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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 6:53:22 PM
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OK -- I am starting to get into the secret chamber but....
my uvula seems to always go in too. And this makes me gag.
I can't seem to get the uvula to stay under the tongue. It just seems that when I start to push the tongue into the chamber, in goes the uvula.
Any ideas anyone?
-D |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 8:05:28 PM
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Hi David:
Try the "side entrance," meaning near either the left or right connection point of the edge of the soft palate with the extreme back of the roof of the mouth. Depending on personal anatomy, one will be easier to reach than the other, and whichever one it is will always be the shortest route into kechari for you. If you go in with the tip of the tongue there, the tongue will then slide to the center behind the soft palate and uvula. That way you are going around the uvula, so to speak, and it will be less likely to fold up under the tongue, not that there is anything wrong with that. Once stage 2 is in full swing, the uvula will slide back down under the tongue even when it is folded up on initial entry.
Also, once stage 2 and beyond are well established, the practitioner can go in anywhere across the back edge of the soft palate, including "up the middle" through the uvula. The point of entry matters most in the beginning, when minimizing the distance and getting around the uvula can make the difference between getting in and not getting in. This is when finger help (pushing the tongue back from underneath) comes in handy too. Later on, these fine points don't matter much anymore. It is just in we go, wherever and whenever we like. No finger help is needed then either.
Victor's suggestion of "going forward" over the top of the back side of the soft palate is a good one. When we are in stage 2 especially, the feeling is much like the tongue is laying flat on the bottom of the mouth, except it is laying flat on the "second floor" instead, which is the top (back side) of the soft palate. Stages 3 and 4 extend forward and up from there. It is a lot like sticking your tongue out, except the tongue is going forward and up instead of out the front of the mouth.
That way you can stick your tongue out at someone without them seeing it, and be stroking the "secret spot" for ecstatic conductivity and enlightenment at the same time! 
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 04:33:44 AM
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Thanks a lot for your reply Yogani.
Actually, odd though it may seem, I am very much going in the side-entrance, but the uvula is still going in. I can't seem to be able to avoid it. Again, unusual anatomy perhaps? I'll play with it, varying pressure and so on and maybe I'll get through the problem.
But fortunately I think my tongue is plenty long enough now anyway to go over the uvula as you say -- the uvula just seems to be causing gagging when it goes in and that should be temporary.
Yes, it is very much like pushing the tongue forward. I had expected to feel so much more like 'up' but it is indeed more forward in reality, and also much more like forward subjectively. Perhaps this part of how I got confused. I can get the tongue in significantly (though then I gag currently and have to pull it out) and the feeling is most extraordinary. The whole thing feels so unexpected, almost as if the chamber there is in another dimension or has a magical existence.
Thanks,
-D
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi David:
Try the "side entrance," meaning near either the left or right connection point of the edge of the soft palate with the extreme back of the roof of the mouth. Depending on personal anatomy, one will be easier to reach than the other, and whichever one it is will always be the shortest route into kechari for you. If you go in with the tip of the tongue there, the tongue will then slide to the center behind the soft palate and uvula. That way you are going around the uvula, so to speak, and it will be less likely to fold up under the tongue, not that there is anything wrong with that. Once stage 2 is in full swing, the uvula will slide back down under the tongue even when it is folded up on initial entry.
Also, once stage 2 and beyond are well established, the practitioner can go in anywhere across the back edge of the soft palate, including "up the middle" through the uvula. The point of entry matters most in the beginning, when minimizing the distance and getting around the uvula can make the difference between getting in and not getting in. This is when finger help (pushing the tongue back from underneath) comes in handy too. Later on, these fine points don't matter much anymore. It is just in we go, wherever and whenever we like. No finger help is needed then either.
Victor's suggestion of "going forward" over the top of the back side of the soft palate is a good one. When we are in stage 2 especially, the feeling is much like the tongue is laying flat on the bottom of the mouth, except it is laying flat on the "second floor" instead, which is the top (back side) of the soft palate. Stages 3 and 4 extend forward and up from there. It is a lot like sticking your tongue out, except the tongue is going forward and up instead of out the front of the mouth.
That way you can stick your tongue out at someone without them seeing it, and be stroking the "secret spot" for ecstatic conductivity and enlightenment at the same time!
The guru is in you.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 28 2005 09:57:04 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 2:38:29 PM
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All this talk of kechari has me intrigued. I've reached this place in the lessons, and although I and my tongue aren't quite ready to make that leap, I'd dearly love to be able to explore a little. Or, better stated, when it's time to explore, I'd like to be prepared. What does anyone think of a little preparatory frenum snipping? Currently my tongue can reach back into the soft palate a short distance, but at some point clipping will be necessary if I want to go further. David - when you spontaneously clipped, was it out of curiosity, or did you have some kind of intuition that it was right to do so? I really want to do it, but wanted some imput before I do. Thanks!
meg |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 5:11:20 PM
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Give it a try and be careful Meg. Its best to underdo at first than do too much and get achy and scared away from continuing.
I am glad to see a couple of folks going into this practice as I was starting to get lonely thinking that I was the only one in the online world doing Kechari! No doubt it is an extremely rare practice outside of India and no doubt rare there as well.
Most Yogis doing Kechari don't appear to be interested in sharing this on the internet or are too involved with their Sadhana to get into such a modern thing. I am so grateful to Yogani for being the ONLY one in the world that I have seen who has made this practice public beyond quoting an ancient scripture here and there. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 5:20:52 PM
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Hi Meg,
yes, I did take a clip or two out of my frenum years ago, going on nothing but intuition and desire. No, it wasn't curiousity really...
I did know that pushing the tongue up to the roof of the mouth was a yogic practice, and I was taught it, but I knew no more than that. Anyway, I started doing that practice of pushing my tongue up, and had been doing a lot of meditation for some time. I got the 'urge' to get my tongue further, and when it became clear what was in the way, I decided to try to clip it. :)
I suppose that urge comes from experiencing that it is doing something for you, and wanting it to do more for you.
As regards preparatory clipping, do you mean clipping more than you need, for the future? Well, sure, why not ... but no reason to hold yourself back from the actual practice itself until you actually encounter a point you don't yet want to cross.
Regards,
-David
quote:
Originally posted by meg
All this talk of kechari has me intrigued. I've reached this place in the lessons, and although I and my tongue aren't quite ready to make that leap, I'd dearly love to be able to explore a little. Or, better stated, when it's time to explore, I'd like to be prepared. What does anyone think of a little preparatory frenum snipping? Currently my tongue can reach back into the soft palate a short distance, but at some point clipping will be necessary if I want to go further. David - when you spontaneously clipped, was it out of curiosity, or did you have some kind of intuition that it was right to do so? I really want to do it, but wanted some imput before I do. Thanks!
meg
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 28 2005 5:25:23 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 5:24:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
I am so grateful to Yogani for being the ONLY one in the world that I have seen who has made this practice public beyond quoting an ancient scripture here and there.
Oh yeah. I'd have probably been enjoying the benefits for years if it had been brought out and made public years ago.
Of course, the Internet had to come before Yogani.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 6:27:17 PM
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What I meant by preparatory clipping is taking small clips now, so that when I'm ready to go into the practice, my tongue will be there with me. But realistically, as my tongue and curiosity and desire grow, it's not likely that I'll wait too long to begin exploring. Since Victor brought up the subject of not overdoing it, I'll admit a hesitancy to dive into it head first, as it's a little intimidating. I don't gag well. Any reports of anyone ever dying of premature kechari? :\ I feel like I'm standing at the entrance to a magic cave, peering into the dark, and I want to shine a light in there.
m |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 7:56:18 PM
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| What I meant by not overdoing has to do with the clipping. You don't want to cut yourself too deeply and then feel trauma that will prevent you from continuing. I wouldn't worry at all about doing the practice itself, or for that matter stretching your tongue by pulling it out, drying it off a bit and just gently stretching it with your hand. that worked well for me when I was developing the practice itslef. Once you start clipping your tongue I have no doubt that you will want to explore and play with kechari and I would just enjoy that whenever you get a chance (with no one looking). I wouldn't worry about gagging at all, just about care in the snipping process. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 10:33:21 PM
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Hi Meg,
why not practice? The really big transition is getting into stage 2, and you can wait outside that door as long as you want if you think you need to.
Or are you already at that door to stage 2, wanting to delay going in? And wondering if you should snip-while-you wait? (I see nothing wrong with snipping-while-you wait -- and nothing wrong with delaying going in if it feels right to.)
One other thing to be said for practice --- it was only through regular practice that I developed the desire to go further and started snipping. So there's another reason to practice -- it can stimulate the desire for more.
-David
quote:
Originally posted by meg
What I meant by preparatory clipping is taking small clips now, so that when I'm ready to go into the practice, my tongue will be there with me. But realistically, as my tongue and curiosity and desire grow, it's not likely that I'll wait too long to begin exploring. Since Victor brought up the subject of not overdoing it, I'll admit a hesitancy to dive into it head first, as it's a little intimidating. I don't gag well. Any reports of anyone ever dying of premature kechari? :\ I feel like I'm standing at the entrance to a magic cave, peering into the dark, and I want to shine a light in there.
m
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 10:43:52 PM
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One thing I found is that the 'trauma' tended to be worse for significant-snips in the earlier stages. As more of the frenum gets eradicated, what remains tends to be even less sensitive.
For the stretching the tongue exercises, I merely use a cotton handkerchief -- I use it to hold the tongue, much like you would hold something hot with a towel. This makes for a very good grip.
Stretching/milking the tongue, btw, buys you only two things: one, it may get you a few millimeters gain in the length of your tongue and then you will hit the frenum limit. That few millimeters gain maxes out early and never gets longer.
The other thing it will help with is getting tendon fibers to the surface. This can speed up the readiness for the next snipping.
BTW, one of the things that told me how powerful amaroli was for me was that I could immediately see myself healing faster as a result of it. I can do a significant clipping job now about every ten days or so. It used to be well over two weeks for a significant job to heal.
Regards,
-david
quote:
Originally posted by Victor
What I meant by not overdoing has to do with the clipping. You don't want to cut yourself too deeply and then feel trauma that will prevent you from continuing. I wouldn't worry at all about doing the practice itself, or for that matter stretching your tongue by pulling it out, drying it off a bit and just gently stretching it with your hand. that worked well for me when I was developing the practice itslef. Once you start clipping your tongue I have no doubt that you will want to explore and play with kechari and I would just enjoy that whenever you get a chance (with no one looking). I wouldn't worry about gagging at all, just about care in the snipping process.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 01 2005 5:11:40 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 10:55:43 PM
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David, from what i gather of your process you may not need to snip anymore. Once the tongue is comfortably resting on the inner nostril holes one doesn't really need to snip. Then perhaps after a year or so of practice of stage 3 if you want to go to stage 4 then you may want to clip again, i don't know. Stage b3 is a very good place to rest while doing practice and helps accelerate progress quite a bit.
As for stage 4 while I belive that my tongue may have the necessary length the tip is a bit thick to enter the inner nostrils and my practice of stage 3 is very satisfying so I am going to wait awhile before going further. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 09:52:56 AM
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Yes, Victor, it is true that I may not need to snip for some time. I can probably reach stage three too even now, but in these early days I'm even going to stay at stage 2 for a while.
Still, I might do what Meg said --- I might snip in advance. I have a very comfortable snipping routine going, and I think that my frenum may be entirely gone if I snip for another few months.
quote:
Originally posted by Victor
David, from what i gather of your process you may not need to snip anymore. Once the tongue is comfortably resting on the inner nostril holes one doesn't really need to snip. Then perhaps after a year or so of practice of stage 3 if you want to go to stage 4 then you may want to clip again, i don't know. Stage b3 is a very good place to rest while doing practice and helps accelerate progress quite a bit.
As for stage 4 while I belive that my tongue may have the necessary length the tip is a bit thick to enter the inner nostrils and my practice of stage 3 is very satisfying so I am going to wait awhile before going further.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 09 2005 12:18:26 PM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2005 : 4:00:15 PM
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Thanks all for this informative discussion thread. I have been snipping very slightly for nearly a year. A couple of them recently were pretty "meaty" snips. My tendon is now exposed. I am not sure if I trimmed some of the fibers or not. It seems like I did. My mouth tends to heal very quickly - usually within a day or two. I am also at the stage of trying to get around the uvula. It feels so very close but I have not yet made it around the bend. I push my finger in and try whenever I get a chance and I think that it is just a matter of time. I am really looking forward to achieving stage 2.
Paul |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2005 : 5:18:34 PM
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Hello Paul,
>>> I am not sure if I trimmed some of the fibers or not. It seems like I did.
The snipping of tendon fibers should be happening in all of the frenum-snipping you are doing. You wouldn't necessarily be conscious of it because the fibers are really tiny and can't be seen individually, but you can see the evidence of them when you pull the tongue because their tautness makes the frenum hard.
If you are doing meaty snips and healing in a day or two, that's remarkably fast. Maybe you mean meaty in a different way than I do -- or maybe you are Superman. 
-David
quote:
Originally posted by lucidinterval1
Thanks all for this informative discussion thread. I have been snipping very slightly for nearly a year. A couple of them recently were pretty "meaty" snips. My tendon is now exposed. I am not sure if I trimmed some of the fibers or not. It seems like I did. My mouth tends to heal very quickly - usually within a day or two. I am also at the stage of trying to get around the uvula. It feels so very close but I have not yet made it around the bend. I push my finger in and try whenever I get a chance and I think that it is just a matter of time. I am really looking forward to achieving stage 2.
Paul
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 01 2005 6:07:41 PM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2005 : 11:09:20 PM
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It seemed like I was making tiny snips forever. A drop of blood or two would flow and then it would heal. After it healed it seemed that the snipping had no impact. The frenum seemed perfectly intact. When I made the meaty cuts there was a pool of blood. One of them also seemed to completely heal with no discernable change. About a week ago I snipped another healthy chunk. Every couple of days thereafter I would resnip the same area to make sure that it was permanant. I think that I may have more surface skin over the frenum fibers than most. It seemed that cutting that surface skin would just heal over. I'm no expert on this, just a determined guy who wants to get past this. Stage 1 kechari is very simple form me. I do it alot during the day without realizing it. My tongue reaches the back of the soft palate easily now - so maybe those tiny snips were effective?!
Paul |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2005 : 11:53:54 PM
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When I made the meaty cuts there was a pool of blood.
Wow, if there are vampires around who have turned away from the dark side, I know where we can still send them if they are shorta juice.
Well sounds like you are fairly enthusiastic if you got through that without balking forever. Well, one or two things about that.
When you start doing significant-snipping, you are facing risks of more blood, or even hitting some of the minor veins near the frenum. One question is, I wonder if you are being indiscriminate in how you cut? The place you cut should always be capable of being taut when you stretch it. But maybe you are not making mistakes, maybe you just do have some more skin over the frenum.... What do you think of this question?
Another thing I could say -- probably avoid snipping very deep. Use a sequence of shallower snips instead. And any spot that is really painful is probably not frenum.
So, you're probably also facing more risk of hitting a minor vein. If you do hit a minor vein, (and they can be small and could still impress you with their output) maybe you should know what to do. Just appply pressure with a clean finger on the cut. The blood will clot in a few minutes and you probably won't need to be convinced of 'enough for today'. If you don't apply pressure, a lot more comes out before the clotting. You certainly won't die, but it's more fun to actually stop the bleeding all told (despite the impressive spectacle).
Also, rinse your mouth (and the cut) out well with water, particularly after a significant snip.
Sometimes you won't see much discernable change from any particular snipping, even if it gets a lot. Another thing you might notice is that the swelling from the healing of a significant snip may actually shorten the tongue a little bit for much of the healing process.
My own experience though is that while there is still a prominent ridge of frenum fibers on the unstretched tongue, you can get a lot of bang-for-your-snip.
Later, if and when that prominent ridge is gone, progress is more slow, and if you want to go faster, it might be time for 'tooled talavya'..... [insert lightening-strike and a howl of wolf... ]. But the chances are good that you'd be in stage 2 before then anyway.
Best regards and take care,
-D
quote:
Originally posted by lucidinterval1
It seemed like I was making tiny snips forever. A drop of blood or two would flow and then it would heal. After it healed it seemed that the snipping had no impact. The frenum seemed perfectly intact. When I made the meaty cuts there was a pool of blood. One of them also seemed to completely heal with no discernable change. About a week ago I snipped another healthy chunk. Every couple of days thereafter I would resnip the same area to make sure that it was permanant. I think that I may have more surface skin over the frenum fibers than most. It seemed that cutting that surface skin would just heal over. I'm no expert on this, just a determined guy who wants to get past this. Stage 1 kechari is very simple form me. I do it alot during the day without realizing it. My tongue reaches the back of the soft palate easily now - so maybe those tiny snips were effective?!
Paul
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 02 2005 5:07:33 PM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2005 : 3:13:53 PM
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David,
I don't really believe that I cut through any veins. The bleeding stopped pretty quickly. I have been raising the tongue up to make the frenum visibly taut. I certainly haven't experienced any pain other than a little sting that lasts for a few seconds. I'll keep you posted of my progress. My intent is not to hack my way through this in no time (although that is tempting eh?). Now that the frenum is exposed under the surface skin. I plan on making very tiny snips.
Thanks for your concern though brother!
Paul |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 02 2005 3:41:08 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2005 : 5:06:55 PM
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Hello Paul,
glad to hear that you didn't snip a vein. Anyway, I suppose it's no harm for people to know what to do if it happens.
quote:
>>I certainly haven't experienced any pain other than a little sting that lasts for a few seconds.
Once you get down to the frenum proper, it's almost painless.
quote:
Now that the frenum is exposed under the surface skin. I plan on making very tiny snips
One nice approach, and very safe, is to make a horizontal chain of these small snips, across the frenum; a particular snip can cut into the edge of the the last one, if you know what I mean, and it will make one longer shallow slit across the frenum surface. This doesn't really increase the risk, but will considerably speed up the progress. (You can also go down into this slit and do it again...)
Snips across the frenum will speed it up; up and down the frenum won't help as much. This lesson of Yogani's explains why:
http://www.aypsite.org/223.html
However, one things I did do with some success is to simply pepper the frenum surface with a sequence of many, many tiny snips. This is also low risk, and can speed it up significantly too.
Best regards,
-David
quote:
Originally posted by lucidinterval1
David,
I don't really believe that I cut through any veins. The bleeding stopped pretty quickly. I have been raising the tongue up to make the frenum visibly taut. I certainly haven't experienced any pain other than a little sting that lasts for a few seconds. I'll keep you posted of my progress. My intent is not to hack my way through this in no time (although that is tempting eh?). Now that the frenum is exposed under the surface skin. I plan on making very tiny snips.
Thanks for your concern though brother!
Paul
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2005 : 11:42:59 PM
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I've found, by the way, that this problem, of pushing the uvula in, just cleared itself up. I think that the elastic tendon which guards that chamber just needed to stretch a little to open things up. Once things became more open, it all became easier.
-D
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
OK -- I am starting to get into the secret chamber but....
my uvula seems to always go in too. And this makes me gag.
I can't seem to get the uvula to stay under the tongue. It just seems that when I start to push the tongue into the chamber, in goes the uvula.
Any ideas anyone?
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 08 2005 11:44:11 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2005 : 02:13:32 AM
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I've taken a couple of snips at my frenum. I was expecting a bit more drama in the form of blood and pain, but had neither. It was a big deal for me to do this, as it signified my intention to move more deeply into my practices, strengthen my commitment, etc. As far as kechari is concerned, I'm still miles away, but oddly enough, I've been experiencing a considerable increase of energy in my system when I do the pranayama, as well as the meditation. It's as if the ON switch has been turned, and I'm starting to "get" it. Fantastic!
Is it a stretch to associate the frenum snipping/intention setting with the increased ecstatic conductivity? They seemed to happen almost in unison. I'm willing to call it a coincidence, but wondered if anyone has had a similar experience. There seem to be so many surprises on this path - just about the time I start to get bored, a new technique engages me, or another sensation comes up.
meg |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2005 : 09:31:46 AM
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Congratulations Meg on your big step forward! I had a similar experience with increased ecstatic conductivity just after a snip. It may be that the level of bhakti is higher (which may have prompted the snip). The higher emotional desire to progress forward can definitely increase ecstatic conductivity. Emotions have a strong impact on our energy levels. In fact, devotion is part of Niyama.
I know what you mean when you say "I'm starting to get it". I went through a similar phase. The "Aha!" phase. I think this is what Yogani refers to as the "clunkiness" smoothing out. It all starts to make perfect sense. Best of luck Meg!
Paul |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2005 : 12:17:53 PM
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Hello Meg,
congratulations on starting to snip. And I'm glad to see a Yogini join the snippers -- it makes us look more balanced, somehow.
-David
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ebby
Germany
8 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 4:14:29 PM
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Hello, I am a new member here and I read so many articles on Kechari Mudra and Tabalaya Kriya. And of course after reading all of the letters and messages here in this site. I am ready to snip as well, after my long practice with Tabalaya Kriya. I am a follower of Kriya Yoga and know that it is an intrigal part of the practice for future elevations towards spiritual progress. I am convinced though that this is not the only way to arrive to "Rome". But this way "Kechari" I feel is the right way for me. So like Meg, I am on my way too. Om Shanti
Ebony-Khadija Davis |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 5:14:30 PM
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Hello Ebby,
Welcome to the snippers club! I have followed Kriya as well, although I never went through with the initiation. I was having a hard time with having to keep the SRF thing secret. Thank goodness that Yogani came along with these teachings. My wife and I work through the system together and it is nice to be able to talk openly about the practices.
A quick update on my kechari progress. I can get the tongue behind the uvula now and hold it there for quite some time. I cannot yet remove my finger. When I do, the tongue slips back in front of the uvula. I think I may get to stage 2 any time now. Hopefully within a week!
Best of luck and if you are able could you explain what Tabalaya is?
Paul |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 5:16:12 PM
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| welcome Ebby. I wish you well on your snipping practice! once you achieve Kechari you will find it the most natural thing in the world and simply a normal part of the evolution of your meditation and kriya practice. |
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kechari -- can't stop pushing the uvula in
