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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 04:03:55 AM
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Ok, folks! Help me out!
As many of you already know, I have now for a couple of months been overloaded with energies, suffered the consequences and luckily it now seems to stabilize slowly. This has brought fears of a kind I have never encountered - only due to my neurotic mind of course. So the questions are not to be answered from an advaita position, please (of the sort "oh, just trust the process, you're always IT anyway... jada jada"), but from a position where my neurotic mind can get some practical help.
1. What if the fear of overload creates the overload according to the law of attraction? I manifest things very quickly nowadays - why not overload symptoms as well as other things? If not totally, perhaps to a certain extent exaggerating the real underlying overload?
2. Grounding - selfpacing - is for me the opposite of spiritual activities. Have I gotten something completely wrong here? For example, being in witness mode or self-inquiry mode is NOT grounding for me - it speeds energies and increases symptoms. So when I selfpace I totally go off spiritual mode and only go into witness mode during meditation. But from reading other's posts here I get the impression I might have missed something here...: is it ever possible to stay in witness mode and still have efficient grounding going on? If so - what's the trick?
3. I often feel stuck in a Catch 22 when my inner guru or urge says "Go for it!" and my fearful mind says: oh, nonono... that's the energies sucking you in to another overload! Stay away! Self-pace! Can self-pacing become a mind activity that prevents further progress, that is, a simple ego trick? The last thing I want is to get another overload. In your experience (you who have had serious overloads) what was the point like when you felt "now it's ok to start again"? How did you know it was no risk to increase practices again? Trial and error (start - overload - back off) a few times before it went ok?
I have become very afraid and it's quite uncomfortable. To ease the fright I would have to go spiritual - when I do I get overload symptoms increasing my fear... As the other day: The Work popped up and inner voice gently asked after a negative thought "Is that really true?" and that's enough for me to go *KABLAM* and the world twists back to spiritual reality for a moment, and... I get headache, eczemas, bla bla... 
Does anyone recognize this situation? If not - how do you handle self-pacing without getting neurotic? Every tip is welcome. |
Edited by - emc on Apr 13 2008 04:10:03 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 05:10:50 AM
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Hi emc,
don't know if I can give any tips to you,
but I would like to ask you: is the idea
of self-pacing/grounding for you in any way
connected to the feeling/thinking that if
you self-pace you might miss something
or you might not be advancing on the spiritual path ?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 05:32:48 AM
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Not on an intellectual - aware level since Yogani's message on self-pacing is rather clear and comprehensible. I usually give tips myself to people on how to selfpace and the importance of it!  This is not a question about whether it's necessary or not to self-pace, rather - how to do it without getting neurotic about it. My fear is not to go too slow on the path... my fear is to go too quick and mess myself up with overload all the time... Since almost everything is automatic for me on this journey - I have to selfpace the automatics... It's easier perhaps to selfpace and cut down on intentional practices. I feel I have done a minimum of practices always, but even that has been too much! I haven't yet been able to, for example, follow a whole semester of qi gong (which is said to be very grounding - NOT my experience!). I don't know ANY technique properly - isn't schooled in any spiritual system at all... To be honest - I haven't even read all AYP lessons! So when I cut down - it means I by WILL and mind force have to stop automatic things from happening. It's a bit tricky.
I guess it's this sentence that made you ask:
"Can self-pacing become a mind activity that prevents further progress, that is, a simple ego trick?"
I wrote that because I see that my mind uses the fear of overload as a means to freak me up and increase the fear! I recognize my mind patterns... The angle is not the fear of not progressing, it's rather the fear that my mind has kidnapped the argument "self-pacing" to use as a tool to keep me in my mind prison. Difficult to explain... do you get the point? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 07:53:02 AM
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Hi emc
Yes.....this is indeed familiar territory. I have had all the overload symptoms these last years. I am always "probed" open....there is a constant process in the head and the chest.....I am a walking, buzzing power rod (I frankly don't understand how I can take it. But I obviously can, and it works.....the process itself is taking care of me)
Some of your questions provides for so called answers that will just feed your fear, so I am not going to let you indulge in those 
Grounding.....
Grounding is not the opposite of spiritual activities. Grounding is just another - equally important - practise, that draws you into the very material itself. The fact of life. Grounding is not to "stay as witness" or "self-inquire". On the contrary. Grounding is a befriending with the earth. It is communion with matter. Communion; not detachment. When walking, just walk. When talking, just talk. Go see a movie or a friend that makes you laugh. Move some rocks; arrange some flowers, get your hands dirty. Do many unimportant things. Play with some children. Go swimming. Give someone a call so you can laugh together. This is where life is.
quote:
So when I selfpace I totally go off spiritual mode and only go into witness mode during meditation
This is......I am not familiar with this kind of thinking. I never compartmentalize (might not be an English word....) awareness into "modes". I don't know the difference between a "spiritual mode" and a "witness mode". I never think about it. There are no such names......here. Do you mean that witness mode is called spiritual mode outside meditation? I never think about modes - not in daily life, and certainly not in meditation. Can you manage to stop this complication? Because this constant analyzing - also while self-pacing - is not self-pacing. You do not miss anything, emc. That's part of the struggle. Your skill is tremendous! But making a goal out of "staying in witness mode" will instantly meddle with the natural way of expansion. Can you accept that there is no trick? Can you accept that the trust in you will grow naturally?
quote:
I often feel stuck in a Catch 22 when my inner guru or urge says "Go for it!"
Be aware of the difference between "urge" and "inner guru". They are not the same. A "stir" or inner "tickle" is not an urge. An urge pulls you outwards. A "tickle" is an inner smile. You can't help turning towards it. The rest follows of itself.
quote:
In your experience (you who have had serious overloads) what was the point like when you felt "now it's ok to start again"? How did you know it was no risk to increase practices again? Trial and error (start - overload - back off) a few times before it went ok?
Yes. Just like that
And be gentle with yourself. Go slow.....no giant steps. But if too much......don't make another story of it....just back off a little, and a little later - try again. Less, this time.
Also - don't forget that even if you do not practise at all for some time - expansion is still taking place. Life will bring you situations and people that ensures further growth, emc. Always trust this.
quote:
To ease the fright I would have to go spiritual
Try going material for a change. Spirit is everywhere. Don't believe all your mind tells you. It is protecting you (itself) - out of love. Give it a chance to experience something completely ordinary.....take it for a holiday.....so that it can forget itself for a while. You will still be here, yes?
quote:
Does anyone recognize this situation? If not - how do you handle self-pacing without getting neurotic?
I don't handle it, emc.
I am just as neurotic as you.
I have just.....give up the fixing, that's all.
And in this acceptance, there is enough relaxation so that silence seeps through anyway.
Just remember - when self-pacing - you are still progressing; there is no such thing as being "off".
Much love to you |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 08:05:32 AM
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Hi emc
As you know I don't have your problems with that kind of overload.
I was pondering your words however and the sport of sailing came to mind.
I was thinking if emc was in a small racing dinghy, sailing fast with mind fully occupied, with salt laden air washing over her, cleaning her aura, and at the same time honing her muscles to become more fit and strong, that her mind would not have time to think about such things. Very enjoyable too
Then a sailing analogy came to mind: When a person is sailing on a bigger boat and may be prone to getting sea sick. By far the most effective way to not get sick is to have a job on the boat that requires full concentration.
I have seen it many many times where people who have nothing meaningful to do on a boat in rough weather get very sick almost to the point of wanting to die. If they are given a job from the outset it simply never happens.
Hope you can take something out of that
Louis
PS. Katrine, we posted at the same time. |
Edited by - Sparkle on Apr 13 2008 08:13:29 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 08:36:24 AM
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| awesome, sparkle. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 12:02:36 PM
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Katrine and Sparkle,
Thanks for very nice posts! I didn't know you had all those overload symptoms, Katrine! That was interesting. Thank you for telling.
quote:
I don't know the difference between a "spiritual mode" and a "witness mode".
Me neither! I know only two modes:
1. Aware/awake/spiritual/conscious/witnessing/heavenly/being/loving/non-form/stillness/silence/detached/non-identified with ego...
and
2. Unaware/sleeping consciousness/mindy/believing my thoughts/earthly/doing/non-loving/form/movement/noice/attached/identified with ego
You know, the basics... So when you write
quote:
Grounding is not to "stay as witness" or "self-inquire". On the contrary.
it fits perfectly with what I presented above. That's what I said - if I stay as witness or self-inquire I don't ground very well! So I only go into awareness/witnessing during meditation practices twice a day - the rest of the time I try to be as far away as possible from that - which for me then means: I'm very mindy, forcing myself out of any "opening" that may occur automatically!
Thanks for the info on difference between urge and inner call. It may be a semantic thing, but I get your point.
Haha, I'll try to go material for a while. But there's seldom a holiday being in company with my mind! Thanks also for your reassuring words. Great to read your post!
Louis, agree with Jim - awesome! Right on the spot! I should spend more time with the horses or something that keeps me busy and totally focused on material stuff, full concentration needed! I'll take a trip to the stables next weekend! Thanks! Helped a person repaint the flat yesterday and that was good. Also went to a party just to dance and socialize. It was boring as hell, but it kept me busy for a while. (But unfortunately I couldn't help blazing off some light to one of the guys there either - force came through and right hand waved in the air...  I went home just in case I suddenly would start levitating or do something else embarrassing...  )
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Edited by - emc on Apr 13 2008 12:05:09 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 1:05:15 PM
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More insights jarred by Sparkle's sparkling message......
Samadhi IS immersion. An artist deeply involved in her creation, a scientist absolutely absorbed in thinking through his theory is (at least according to Zen, if not yoga) in samadhi. Samadhi = silence. And silence is the "antidote" to dramatic experiences (or, for that matter, to excess energy...shiva and shakti and all that).
So it's not just about doing work...it's about doing work INTENSELY, to get into an absorption state (aka flow state). That IS silence, and it can easily accommodate any scale of mere experience.
Thanks, Louis.... |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 1:16:18 PM
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Hi emc
quote:
But unfortunately I couldn't help blazing off some light to one of the guys there either - force came through and right hand waved in the air... I went home just in case I suddenly would start levitating or do something else embarrassing... )
*laughing*.......
You are such a ..........original star emc! Thanks for making me laugh. Again
quote:
Me neither! I know only two modes:
1. Aware/awake/spiritual/conscious/witnessing/heavenly/being/loving/non-form/stillness/silence/detached/non-identified with ego...
and
2. Unaware/sleeping consciousness/mindy/believing my thoughts/earthly/doing/non-loving/form/movement/noice/attached/identified with ego
Yes.....but who registers both?
quote:
That's what I said - if I stay as witness or self-inquire I don't ground very well! So I only go into awareness/witnessing during meditation practices twice a day - the rest of the time I try to be as far away as possible from that - which for me then means: I'm very mindy, forcing myself out of any "opening" that may occur automatically!
See......this is just what I am talking about. You see......when I meditate; I don't go into "awareness/witnessing mode". I do not have that intention either.....All I do is intone the mantra......and come back to it if I am astray. I just give myself gladly...I just sink.....deep.....and there is no way I can translate the meditation and sort of intentionally take it with me for later. There is sacred residue, yes - but this is completely out of my hands. It is not mine.
And - the rest of the time; I therefore don't try to be as far away as possible from an "awareness/witnessing mode". The whole......concept....is just; I am just not familiar with that way of....functioning.
Sorry....for not being able to help you here, emc....
Is it not your awareness identified, that sees to it that there is no freedom of motion? It is almost like you are "witnessing" youself full time in order to catch yourself "witnessing".......catch 22 indeed. And you chose to keep it up, because it seems a better option than feeling the fear? The fear is painful.....but have you considered accepting it...... And not do what it tells you to? Do something joyful instead? Like Sparkles wonderful sailing?
And yes, overload brought me into this forum, and I have balanced on a fine edge ever since. Thanks to AYP and Yogani - and all you guys here - I am doing fine. No sunburn or eczema or extreme thirst....not for a long time now. The process in the head and the chest is as it is. It is purification. As long as there is balance, everything is ok. It has been quite some time now, since I needed to adjust. But neither do I add anything. I just..... practise consistantly. Twice a day....a touch of pranayama....and then deep meditation.
And the rest of the time...life brings situations that ensures mutual growth.
And the shine is everywhere.
Great with the hoarses
Yeah......they won't mind you waving or levitating either
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 1:28:50 PM
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Hey Jim, "So it's not just about doing work...it's about doing work INTENSELY, to get into an absorption state (aka flow state)."
Don't tell me THAT's the point of grounding by going deep into focus with the material???? That's the effect I DON'T need...!? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 1:44:20 PM
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Yes, Katrine, yesterday I saw myself meditate with a star above my head connecting with my crown. Beautiful scenery...
Don't be sorry, Katrine! Your already stable in mode 1. It me who is still flip-flopping, and unfortunately the flip into anything else than the so called "normal world" (considered all there is before any type of awakening) is feeding my overload... So I try to construct flop's all the time, back to the world of illusion... Perhaps it's futile... Thanks for your help anyway.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 1:54:14 PM
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quote:
Perhaps it's futile
Perhaps yes
You're still a star to me....emc!
I enjoy scenery....when not meditating  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 1:57:21 PM
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quote:
Your already stable in mode 1
Excuse me, but no.
I am very stubborn at times.
I resist and I kick.
But.......darn it.....I also know it is futile.
I can't seem to fool myself the way I used to (sigh)
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 2:10:45 PM
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Hi emc,
This is what I had meant by my earlier post to you to relax. (It was not in reference to the content of your post (which was awesome), it was more in reference to the energy of your posts.)
I will share something that has helped me a lot. It may or may not be relevant to you or anyone else... and I have not seen it mentioned anywhere, but this has been my observation.
This path I have seen is like a wave (like almost everything else in life)... there is a phase to add bhakti and intensity... and then a phase to relax and soak up the benefits of that intensity.
During the high phase you read, attend talks, have discussions, add practices. Then you will see you come to a point it feels like you are tired of thinking and learning and/or you feel like you are getting conflicting guidance from your inner guru.. or it's hard to tell you inner guru apart from your ego/mind. This is the point to let go and relax.. you keep up with the basic practices... but drop adding anything more than the basic twice a day routine. It's like cooking.. you add heat (intensity of bhakti) to the food being cooked, when it comes to a boil, you reduce the heat and let it simmer (just basic practice) and cook in the energy it picked up on high heat. So there is a phase of doing your practice with intensity, then relaxing and let your practice do you.
It is a delicate balance. At first the rise and fall come so close to each other that if you overdo a bit, you overload.. you don't catch the signals. Once you learn to catch the signals, you let go and enjoy the relax time.
It's like riding up the roller coaster, you use a lot of energy to move up.... then when its time for the roller coaster to start falling.. it makes no sense saying.. no I want to climb further or stay up there.. when you are on the downwards drop.. and you try and hold on with dear life or try to climb back up.. you put up resistance and get caught in the fear of the fall.. you will not enjoy the ride.. but you let go and enjoy the ride down and enjoy the energy.. you will not feel uncomfortable and you may actually begin to enjoy it... because this phase of relaxing teaches you just as much as the phase of intensity. Soon you find a right balance between these.
You may be at a point where you need to loosen your grip and allow yourself to free fall. Give your mind a break. When it starts to ask question like "is this true?".. say "I don't really care, I am tired, I need a break from spirituality". Just live in awareness (the gap.. which is silence and when there is silence there is no mind). Don't learn, don't analyze, don't question. Trust this for a few days... you will see the intensity will die.. but a bigger clarity will come your way.. the mind will be relaxed.. the body will follow.. and you will have a renewed burst of bhakti.
If you can pick on this natural ebb and tide.. you will rarely overload.. and if and when you do.. you will be able to flow right thru it too without any stories.. because it will be your relax phase (which will take a little learning).
The mind wants you to feel you are in control and if you give a break to the intensity you are losing out on something.. well don't believe the mind.. that is what it does.. convince you that it knows best and it is in control. If you let go that control and relax for a bit (and at times it may be a day or 2, at times it maybe a week.. rarely is it more if you truly relax)... the intensity and smoothness with which you will flow back is worth the break.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 3:48:17 PM
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Shanti, thanks for clarifying the "relax"-post!
I was with you all the way here until: "Just live in awareness (the gap.. which is silence and when there is silence there is no mind)."
So... this is the core of my question... You say we don't feed and increase energies by living IN awareness - the gap, the silence, in no-mind?????? Would you call that self-pacing and grounding???
My experience is the exact opposite. As soon as I go into that relaxation... symptoms boosts and I boil over again! So... no... I can't relax in that without spending the nights with itching eczemas. Are you saying I should continue to relax anyway and that it's only a "clunky stage" before I get the hang of it? Will the symptoms reduce then?
I appreciate your help, I'm just not very good at grasping this yet... |
Edited by - emc on Apr 13 2008 3:52:44 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2008 : 4:36:46 PM
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Well in my experience, when I am on my own and I move my awareness inwards.. I move into a no mind state of being in pure awareness. And other times, I am completely absorbed in my work at hand.. completely engaged in the world.. no matter what is going on with the body, "I" am not affected. "I" don't suffer. The only reason I would suffer is if my mind decided I was suffering.. and/or my awareness was on the pain/discomfort. So when you put your awareness on the energy, the energy will increase. If you can put your awareness on the silence and stay there, or get yourself busy... the symptoms go away.. rather, the symptoms are there but you wont be thinking about it... hence not suffering. This example has been given by many.. when you are in pain... and someone you enjoy talking to calls you, for that time, when you are talking, your pain is gone, well not gone, it's still there, but you are not thinking about it.
Now I am talking about headaches and don't know how it will be with itching eczema.
The other thing that I face at times is anger and/or depression. If I can catch it early, I can dissolve it in my silence/awareness, however, if I cant seem to catch it in time.. I go thru it knowing it is purification, it will go away, it always does (that one helps the most.. because before I would think it is eternal and I can never be happy and my life is one big depression), no one around me has anything to do with it.. and no matter how many stories my mind attaches to it.. be it present or past or future.. I don't let it stick.. or get drawn into it.. or attach any importance to it. I treat it like a child who is tired and tells her mom.. "I hate you" when her mom sends her to bed.
Dunno how you can implement what I have written in my post.. because your symptoms are different from mine. The only thing I can say is, once you are stable, if you catch the signals you get.. you can actually make this whole bhakti<---->self pacing thing work to your advantage. The way you let go and relax (reduce the intensity) may be different from the way I do it.
Sorry could not help you more emc.
PS: And.. I have seen.. if I am afraid I will overload.. I generally do. There is a difference in being careful and being fearful. |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 13 2008 9:00:18 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2008 : 12:42:25 AM
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Hey emc,
Please read this other thread, in particular what i wrote on self-pacing potential problem and Christi's answer:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3301
quote:
quote:
One question about AYP system: self-pacing awareness is very important indeed to not get burned by the kundalini syndrome but it can be also a trap. It is ego who decides self-pacing so this might a be problem when trying to dissolve a difficult blockage. In other words, the self-pacing decision becomes an escape to the total surrender of shakti trying to burn the blockage, especially tricky blockages found into the central channel which is non-dual as opposed as blockages found into dual channels so it could be a sort of catch 22 situation than some call a dead end.
Absolutely, it is a danger built into the system. And as you know there are many systems of spiritual practice with no self-pacing element built into them. Many Buddhist systems involve people making strong determinations. They decide to sit for a certain length of time every day for example, and not move whatever happens! Obviously this also comes with its dangers.
In AYP someone could self-pace themselves to a level where they are making no progress at all, or avoiding practices at a time when it would be most benefitial, and I'm sure it happens at times. It's a kind of "safety-first" system. But the alternative would involve a serious scaling back of powerful practices (to make the system safe), and perhaps much slower spiritual progress in the long run.
Hoping it might help, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Apr 14 2008 01:05:28 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2008 : 3:08:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
More insights jarred by Sparkle's sparkling message......
Samadhi IS immersion. An artist deeply involved in her creation, a scientist absolutely absorbed in thinking through his theory is (at least according to Zen, if not yoga) in samadhi. Samadhi = silence. And silence is the "antidote" to dramatic experiences (or, for that matter, to excess energy...shiva and shakti and all that).
So it's not just about doing work...it's about doing work INTENSELY, to get into an absorption state (aka flow state). That IS silence, and it can easily accommodate any scale of mere experience.
Thanks, Louis....
Hi Jim, thanks for the appreciation
The concentration I was thinking about would be rooted in the material. This seems to be essential for emc at the moment, would you say.
I agree that being fully absorbed in something is a form of samadhi in the zen and mindfulness tradition.
There are however, in my experience, different types or levels of this mindfulness.
The one that does not cause me overload is what I would describe as "identification mindfulness", where, when we look at a rock, it is just a rock, end of story - we don't look any deeper than that.
So we go around seeing everything with our labeling mind, but without lingering or getting involved in extra thoughts. This may seem boring but in fact it is so beautiful to see creation unfolding before our eyes just as material objects.
Whilst this slows the thoughts right down it does not necessarly bring one into the "gap".
As you say activities, especially active and energetic sports are very good for this, the mind simply does not have a chance to do anything other that concentrate from one object to the next.
Things that entail pondering would have a propensity for some people to shift into the silence of the gap.
So emc, it would appear to me that if you want to emulate what horse riding or other active sports would give, it might be possible for you to work on just concentrating on things in the identification/material/superficial mode. Do you think this is possible for you to develop and practice??
Just some feedback also on what Shweta describes above from my experience of it.
I found myself experimenting with going into the gap or the silence behind thoughts. At times when I would be walking slowly I would click into it and would get an energy resonance throughout my body. I found after doing this for a while it gave me some overload.
But last week I found myself being pulled into it whilst doing walking meditation. I was also aware that I could not afford any overload at this time so it came to me to make a mental shift and bring in "peace" into the silence instead of energy.
This worked a treat, it gave a peaceful serene sense instead of energy, and no sign of any overload.
So maybe that is also something you could try, calming the energy by bringing in peace.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2008 : 3:17:52 PM
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like a walking "Samyama"....
Lovely, Sparkle |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2008 : 11:57:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Ok, folks! Help me out!
As many of you already know, I have now for a couple of months been overloaded with energies, suffered the consequences and luckily it now seems to stabilize slowly. This has brought fears of a kind I have never encountered - only due to my neurotic mind of course. So the questions are not to be answered from an advaita position, please (of the sort "oh, just trust the process, you're always IT anyway... jada jada"), but from a position where my neurotic mind can get some practical help.
Does anyone recognize this situation? If not - how do you handle self-pacing without getting neurotic? Every tip is welcome.
Hi EMC,
As I read your comments it occurs to me to wonder if symptoms of fear, and symptoms of depression are indeed really some overload to your spiritual and yoga program OR whether it is due to other factors. After all, anxiety and depression are so called co-morbid conditions that are in other words associated symptoms that co-exist in someone who is depressed. And so I wonder if your problems are not just something that can be simply plugged into the gospel according to AYP and instead need to be dealt with in a formal psychotherapeutic or analytic paradigm with or without medication.
You know not every symptom that makes us suffer is due to our yoga, but rather the yoga may be making you feel worse, and not contain the cure for the disease process. Just a thought. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 01:36:44 AM
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Thanks all who have contributed to this topic!
When I read it I get a feeling there is something quite important that nobody has formulated properly before, at least I haven't heard about it! But I start to see a pattern of what you are saying. Could it be more or less like this?:
At first, our nervous systems are impure and just a little bit of too much silence (from meditation, other practices or automatic) will create overload. So beginners are adviced to go really slowly, adding one thing at a time and carefully try it out. If we are already in a mess due to overload - cut back thoroughly and take a very, very slow way back to practices!
But later, somewhere along the road, our nervous system is pure enough so that a fundamental shift can happen, where silence no longer necessarily creates overload - IF handled in the right way, which in my interpretation from you sounds something like:
- don't get hung up on it, just let it be there while you live your life and be sure to still do grounding activities instead of spiritual activities
- don't be afraid of it giving overload anylonger, or if it does, accept the symptoms that may occur - fear itself may cause more symptoms!
- don't mind the energies that it brings, ask for peace instead (as Louis suggests), stay in the peaceful gap and relax (as Shanti says) or getting into the flow (as Jim says)...let yourself drop down into your heart as Steve reports in the "On looking"-thread:
quote:
As I mentioned in my earlier post as we progress further when done properly, being in the Heart and letting the Love work can actually serve as an aid to self-pacing. An opening, an outflow is created for the Love to radiate and be shared with others. This helps to lessen the damming effect of energies in our body that have no place to go. And as we learn to unwind, to relax more, to smile sweeter and freer to our Heart, to be in the Heart and let the Love work better, blockages that cause some self-pacing issues are more easily released, removed and dissolved by the Love without our willful control and direction. It is a process, it does not happen over night. We learn and the process improves just like everything else.
So... what increased overload in me from the start may perhaps not do that anylonger? I may have come to that shift and am now able to contain this silence continously, it's just that my mind is left in fear due to old stories, and if I just drop that fear, I won't create more overload!
Is that something like it? If so, it's a very important addition to the realm of self-pacing that is totally new to me!
I'll try it out! I will not intentionally do anything, just let the peaceful silence embrace me, then, and continue to do grounding activities and see what happens!
John, thanks for your kind concern, but I do believe I'm not very depressed at the moment (not more than I've been all my life, with or without medication, therapies etc etc ). Meditation is by far the most efficient therapy of all kinds! Never felt better in my life - just having some overload concerns...
Since it seems ok by most folks here to continue to fly high in silence/heart AT THE SAME TIME as we have overload and do grounding and self-pacing... well... then that is new to me, and I have to try it out! |
Edited by - emc on Apr 15 2008 01:38:21 AM |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 03:08:02 AM
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Hi EMC,
If you started this post entitled "self pacing and neuroticism", just to initiate a discussion about AYP topics thats understandable.
But I was hearing you describe depression and fear/anxiety, and those are medical issues. Depression runs in families, and is a medical illness. If you are depressed get help. If you are not depressed, maybe you just meant it as a figure of speech.
Write me an email, or something, because I would be happy to talk it over.
Secondly, I didn't want readers of the forums to assume that their depression and anxiety are somehow just symptoms of kriya yoga or AYP yoga "overload", and neglect the medical issue of getting help.
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Edited by - x.j. on Apr 15 2008 03:31:11 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 08:26:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Thanks all who have contributed to this topic!
When I read it I get a feeling there is something quite important that nobody has formulated properly before, at least I haven't heard about it! But I start to see a pattern of what you are saying. Could it be more or less like this?:
At first, our nervous systems are impure and just a little bit of too much silence (from meditation, other practices or automatic) will create overload. So beginners are adviced to go really slowly, adding one thing at a time and carefully try it out. If we are already in a mess due to overload - cut back thoroughly and take a very, very slow way back to practices!
But later, somewhere along the road, our nervous system is pure enough so that a fundamental shift can happen, where silence no longer necessarily creates overload - IF handled in the right way, which in my interpretation from you sounds something like:
- don't get hung up on it, just let it be there while you live your life and be sure to still do grounding activities instead of spiritual activities
- don't be afraid of it giving overload anylonger, or if it does, accept the symptoms that may occur - fear itself may cause more symptoms!
- don't mind the energies that it brings, ask for peace instead (as Louis suggests), stay in the peaceful gap and relax (as Shanti says) or getting into the flow (as Jim says)...let yourself drop down into your heart as Steve reports in the "On looking"-thread:
quote:
As I mentioned in my earlier post as we progress further when done properly, being in the Heart and letting the Love work can actually serve as an aid to self-pacing. An opening, an outflow is created for the Love to radiate and be shared with others. This helps to lessen the damming effect of energies in our body that have no place to go. And as we learn to unwind, to relax more, to smile sweeter and freer to our Heart, to be in the Heart and let the Love work better, blockages that cause some self-pacing issues are more easily released, removed and dissolved by the Love without our willful control and direction. It is a process, it does not happen over night. We learn and the process improves just like everything else.
So... what increased overload in me from the start may perhaps not do that anylonger? I may have come to that shift and am now able to contain this silence continously, it's just that my mind is left in fear due to old stories, and if I just drop that fear, I won't create more overload!
Is that something like it? If so, it's a very important addition to the realm of self-pacing that is totally new to me!
I think it sounds right emc.
Please note, when I say, don't be afraid, I don't mean be reckless either. No need to be fearful, but do be careful.. I would not do deep meditate for 3-4 hrs a day and/or add loads of energy practices either. However, don't be fearful either.
You had once (long back) told me, "don't be afraid of things, because you attract what you fear". I don't know about law of attraction really.. but I do know, as you purify further and further, you can make your mind do anything (esp. fear).. if you are afraid and do something that you are afraid will overload you.. you are constantly thinking of it and/or actually looking for the overload symptoms and this can result in your mind manifesting the symptoms even when it is not there... and then the mind goes.. "ahh.. I think I am overloading".. and it is very easy to bring on full blown symptoms even if they are not there or are there to a very minor degree. You had also told me, "energy is energy, its how your body reacts to it, determines if it's good or bad".. I will just modify it a bit.. if your "mind" thinks it's bad, it is bad. That is why, occupying the mind in non-spiritual stuff and/or being in a "no mind" silence/peace state will prevent the mind from manifesting any symptoms that the "mind" thinks there should be.
Once again, for people starting out, please, do not overdo. Overload symptoms are real, so self pacing is important. All we are saying here is don't fear overload.. be aware of it and self pace accordingly.
emc, it takes a bit of time to convince the mind that it does not have to fear overloads. Esp. for people like you and me who have gone through major overloads before we started AYP. But it is possible to let this fear go too.
Thanks for starting this topic. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 09:09:31 AM
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quote:
emc: Since it seems ok by most folks here to continue to fly high in silence/heart AT THE SAME TIME as we have overload and do grounding and self-pacing... well... then that is new to me, and I have to try it out!
I think flying high in silence means being present with people without expectation or without thoughts and not meditative silence and simultaneous expectation of experience. It is definitely a balancing act and I find it difficult too. We're not perfect and maybe it's the ideal of perfectionism that creates a lot of the problems.
I read a book years ago on that when we have unrealistic expectation of perfection and reality is anything than this than it creates depression. In other words, if we have a mental ideal that we are going to be this other worldly 'superman', as david calls it, then it's really just setting ourselves up for failure. Why can't I be like this sage? Why isn't my speech as eloquent? Why am I not able to heal people? Why can't I do this? What am I missing that everyone else has that I don't have? You know, this kind of negative rationalization for not being present.
If we look at it from the vantage point that some are great artists, musicians, scientist, sages, et al, then maybe it can take some weight off of our shoulders.
When I was younger I wanted to be a professional singer and sang for a band and someone said, 'Oh my God, I heard you sing and it sounded like a sick dog': I was really upset at the time. You know, no matter how much I wanted it, it just wasn't my thing. If I had years of vocal training it still wouldn't have mattered, since it wasn't going to change my voice, although it would inevitably have had a positive affect realizing later that this training helped me to discover that I really love being an orator or lecturer, or whatever example we want to use. So if we look at spirituality in this way we can also see it as an opening of discovery of who we truly are and stillness in action can mean making the necessary outward changes, as well, that will affect our internal world too.
Spirituality can be an unhealthy avoidance from reality or confusion over what it means to be liberated. Maybe we may be under the impression that to know who we are will create this all knowingness or false perception of Godliness that was taught, when it may be something as simple as listening to ourselves and discovering who we are at are being. So anything is possible, but we have to take realistic steps to get there. In other words, it doesn't matter if who I am is a great pianist if I'm studying to become a lawyer. There will be a conflict of interest and suffering.
Anyway, another perspective on the topic.
Namaste:
VIL
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 10:14:52 AM
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Yes, great thread and summing up emc
Something Julied said some time ago help me also. quote:
Hello Almond - sometimes I find that the sense of hugeness, the weight and pressure at a chakra can be eased by considering your previous state of being there is just too small. Like a cage, or container. The openings there, new energies, whatever are causing the area to be bigger - and the hurt of it is simply the bigger feeling pinned in by the walls of your former experience. What I do, and I mostly do this for heart and crown, is visualize as if I'm physically relaxing muscles around the chakra, and I allow for acceptance for a sense of more. ..
Finding it hard to describe actually. I'm terribly visual and kinesthetic, so for me, it was like imagining what I would tell a crying child who was being asked to jam her feet into too small shoes. How much rationalizing and patience is needed there?? Possibly none??? Just a new, bigger pair of shoes, as fast as possible?
From:http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3259#27925
Just thought it might add another string to the harp of self-pacing |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 2:39:11 PM
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John, it is normal to have fears and sadness. For it to become a medical issue it would have to be so extreme that it started to impair my life somehow, and it doesn't. Haven't done since I started meditating. And... the therapies recommended nowadays, anyway, are the third wave cognitive therapies like ACT - which is... mindfulness! Circuit closed.
Shanti, thanks for reminders of my own words and confirming that I got it somewhat right. I definitely see the difference between fear and sane caution! I've always been cautious, it's only after this last tough overload I got scared to end up there again!
VIL, nice post! Appreciated that perspective. Those mind traps are well known here! Do you remember which book it was?
Louis... I actually think you might bring me a very important piece of the puzzle there! Thanks a lot! I recall the first time I got headaches, sometime in the very beginning, and my qi gong teacher said "Why are you keeping it inside your head? You have no limits... let it out!" And she dragged my consciousness out from the head with her hands. It was the first time I felt what "expanding consciousness" felt like, and *poff* the headache was gone! I quickly learned to use that to ease headaches... Now, with Julie's advice there, I understand I have only used it for head and heart and stomach. Never occurred to me I could do it with every chakra! It's my root chakra that is mainly acting like a pressure cooker - and I just realized today...: I'm holding the pressure inside of me instead of letting it expand as it wants to!
I took a walk, and while I walked I just let go of the pressure, and relaxation came! It still itches, though, but I'll let go of more steam and see where it wants to go!
It also helps very much to say "I don't understand any of this and it's ok"
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Edited by - emc on Apr 15 2008 2:42:30 PM |
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Selfpacing and Neuroticism
