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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 24 2008 : 4:26:00 PM
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something I have wondered about for a long time. one of the observances is non violence and that includes animals and plants as well. But there are a lot of people that build big ashrams, use plastics, etc..... In my mind this would be violence cause you have to kill plants to build, you will run the animals out of their homes from the land that is built on, plastics are not good for the enviorment, etc... Many of these "masters" may fly around the world, ride in cars, go on television, etc.... In my mind this would be indirect nonviolence.
just thoughts
Me
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emc
2072 Posts |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2008 : 5:18:50 PM
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I have a story to tell, I'm sure many of you have heard it. There were two monks in a monastery fighting over a cat. It became this big thing between all the monks and created a lot of drama. They just couldn't properly share ownership of this kitty.
So one day, their Zen master, watching the whole ordeal, comes in and decides to fix the problem. He gathers all his disciples, takes the cat, pulls out his sword, and cuts it in half. He gives one part to each of the monks. Problem solved.
When asked later about it, he says the cat had lived its life... what more was it to do. The monks on the other hand, were stopping their lives, getting caught up in the drama of who would own this cat. He cut the cat in half knowing that he could never truly kill the cat. Nothing ever really dies. The act may of seemed violent, though the consciousness behind it was nothing but stillness, inner silence, peace.
One should not judge acts, the only thing that matters is the consciousness behind them. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2008 : 6:19:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Divineis
I have a story to tell, I'm sure many of you have heard it. There were two monks in a monastery fighting over a cat. It became this big thing between all the monks and created a lot of drama. They just couldn't properly share ownership of this kitty.
So one day, their Zen master, watching the whole ordeal, comes in and decides to fix the problem. He gathers all his disciples, takes the cat, pulls out his sword, and cuts it in half. He gives one part to each of the monks. Problem solved.
When asked later about it, he says the cat had lived its life... what more was it to do. The monks on the other hand, were stopping their lives, getting caught up in the drama of who would own this cat. He cut the cat in half knowing that he could never truly kill the cat. Nothing ever really dies. The act may of seemed violent, though the consciousness behind it was nothing but stillness, inner silence, peace.
One should not judge acts, the only thing that matters is the consciousness behind them.
Besides, that darned cat was probably walking all over the grass!
Just kidding, I love kitties 
In that story one must also include the reaction of the master when he returned and was told of the fate of the beloved cat. His reaction was part of the story.
"Nanchuan saw the monks of the eastern and western halls fighting over a cat. He seized the cat and told the monks: 'If any of you can recite a word of zen, you can save the cat.' No one answered. So Nanchuan cut the cat in two pieces. That evening Zhaozho returned and Nanchuan told him about this. Zhaozho removed his sandals and, placing them on his head, walked out. Nanchuan said: 'If you had been there, you could have saved the cat.' "
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Edited by - Balance on Apr 24 2008 6:32:13 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2008 : 12:35:41 PM
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did the master make a judgement that his understanding of consciousness was greater then the cats understanding of consciousness? How can the master know whether or not the cat consciously wanted to live. maybe the enlightenment that man can find is not the highest enlightenment out there. If man thinks himself superiour maybe that is a holdback, so building unecessary buildings and saying, "it is ok, I am conscious" maybe that is not humble and the man may be reborn again? all these big fancy ashrams, churches, needless statues, etc..... we are just putting more strained on an already strained world. these statues are just feeding the people insecurities of needing something visual to see god as so maybe they are getting people farther away from God. Maybe the statues are pacifying them, where as if the people had not been pacified maybe they would be farther along the road to finding this "God" that they seek. If all we need is God to exist then all we should need is what has been put here.
as "yogis" we try to purify ourselves but yet we toxify the world? Who is to say that some people idea of enlightenment is not a trap? A guy meditates, has a dream, and everything seeems ok to him. So he goes and gets a bunch of follwers who falls at his feet, he feeds off of that energy and it builds him up in aonther realm, people start calling him master, etc..... and then he becomes just another false idle. I know what people say that you are worshiping the god energy that comes through the person, not the person, but in the baghvad gita krishna says that which you pray to is where you will go after this life and if you are praying to or through a master then you may go with that master after this life, only to be reborn again. In the baghvad it says something similar to "if you pray to the infinite then you will not be reborn" Maybe the truly enlightened one is the one who when they understand stays exactly where they are, does not seek followers, but helps out the people that she/he has always been around, tells othere that the "guru lies within" and lessons his/her impact on the earth, people, animals, etc...
These masters that come along and say "I have seen so the rules are different for me and you" and sit there and add to the poluttion of the world, I just cant buy it. but then again I am on my own path and I should not hold those things against anyone and maybe if I become enlightened one day my outlook would change. But untill then if I bow before one I bow before all, I ask that the animals, plants, world, etc... forgive me for my arrogance in thinking that my existence is more important then theirs.
just a bunch of thoughts to throw out there I understand there is a great balance to all this and that this world may not be the only existence that matter, but this world is what I know so I try not to downplay its significance.
Neil |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2008 : 12:57:11 PM
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| Yes, that's what happens when we have old stories from the ninth century or some other time in the past that were passed on, or invented, or imbellished upon and then finally written down. Who knows what really happened? The story became a zen koan. My current take on the story is something like "the way, oneness, zen, whatever the name, is beyond words, but the actions speak volumes." The monks had no answer when asked for a word on zen, but their actions conveyed a struggle with dualistic thought. The cat harshly symbolizes their struggle with each-other and within themselves under the veil of duality. The returning master answered the question I presume, but I haven't quite fathomed the shoes on the head. It is a favorite mental image of mine though, not the cat, but the master walking out with his shoes on his head. it is just a story. |
Edited by - Balance on Apr 25 2008 1:49:41 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2008 : 1:00:28 PM
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He cut the cat in half knowing that he could never truly kill the cat. Nothing ever really dies. The act may of seemed violent, though the consciousness behind it was nothing but stillness, inner silence, peace.
However much of that is true, it is irrelevant to the morality of killing the cat. Morally speaking, I agree with tubeseeker. We have here
1. An interesting Zen lesson.
2. If taken literally, a story about a Zen teacher who behaved immorally by our sensible modern standards and even those of his time.
3. A common tendancy to believe that if such teacher is enlightened, then 2. must not be true, while they can be present together.
4. If the story is literally true, a possible moral-philosophical mistake on the part of the Zen teacher in believing that he was exempt from the moral requirements because he believes himself operating from 'enlightenment'. I can't answer for him because I'm not inside his head. But it does happen and I can imagine that happening.
As far as I am concerned, if the story is literally true the master taught a good Zen lesson but gave poor moral example in the process.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 25 2008 1:04:07 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2008 : 1:55:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tubeseeker
something I have wondered about for a long time. one of the observances is non violence and that includes animals and plants as well. But there are a lot of people that build big ashrams, use plastics, etc..... In my mind this would be violence cause you have to kill plants to build, you will run the animals out of their homes from the land that is built on, plastics are not good for the enviorment, etc... Many of these "masters" may fly around the world, ride in cars, go on television, etc.... In my mind this would be indirect nonviolence.
just thoughts
Me
Hi tubeseeker.
Back to your original questions and observations. Living lightly and with reverence upon our Mother Earth is surely the wisest practice. But on the other hand, the depth of ahimsa shows us that all of life here incorporates violent acts. We cannot escape violence with each step and breath we take. It helps us realize humility, and creates a space for release.
My 2 cents |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2008 : 3:09:09 PM
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balnnce I understand where you are coming from. But in many ashrams they teach people to not be consumers of too much materialistic stuff yet there is materialism all over the ashrams. And taking pictures of the yogi "master" and having the disciple put it around their neck, etc......but maybe the person is truly enlightened and allows the followers to do these things because the "master" has compasion
just thoughts
seeker
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2008 : 5:40:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tubeseeker
balnnce I understand where you are coming from. But in many ashrams they teach people to not be consumers of too much materialistic stuff yet there is materialism all over the ashrams. And taking pictures of the yogi "master" and having the disciple put it around their neck, etc......but maybe the person is truly enlightened and allows the followers to do these things because the "master" has compasion
just thoughts
seeker
I agree, it's true, some of those organizations around gurus and holy people can get carried away and people tend to forget the world around them. A horde of bliss-bunnies trying to organize is an incredible thing to watch. And being a part of such a phenomenon is truly a remarkable experience. If the master is real I think a lot of things are forgivable. The amount of healing and transforming taking place can outweigh the negatives in some cases. It's good to be aware of such things though.
Alan |
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nonviolence
