|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 4:51:44 PM
|
My spiritual quest has always been for the truth. When I say truth, I want to know god/ life/ the universe for whatever it actually really is whether I like the answer or not or even if it fits into any pre-conceived notions I may or may not have. Just hit me with the plain truth whatever it may be is how I feel!
I have noticed that Yoga around the world seems to pride itself on its non-denominational nature; not religious in itself yet all religions are welcome. Why then are we encouraged to worship something or someone or to use a religious icon, or deity? Isn't this encouraging an initial delusion or perpetuating our ignorance in some way? Can God be all things and if so it feels like a bit of a cheap sell-out. Worship itself also doesn't feel that comfortable for me, probably my western hemisphere upbringing but how can we worship a guru, a deity or religious figurehead and still find the same truth in the end. Isn't there one underlying truth that we will all come to know or is Yoga trying to be everything to everyone?
Any comments? |
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 5:41:40 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem9911
My spiritual quest has always been for the truth. When I say truth, I want to know god/ life/ the universe for whatever it actually really is whether I like the answer or not or even if it fits into any pre-conceived notions I may or may not have. Just hit me with the plain truth whatever it may be is how I feel!
I have noticed that Yoga around the world seems to pride itself on its non-denominational nature; not religious in itself yet all religions are welcome. Why then are we encouraged to worship something or someone or to use a religious icon, or deity? Isn't this encouraging an initial delusion or perpetuating our ignorance in some way? Can God be all things and if so it feels like a bit of a cheap sell-out. Worship itself also doesn't feel that comfortable for me, probably my western hemisphere upbringing but how can we worship a guru, a deity or religious figurehead and still find the same truth in the end. Isn't there one underlying truth that we will all come to know or is Yoga trying to be everything to everyone?
Any comments?
You are bringing up a topic that I have been thinking about so much and have so much to say and question, that I can hardly start. Seriously.
Let me throw in a few provocative questions.
One is, where does our 'sense of the sacred' come from? Does our sense of the sacred come from something really sacred at all? Was it not just something that was slapped in there by natural selection, a set of emotional-cognitive tendencies that are no more guaranteed to produce pure, good, accurate or wise results than any other proclivity of the mind?
To elaborate a little, my view is that our dispositions towards the sense of the sacred, and piety, which I call together, 'sacropiety', is an emotional-cognitive disposition-set that is not sacred at all. There is nothing holy about it. Sacropietic dispositions give us a sense of the holy, of 'The Light', but they are just as capable of leading us in the wrong path as are, say, sexual dispositions.
We lose sight of that so easily.
And I believe they were put there by natural selection. And because natural selection is a great improviser and re-user (just look at all the insect uses for wings and legs) certain aspects of sacropiety are in fact just elaborations or modifications of other dispositions. In particular, sacropietic dispositions are often arising out of modification of, essentially, neural machinery for relating to parents or tribal elders. And the dispositions for relating to 'god' is a sort of modification of dispositions for relating to parent, and tribal authorities or chiefs.
Then there is the whole business of Yoga and enlighenment. In my more recent view, enlightenment is nothing more than a healing and refining process. And partly because we are full of sacropietic traumas, or sacropietic development that was stunted, the healing of these leads to sacropietic arousal and that gets all bound up with Yoga in the cultures.
But will enlightenment make you infallible, or put you in touch with an infallible god? No, I think that is a fundamental and common illusion arising from activation of the sacropietic system.
Well, enough for now. I've just spewed out some thoughts there as stimulated by your question. If you had any response comments, I'd be happy to hear them.
-David
|
Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 27 2005 5:44:18 PM |
 |
|
|
sheep dog
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 5:51:47 PM
|
Namaste,
If someone could give you the plain truth you would already have it. The truth cannot be spoken, words are only pointers. The demarcation between yoga and religious traditions can be somewhat murky. The non dual schools of thought in both vedanta and shaivism say that essentially you are That. In effect no thing is not god. Symbols are often used because it gives the mind something to latch on to.
larry
_/\_ |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 10:59:26 PM
|
I guess one can only speculate on where our sense of the sacred comes from but it must be there, at least in part, to eventually fuel our quest to know more than our sensory experiences on this earth.
I agree "sacropeity" as you term it, is a lot like any other pursuit in that if it is conditional it will eventually lead to suffering. I do wonder though if it can safely be confirmed that human being's worship of spirits or deities were a natural selection off-shoot of the innate urges to look externally to a parent or tribal leader for their security? They may have been one and the same urge and present silutaneously. It could simply stem from an innate insecurity from childhood or elsewhere to look externally for our protection and well being instead of being self-reliant. It's truly hard for me to identify with this as I don't personally seem to have much or any feeling of worship or "sacropeity" in myself.
These days, I preface this way as my theories constantly modify, I am starting to feel that absolute self-fulfillment comes from not wanting or needing anything in return for our actions. In other words, getting rid in ourselves of our insecure needs and our delusional belief that if we get something, i.e. a shiny object, a person's approval, affection or love, then we are somehow "good", "right" or "better than another" or whatever it is we are looking for. I feel that if you love because you want to not because you want or need to be loved back or you give because you enjoy giving not because you want something in return only then can you be fulfilled. I know people will object to this term but in a sense, being ultimately selfish in this regard and fulfilled with our gives and takes without any expectation of return helps make us truly happy.
It would definitely be comforting  to feel that we could look to someone like an infallible guru or God for absolute certainty that we are doing the right thing or going in the right direction etc. It might be that this is how it is when we die or when we're one with God/ the universe anyway and that the uncertainty of earthly existence is what makes things interesting and fun. Maybe pain, suffering etc. is the great gift to make us appreciate being immortal perfect beings?
Anthem11
|
Edited by - Anthem on Jul 29 2005 09:39:40 AM |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 11:03:22 PM
|
Larry, nice concise posting. Thanks! Hope to see you posting more.
quote:
Originally posted by sheep dog
Namaste,
If someone could give you the plain truth you would already have it. The truth cannot be spoken, words are only pointers. The demarcation between yoga and religious traditions can be somewhat murky. The non dual schools of thought in both vedanta and shaivism say that essentially you are That. In effect no thing is not god. Symbols are often used because it gives the mind something to latch on to.
larry
_/\_
|
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 9:07:11 PM
|
I used to have a problem with worship and sacred perceptions because I was so sick of all the hypocrisy in western religions, and I figured if I was all powerful I certainly wouldn't want people worshiping me, and if God is in everything, how can an individual thing be more important than another?
But now I know there are a couple reasons for it. The social reason for things being sacred is that unevolved people have no respect, and tend to trash things that are important to others. So if you raise them with a sense of sacredness for nature and things other people care about, they treat others better.
The other reason is spiritual. God doesn't need to be worshipped, but for an individual to realize there is a power outside himself (outside his ego) is one of the biggest first steps you can make spiritually.
Also the concept of God as being a big, powerful force for good can be a lifesaver in times of mental unbalance. This unbalance could be from chakra unbalance, personal tragedy, illness, or other reasons.
I experienced such incredible fear one time when I was into "sorcery", that I knew evil was outside my window. I felt the ground shake and looked out the window and what had shaken the ground was an eight foot high being, evil incarnate with some sort of egyptian features and a black robe and I felt it was pure evil.
I had recently learned that when you become afraid, you have about one second to stop it, or you'll lose control to the fear. We had been jumping off cliffs into the water on vacation, and if you stood at the top of the cliif and look at the water for more than a second before jumping, you couldn't do it. You had to decide to jump before you reached the top, then do it before fear took over.
Anyway, back to the beast in my window, It took all my strength to take advantage of that second and I "saw" the wheel that contained all the words describing the beast (huge, evil, powerful,etc) and used my will to throw that ring of words away from me. I almost didn't do it in time. But the beast disappeared at that moment.
i looked out again and it was gone. I felt I could have died if I had given in to the fear.
My point is that people can feel that much fear and not know how to throw it away as I did. So they need something like God to hold on to and invoke his name to save them. It's an easy concept to learn for anyone.
I am an SRF member, and don't really like all the devotion recommended by Yogananda. I think he had a couple reasons for it, besides devotion being a path in itself. One, It can be a method of stirring up your bhakti, and the more desire for the goal, the better. Two, and this is just speculation on my part, I think people had a fear of what might happen to students if they didn't have a guru watching them as they practice kriyas. It had always been traditional to have a personal guru who could save you if you got unbalanced chakras and got out of control. Even mahasaya had warned not to make an organization out of kriya practice where people wouldn't have a personal guru. But Yogananda did it anyway, and my suspicion is that they weren't really sure at the time why people's chakra's would get unbalanced, and knowing that devotion is a safe path, they threw a lot of that in as a protection.
Etherfish |
|
|
|
mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2006 : 1:17:05 PM
|
Dear Anthem After we reach the college level of education we may feel that what is taught in schools are sub standard. Doesnt mean they are irrelevent. people are at different levels of evolution some need symbols. isnt it?
mystiq |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2006 : 5:49:48 PM
|
| Agreed |
|
|
|
riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2006 : 6:22:20 PM
|
Hi,
Some nice replies here on this one.
There is a saying in India, ' my father is me, I am my father 'which I believe relates to God and that God is within you.But don't confuse religion with spirituality. One does not need to be a member of a controlled environment(religion) to worship God.Even all the Hindu God's are still regarded as individual facets of the same diamond which is the same God as any other religion.
Quote
'I feel that if you love because you want to not because you want or need to be loved back or you give because you enjoy giving not because you want something in return only then can you be fulfilled.'
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.This desire to love and help others increases as one purifies further as also does the ego decrease. If one makes a conscious effort it happens quicker.My guru has taught me to try for every waking moment 'do not harbour ill thoughts,actions or words for any others'. Try that each day and see how many times you fail as this is probably the most difficult thing I have ever tried.By taking this action, trying to dissolve the ego and help others, you increase the pace of travelling the path. It's not easy but I have found does become easier as you travel further. Simply meditating etc is not enough on it's own and probably doesn't answer the questions concerning God either.Very often I wait 24 hrs before answering a 'difficult' mail I may have received.Invariably my reply changes several times in this period and hopefully there is no knee jerk reaction when I answer and the person recieving doesn't take me for the idiot they may have if I had replied immediately.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Yoga and the truth
