.
I think when science stops being so closed minded, we will begin a new chapter in science into to our multidimensional reality that we live in, that will be a great day, the merging of science and spirit, a great triumph that day will be, when religion becomes obsolete, and truth becomes the way. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 01:11:12 AM
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Gnosis: "As far as money emc..."
You must mean Yogibear again... |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 12:50:00 PM
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Please note, this is not intended to criticize these practices, which can be useful in various ways and/or at various times - it is only our own inner guru that it the ultimate authority.
Astrology, tarot card, gemology, palmistry, dousing, rituals, drugs, karma theory etc. are all great tools in the beginning. People need something to believe in, something physical that the mind can grasp and be amazed at to start off on the spiritual path. The mind needs to be constantly amazed if it has to stay on the path. However, like siddhis, these methods can be distracting. The point is not to get caught up, not to put all your energy into these external means. These are tools to get you started.. but you do need to start putting your attention within, use internal means (like meditation) along with the external means (if so desired). The wonders that will be revealed to you if you remain open and ready to change and ready to drop your attachment to any of the means are beyond words and beyond the mind (literally beyond the mind).
External techniques can be limiting because they are like substance addictions.. when the time comes to go beyond them, it gets very difficult to let go the amazement and sense of security the mind has attached to it. Also, the mind loves being involved and busy. The mind needs something concrete to admire, and the beauty and mystical powers of the external means can be very pleasing to the mind.. because in most cases it is instant gratification. But then the mind needs more and more to be satisfied, and starts seeking for more and more of these external means, taking you further and further into your mind.
You can never satisfy your mind, you can never reproduce results your mind thinks there should be. The most challenging part of this path has been letting go the images the mind created and the sense of advancing and achieving that the mind needs to grasp at. If any experience is exactly like what you had imagined it to be.. chances are high that you are still imagining it. You need to go beyond the mind, and most of the above techniques will, in the long run, slow you down. It is OK to indulge your mind, but just stay open, and you will know when you need to stop taking help of these external crutches. Be open and ready to drop the crutches when your inner guru tells you, "you can walk on your own now". |
Edited by - Shanti on May 08 2008 12:53:54 PM |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 2:58:39 PM
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Okay, I understand what you are saying Shanti, and it makes perfect sense, but even meditation is just a tool that must be disregarded as well. Meditation is a technique that you learned, which came from an external source. Meditation can even be an attachment, and a barrier to enlightenment, it does serve it's purpose, just like these tools do. We must learn to even let go of the techniques we learn from yoga, the ultimate technique is to have no technique. Meditation does not lead to enlightenment. Enlightenment leads to enlightenment. You either are, or you aren't. It happens in an instant, there is no in between. When we accept this truth, we will become the Buddha. This is the essence of one of the greatest Zen Patriarchs, Huang Po.
The reason prognostication exists, is to allow one to move through life quickly, safely and efficiently. Karma is something we all have to deal with, we have committed atrocities in previous lives that we have no knowledge of when they will come back, we never know when our karma will come to fruition and cause suffering, you cannot practice yoga if your karma kills you, how many dead people practice yoga, would you not agree that being alive is essential to practicing yoga? That was the reason why the ancient vedic masters came up with astrology, to let you understand your karma and how to transform it. It also was used to identify your dharma or life purpose, many yogis were identified in this fashion.
Anybody can become infatuated with anything to the point where it harms them. Food and sex can be EASILY misused resulting in food and sexual addictions, that does not mean one should renounce eating or sex, rather learning to control it, and learning how to use them to your advantage like vegetarianism and tantra, both of which I practice. Anything used disproportionately can be quite harmful, even water. Moderation is the key.
I agree with you though, these tools can be easily misused and abused, like anything can be misused or abused, I know people who have addictions to exercise, it doesn't mean exercise is bad, or should be disregarded, it must just be controlled, nothing more, nothing less. For people that have propensity for addictions or obsessions, the path of western esotericism can easily be a very dangerous path, it is easy to get caught up in magick and astrology, but if the student uses them correctly they serve as a spring board to delve into higher consciousness, this was the intent for their usage, similar to meditation. Astrology leads to self mastery.
Astrology is a powerful tool you can use to predict when you will become sick, get into a car accident, how long you will live, what is your ideal spiritual path, if you will have kids etc..., but these are not set in stone, with free will we can alter our fate for the better, or worse, the choice has been and always will be ours, whether we decided to do what is right or what is easy.
Astrology like meditation is a tool that we all must toss to the wind, but you cannot do such things until after your usage of them is done, premature abandonment of these technologies can lead to extreme hardships. Karma can be a very cruel teacher, if we use astrology and tarot for tools to manage karma, then astrology becomes yet another tool along the path of our dharma. It is only here in the west where astrology is not in common usage, in the east, the jyotisha is a very common person you go see like a doctor, and like a doctor he helps prescribe certain actions like mantras to correct certain karmic maladies, as all is a manifestation of karma. We live in the world of cause and effect, and astrology is a powerful tool to see these things and learn to transform and transcend them. You don't have to use astrology, but if you don't, karma can come without warning, and harm you or your loved ones, practicing yoga does not make a special deal with God for bad things not to happen to you, bad things have happened to many monks and sages through out time, if they had only had divination, they could have foreseen this, avoided it, and could have continued their practices to reach enlightenment.
You obviously believe in efficiency, or else you would not be evolving yourself with yoga. Evolution is a very painful and slow process by which we will all reach enlightenment, yoga was created to skillfully move this process along at an extremely fast rate. Astrology is used to remove karmic blocks to your dharma, to make your journey smoother, we must use every advantage to reach moksha, and astrology is a very very powerful advantage, but you don't have to use it, you could just try to guess what will happen, you might get lucky.
I choose to see my karma, and what I should do about it, and use it as a tool to reach higher consciousness. With tools like astrology and tarot, it has put me in touch with my Atman, the tarot deck cannot be abused for gambling, it cannot work for something like that, so the tarot deck is extremely hard to abuse. The tarot deck is an interface device used to facilitate communication with the Atman, until you become the Atman, then it's no longer needed. Meditation is used to merge you with the Atman, until you are one, then you no longer need it.
I only wish that you could experience the power of prognostication, to see that the information comes directly from the Atman, not from some external source, the deck is simply a device to communicate symbolically.
"Signs and symbols rule the world, not phrases and laws." Confucius
When you experience it, you will be changed forever, like samadhi. I go through life, unafraid. I am able to radiate love all the time, because astrology has allowed me to no longer live in fear of my karma, and fear is a major block to enlightenment, love is the way. I am able to interact with people in such a different fashion, because I am not scared. I no longer fear car accidents, accidental death, sickness, I can see it, and prepare for it, or neutralize it through astrological magick like yagyas or talismans.
There are many Christians that view meditation as unnecessary, they say all you need is Jesus, and then you look at them, and you say, boy they don't know what they are missing, that is the way I feel when I see seekers not using astrology, they don't know what they are missing. Astrology and meditation go hand in hand. With meditation you listen to the Atman, with divination you communicate with the Atman.
But I never forget:
"It is like a finger pointing to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Zen Maxim
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 6:29:56 PM
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Gnosis, I see your point, this stuff has been a great tool for you, that's awesome.
Just one thing: "There are many Christians that view meditation as unnecessary, they say all you need is Jesus, and then you look at them, and you say, boy they don't know what they are missing, that is the way I feel when I see seekers not using astrology, they don't know what they are missing."
I look at Christians the same way I look at you. If tarot decks help you better know yourself, great! Same with Jesus... or Krishna or Buddha or whoever. No one's missing out. It took me a while to even start learning that one. Though I do tend to be a bit more "blunt" with anyone after "enlightenment". I have certain standards before I'll take any "seekers" seriously. Not being too serious is one of them :). |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 7:13:10 PM
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| Everyone has a different path. What is good for one may be even bad for another. That's where your inner guru helps. you can sometimes even learn from things that might be considered evil or fraudulent by others. That's why I don't like organized religions too much. They think the same formula is for everyone. Of course it is possible that a group of people get together who all need the same thing, but evangelism is what deviates from that possibility. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 7:38:46 PM
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I have to disagree with you gnosis on two points. First, meditation is not the same kind of tool as the other things you mentioned, and there isn't necessarily a point where it has to be disregarded. That is true of tools that operate in the real worlds.
But Meditation is a means to disconnect your ego and your mind and learn to just be your true self instead of all the worldly baggage you normally call yourself. So it is not a tool that is used to "do things" with. When used properly it does something like disconnecting you from all the noise and busy-ness that we experience every day, which includes all the using of tools. Yes, you could say it is a "tool" for disconnecting, but what is being disconnected is ultimately EVERYTHING, giving one the feeling of being free and not having any tools at all.
Also I disagree with the notion that enlightenment is sudden and everlasting. I won't argue that this may have happened occasionally, but in most cases it is an ongoing process, making one better and better as time goes on. I think you will find that gurus who claim to be "enlightened" as a static state, still will show signs of being fallible and not perfect. a friend of mine left a monastic order when she saw the self proclaimed enlightened monk treating people in a way that was definitely not enlightened. There are many stories like this.
But people on this forum who follow the twice daily practices of easy meditation (in the "main lessons" link above) consistently report very gratifying results in their ongoing process of enlightenment. So much so that they aren't concerned with waiting for any sudden miracles because what is happening today is plenty.
There are times when we experience a sudden acceleration that could be mistaken for "the big enlightenment", but later we learn that there is even more. it's better that way so we won't get bored, like "so I'm enlightened; what's next?" |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 7:44:38 PM
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To be honest, I would like to get Yogani's take on this. I have never heard of meditation being used to predict the future with any precision or accuracy. I don't even think you can compare meditation and divination it's like comparing an apple to a screw driver, two completely different things.
And no, you don't have to predict your karma, but it's dangerous not to. No one would ever drive blind folded, that's what you do when you don't use any sort of system of divination, you are driving through life completely unaware of what is coming around the corner, I do not believe this is wise, but to each his own.
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Edited by - Gnosis on May 08 2008 8:28:28 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 10:39:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gnosis
but even meditation is just a tool that must be disregarded as well.
Yes meditation is a tool too.. a tool that will change along your path.. take on different flavors along the way. However, meditation and other similar techniques like samyama, self inquiry. living in the Now, take you inwards.. help you transcend the mind. At first these techniques too will be very surface, very external.. however in time it will help you see how this entire world exists in your mind. You see how you are bound by the expectations of your mind. With the external techniques, many people create more expectation, and/or reinforce the mind-based sense of self - the limited ego-mind "self".. These external techniques can bind you.. I know people who are stuck in their path because they have tried so many of the external techniques that it is almost impossible for them to let go of the mind. The mind is always looking for a shortcut.. That is what the ego mind wants. It needs to know. It needs to feel the security of knowing the future. Know what is coming. The security of "knowing" makes the ego mind very happy. However, the more you please your ego mind, the stronger it will get. You can never transcend the mind if you give it security. The mind will never be transcended as long you are attached/identified with it. The idea is to go beyond the mind so you can transcending the mind, and realize your true nature.
quote:
Originally posted by Gnosis
You either are, or you aren't. It happens in an instant, there is no in between. When we accept this truth, we will become the Buddha.
Even the Buddha meditated.. others who wake up enlightened, like Tolle and Byron Katie were completely tired of their minds and had to exhaust their minds before they were enlightened. You cannot think your way to enlightenment.. you have to drop the mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Gnosis
Astrology is a powerful tool you can use to predict when you will become sick, get into a car accident, how long you will live,
Tell me, for most people, knowing they will be in an accident or that they will die in a few months.. how does that help them spiritually? Their mind will make them suffer all the way to their accident or death. Till you transcend your mind and the concept of the "me" no longer persists, then you will not suffer during the time in between.. and the beauty is.. when you do transcend the mind.. you will not even care about the future.. because there only is the "NOW" to be in.
quote:
Originally posted by Gnosis
Astrology and meditation go hand in hand. With meditation you listen to the Atman, with divination you communicate with the Atman.
Dunno about that... with meditation, your inner guru communicates with you.. the whole world communicates with you.. you know exactly what you need to know, when you need to know it. Without having to depend on any apparent external source to give you the answers.
quote:
Originally posted by Gnosis
But I never forget:
"It is like a finger pointing to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Zen Maxim
All tools are the fingers that are pointing to the moon.. when we do see the moon, and not what the mind thinks the moon is.. should be.. the history of the moon, the stories associated with the moon, the feelings associated with the moon... the past and future associated with the moon.. but just the "Moon".. we are enlightened... we are the moon.
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Edited by - Shanti on May 08 2008 10:41:10 PM |
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Psychicisation
