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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 17 2008 : 9:40:31 PM
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I feel I am so close to kechari. It is right there. But I cannot quite get it. I know it more of a forward thrust, as per Yogani's advice, but still, its not working.
I have snipped on a couple of occassions, but i dont think that does anything to help. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2008 : 09:40:12 AM
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Hi Alwayson,
Welcome to the forum.
I know how frustrating it can be.. so close and yet so far..
You are using your fingers to push right? That will help.
Here is a post of Yogani's that helped many of us get into Kechari stage 2. http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....hpage=4#8056 (read a few posts after that one too.)
quote:
Yogani said "A hint that can be helpful: The journey from stage 1 to stage 2 kechari (going behind the soft palate) is actually a thrust forward with the tongue as soon as it clears the back edge. Not up, but forward. The easiest place to do that from (shortest distance to get behind) is on the left or right side of the edge of the soft palate. The tongue can roll right in from either side, while going up the middle takes more length.
Also, keep in mind that the soft palate is not a rigid boundary. As soon as we are behind it, it folds down and forward like a natural trap door. It returns to normal position just as naturally when the tongue is removed from the pharynx. So the idea of the entrance being an opening "way back there" is somewhat of an illusion. As soon as the pharynx is penetrated, the opening expands all the way forward to the edge of the hard palate. See cross-sectional images of kechari here: http://www.aypsite.org/kechari_image1.html"
[
Another good hint was: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....hpage=5#8060
quote:
Just to clarify: The tongue doesn't actually "roll" into stage 2 from the side. It goes in on the side and slides to the center behind the soft palate. A push forward can help once the tip of the tongue has made it behind the edge of the soft palate -- that opens the soft palate trap door (it is usually automatic, but pushing forward with the tongue helps it along). No unusual contortions involved beyond just getting there, which you almost have!
Don't forget, finger help is perfectly legal, especially in the beginning.
Just keep at it and suddenly your tongue will slip right into stage 2. The first time this happened it really took me by surprise.
You are close.. just keep trying and you will get there.
Wish you all the best. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2008 : 4:57:59 PM
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| I don't understand how fingers are supposed to help, I can get farther back without them. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2008 : 1:34:30 PM
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Well for one the finger helps in guiding the tongue.
And secondly in my case, my tongue is not strong enough to push its way into the nasopharynx, so I still need a bit of help from my fingers to push it in. My tongue is long enough to go into stage 3, however, its not strong enough to move into stage 2 on its own. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2008 : 9:37:47 PM
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If I use my finger, my mouth has to be open wider.
If my mouth is wider, the tongue has to stretch MORE, So I do not understand how the finger helps. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2008 : 08:56:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
If I use my finger, my mouth has to be open wider.
If my mouth is wider, the tongue has to stretch MORE, So I do not understand how the finger helps.
Well, you said you can move further back than the opening of the nasopharynx right? So you have enough length. Just try to guide the tongue with your index finger and see. If it does not help, well then you don't have to do it.
It is something that helped me, so I am sharing it with you.
Every person is different, what works for one, it may not work for another. Sorry if I did not help. But there is no harm in trying right?
This is the best I can do.
Maybe someone else will have a better idea. Although I think the links I have given above have almost all the helpful hints reported at this forum so far.
Wish you all the best. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 10:31:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
my tongue is not strong enough to push its way into the nasopharynx
I think I essentially have the same issue |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 11:49:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
my tongue is not strong enough to push its way into the nasopharynx
I think I essentially have the same issue
Hi alwayson. I have attributed much of my ease of achieiving kechari mudra with a life of tongue manipulations. Since I was a boy I was always exercising and stretching my tongue as a favorite pastime. There are countless tensings and stretchings one can do with the tongue. Perhaps getting creative with your tongue will help you perform kechari mudra in short time? Try tensing it to hardness and then stretching it out of the mouth and down as far as it will go. Do this again and again over a period of weeks and see if it helps. Can't hurt. Maybe it's worth a try? |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 3:09:27 PM
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| anything is worth a try to achieve kechari, the king of mudras |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 3:31:05 PM
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| Don't forget that kechari step 1 is also kechari! I suppose you are discussing kechari step 2 and further, but reaching step 1 makes a real difference as well! |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2008 : 4:43:35 PM
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| i need to do stage 2 and 3 to be satisfied |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 6:49:12 PM
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I have been snipping away at my frenum. Most of it is GONE.
The problem seems to be, that I do not have enough length, and I think I was not really close as I thought I was.
In summary, I seem to have a serious problem. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2008 : 12:12:23 PM
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alwayson,
I sense despair in your post, is that correct? It makes me want to emphsize that I haven't reached more than step 1 yet, and I know of more people who are at VERY advanced levels who haven't come any further, and I can assure you it's possible to get deeper without reaching kechari 2 or 3. Yogani writes that himself, that it's not a necessary step! In a lot of spiritual traditions, they have never heard of kechari and they get realized anyway... |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2008 : 2:30:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
i need to do stage 2 and 3 to be satisfied
I agree with emc on this. I too am stage 1 kechari, and I find this to be quite acceptable, because that is the situation, and there is no other choice but acceptance of that. I think it may be that because there is so much discussion on these forums about acheiving stage 2 or above, that this can make us stage one folks feel somehow inferior. But from what I read, it may take two years of snipping and tugging to get to stage 2. And I see a definite benefit psychospiritually with the stage 1 kechari practice.
So what's the rush? We'll just do our practices and all things will come to pass. |
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mitsiky
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 12:09:37 PM
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| Don't even ask me how I stumbled here, but this is really weird. I can very easily get my tongue into my pharynx and I have been able to do that as long as I can remember. I have never practiced yoga and before today I had no idea this was considered some sort of advanced practice. Weird! |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 2:06:18 PM
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Hi mitsiky and welcome to the forum!
What a wonderful stumbling into advanced yoga practices! It often feels very weird to find this forum! A bit like Alice in wonderland-feeling...
Can you tell more about your ability? Does it bring any special types of sensations in you or is it just plain neutral to put your tounge up there?
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mitsiky
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 3:16:32 PM
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Hi emc!
I recognize you from reuniting.info and that must be how I wound up here (oh web surfing...)
I'll be honest with you. The only thing I feel from putting my tongue there, aside from quite ordinary touch sensitivity, is a light burning probably caused by the stretching of my soft palate. This is why context probably matters. In a similar way you aren't normally going to feel anything sexual during a medical pelvic examination, in spite of the area being touched. For me it's always just been a weird thing I can do that most people would probably find disgusting, not much different from the fact that I can wiggle my ears. If you wanted to get anything out of it, you would have to have some idea that it's possible and some kind of meditation practice probably.
I can't imagine that it's worth snipping to get there though unless you're just horribly curious. In Zen we often say there are 1000 Dharma doors. You don't have to cut yourself to be enlightened if you don't want to :-) |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 4:02:29 PM
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That's really interesting, mitsiky! Thanks for sharing. You are into spiritual practices anyway - zen? For how long have you been into zen? Are you meditating regularly?
The crucial thing here is probably if you've gotten your kundalini going (don't know what that would equal in zen teachings). If you haven't got it running, I guess what you describe would be the result of doing kechari - a pure physical thing.
Do you know what I mean by "having your kundalini going"? Sparkling energy up your spine, causing tingelings, heat, cold, itching or any other spooky feeling somewhere along your spine, or any other energy sensations of any kind in your body?
I do agree with you, there are 1000 Dharma doors... Nicely put! |
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mitsiky
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 4:39:17 PM
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Hi again emc,
I have heard of the concept of kundalini, but it's not something I've really dabbled in. I don't think there is any equivalent in Zen practice.
I was raised Christian and started dabbling in Buddhism around three years ago. For the past year I have been doing meditation weekly with a group, as well as mindfulness practice in my daily life. It's not a lot, but I already have a lot of benefits from it.
The group I practice with is in the tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh, which is not exactly typical Zen. One thing I love about it is not making things more complicated or difficult than they have to be. So I think tantra is pretty interesting, but it boggles my mind when people use a lot of obscure terminology. If you think you have to learn all that, or practice for hours every day just to make progress, you can easily get discouraged and give up, when in fact "enlightenment" is right there for you every second in the present moment. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 02:46:49 AM
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Hello,
So, I do not seem to have much tongue length, regardless of frenum. Does anyone have any tips for stretching out the actual tongue? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2008 : 06:12:56 AM
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Hi mitsiky, sorry for not answering.
I don't want to move too far from the topic here, just wanted to say I basically agree with you on this:
quote:
If you think you have to learn all that, or practice for hours every day just to make progress, you can easily get discouraged and give up, when in fact "enlightenment" is right there for you every second in the present moment.
Mindfulness and Thich Nhat Hanh is very dear to me as well. Though, those practices are a bit slow in awakening the kundalini - which is not about adding terminology, it's an actual force that goes through our bodies and comes from 'below'. Kechari happens to be a practice that enhances perceiving that force. In mindfulness we mostly enhance the force from 'above' - consciousness. For me it seems very logical that with only those types of practices there would be little sensation from kechari to start with, but things may very well change along the road! As usual - it's up to our own direct experience. Don't be surprised if your tounge in the nose starts giving you tickles some day...
alwayson, doesn't the indian gurus "milk" their tounge to get it longer? I don't know if that would help and I don't know how it is done, but someone else might know? I wish you all the best on your path, with or without kechari step 2 and further!
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SO close to kechari, snipping does not help
