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knowingunknown
USA
23 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 13 2008 : 9:06:48 PM
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ananda: hello my friend, i'm sorry but why can't we do both at the same time.
Can't do both of what? Search and be quiet/still? Have you ever heard a master that said Truth yelled out at him/her? That it had a million things to say? That It was loud and full of noise? Of course not. Truth IS Silence. The endless chatter lies in the mind. Where does the mind spring from? Pure Still Silence Itself. Do you See?
ananda: live normaly and act with other people normaly while being within or even better yet bringing what's within to the outside to make life better.
What endless excuses the ego/mind will come up with to keep its constructed universe in place. Dear one, what is the world, but a reflection of the True Self. "Who" is acting 'normally' with "whom"? When you look out into the world with the eyes, you see a multitude of form. When you look through the Heart, you see the Same Sweet Self of ALL. Rest in the Heart and allow life to flow from Here.
ananda: after all isn't this what's yoga all about, union between our inner and outer nature.
What nonsense! Inner and outer nature? Mind games; pure mind games. You have no inner and outer. What you Truly Are is not even of This world. There is no inside, outside or in between. Lay down all your false ideas as they keep you chasing an imaginary tail. There is no "ME" in Realization. There is no "ME" to have an innner or an outer.
ananda: plus why not argue, this might shed some light on the teachings of this guru or that.
It is Understood that it is hard to discern Truth from not truth when walking along the Way. However, to discuss which Guru or Teacher is or is not Enlightened while still caught up wihtin this dream character in a dream world is destined for failure. One is better to find a Teacher that sings to the Heart and pushes the ego away from its comfort zones. And, when the student is Ready the Teacher will come. The Self of the Heart knows when the Self of the world will be Accepted and Surrendered in to; revealing to the seeker they are One and the Same. But constant discussions get one nowhere, but further entrenched in mind.
ananda: speaking for myself, i just practice and let go.
If this where so, we would not be meeting on a discussion chat list where one appears to post, and post frequently. Be honest. Nothing is hidden, sweet friend.
It is hoped one can hear what is being said. Even if only one here were to see the futility of constant jabbering, this visit would have been worth more than millions and millions of universes.
Blessings.
quote:
Originally posted by knowingunknown
"I would like to ask if krisnamurti was enlightened?
it seems that he says a whole lot of the right thing's but his attitude appears to leave a lot to be desired! There doesn't seem to be the out pouring of love, bliss and compassion that maybe you would expect, then again maybe that is just my ignorance of enlightenment."
You mistake the personality of a man for the Absolute Truth; as if a man can become God. Truth IS; the personality is nothing other than conditioning of any given character at any given time.
Dreams within dreams, these discussions are.
Wake UP!
Discussing who is and who is not Awake is silly nonsense not likely to get one far, as the one judging has NO FOUNDATION on which to judge.
Let go of your empty ideas, concepts and disjointed theories... they have NO Basis.
Rather than waste all this time talking about what can't be talked about, pointing what can't be Pointed to, thinking about what is BEYOND thought and looking for a "who" in Enlightenment ... STOP. Go within.
Be Quiet.
Go within.
Blessings.
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Edited by - knowingunknown on Nov 13 2008 9:53:18 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2008 : 01:30:42 AM
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hello again my friend  ,
i understand where you come from, trust me i had my share in delving in non duality.
1st let's agree on the fact that we disagree about what yoga really is since you consider what i am saying as nonsense.
2nd what you are experiencing comes naturally when one is engaged in advanced yoga practices.
3rd not all people do relate to non duality the way you do, and this is why they need yogic practices to realize what you already realized to quieten their minds let's say.
4th i know that i am that and which is right and which is wrong but others don't and find it hard to understand that fact the way you do so should i force my way of thinking and a certain teacher's way of thinking on them (of course not).
5th if this is all an illusion to you then why are you even proving a point, why are you discussing with me just go and live in a cave and be and let others be if someone is ready for your kind of teachings as you say he'll follow you to that cave and there you can both be happily ever after.
6th the non duality way is not for everyone, it's for those who are near the enlightenment stage and for the rest of us it's non relational and doesn't bring effective means for achieving enlightenment (if i am to just be and do not experience anything near what i am experiencing by the practice of yoga so which way am i to choose).
so keep on choosing the neti neti way and i'll chose the neti and yeay way, what a divine paradox yeay!
and i speak from my own personal experience when i say that the practice of advanced yoga practices has taken me far away toward the realization of the truth then any other advaitan teaching had.
even ramana maharshi speaks about the use of mantras and yogic practices for those who cannot quieten their minds just by self enquiry.
and yes i do post regularly cz it helps me a lot along the path to take the advice of others.
so you just relax and be and i'll work my ... off to be (wouldn't want it any other way, it's a lot of fun )
and by letting go this means i just practice and let the results manifest themselves and as all yogis notice by time; the purification process becomes automatic by itself (i mean i am experiencing that right now).
and who knows maybe in my next life (if there is one), i'll be born like you saying the same stuff to people on my level and saying that this and that are nonsense.
all the best mr. or ms. to be or not to be  ,
Ananda
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knowingunknown
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2008 : 03:11:44 AM
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ananda: hello again my friend ,
wonderful evening.
ananda: i understand where you come from, trust me i had my share in delving in non duality.
it isn't about "delving into non duality". The Non Duality spoken from isn't a mindset, a philosophy or a teaching that one picks up, sorts through and then sets down. Granted, most speaking of Non Duality are doing so from within the framework of duality. What is Shared is from Direct Experience, not a great book that was read or parroting of teachings. There are only so many ways to even remotely attempt to Point towards This, Non Duality being the closest that words can come.
ananda: 1st let's agree on the fact that we disagree about what yoga really is since you consider what i am saying as nonsense.
Dear one, yoga isn't the issue. The True Essence of yoga has nothing to do with a body, though this is where one begins. Yoga, as with any and all practices, is an Invitation to step beyond the world's pull and dive deeper within to the True Heart of the matter. Nothing more, nothing less.
ananda: 2nd what you are experiencing comes naturally when one is engaged in advanced yoga practices.
Have never engaged in "advanced yoga practices". Have never even attempted a yogic pose. Without a single "panting dog pose" (sorry, really don't know any of the yoga terminology), Understanding made Iself Known.
ananda: 3rd not all people do relate to non duality the way you do, and this is why they need yogic practices to realize what you already realized to quieten their minds let's say.
Dear friend, this body here never did such a thing. Yet, Truth is Known. So, yoga isn't the Answer, but a path of many paths that lead to Here.
ananda: 4th i know that i am that and which is right and which is wrong but others don't and find it hard to understand that fact the way you do so should i force my way of thinking and a certain teacher's way of thinking on them (of course not).
There is no one here to even consider trying to force "a way of thinking" onto another. This isn't about thinking, but Redirecting. The Invitation is to go beyond the "thinking" itself. Behind opinions, beliefs, ideas, imaginations, right or wrong, good or bad, up or down there is Empty Space. If one can even hear a sliver of this Truth, then perhaps the constant pull to get caught up in the mind will be let go of.
Ananda: 5th if this is all an illusion to you then why are you even proving a point,
There is no point to prove. This is the illusion: believing there is some-thing to attain, some bright idea or insight to get and some-one who cares.
Ananda: why are you discussing with me just go and live in a cave and be and let others be if someone is ready for your kind of teachings as you say he'll follow you to that cave and there you can both be happily ever after.
Who is to say this isn't the cave and Life isn't inviting you to step in? With that said, am not a Teacher. Just happened by this way, the flow of life brought this one here, "discussion" is being engaged in and then, who knows, perhaps there will be another cave to visit for a time. No need to take any of it personally; as a matter of fact, please don't. Take the desire to care one way or another what this one says away, even if for just a few moments, and look deeply at what is being Shared. That is all.
Ananda: 6th the non duality way is not for everyone, it's for those who are near the enlightenment stage and for the rest of us it's non relational and doesn't bring effective means for achieving enlightenment
Total Agreement. But there appears to be a lot of non-duality discussions taking place here. So... best to have some Clarity rather than dead ends.
Ananda: (if i am to just be and do not experience anything near what i am experiencing by the practice of yoga so which way am i to choose).
Yoga is not the End, but a doorway through. Understand this. Please. Deeply. If it brings quieting of mind, non-attachment and Clarity, then by all means, continue forward. Advice (take it or leave it... your Choice.) is to not get caught up within phenomena as it is transient and falls within duality (some-thing happening to a some-one), leave the mindsets and ideologies to dissolve away and step away from believing that you are "someone" doing "something" to get "somewhere", as this just keeps mind engaged and a sense of a separate self active.
Ananda: so keep on choosing the neti neti way and i'll chose the neti and yeay way, what a divine paradox yeay!
There is no longer a choice present... really there never was. There is Just This and... nothing can be said. There are many paths that Lead to the One Gate.
Ananda: and i speak from my own personal experience when i say that the practice of advanced yoga practices has taken me far away toward the realization of the truth then any other advaitan teaching had.
All paths divulge and dissolve into an unrecognizable heap at the End. Then, Non Duality IS... but never as a philosophy... as Reality.
Ananda: even ramana maharshi speaks about the use of mantras and yogic practices for those who cannot quieten their minds just by self enquiry.
Of course. Look, this one never said to stop yoga, but that the belief in an "inner and outer" was wrong. Don't get caught up in all the various ecelectic Teachings. Just quiet the mind and allow Stillness to Speak.
Ananda: and yes i do post regularly cz it helps me a lot along the path to take the advice of others.
Ok.
Ananda: so you just relax and be and i'll work my ... off to be (wouldn't want it any other way, it's a lot of fun)
Am glad you've got a sense of humor. Laughter goes a long way. Keep it light... very light. Never take your"self" too seriously.
Actually, that's the best advice that can be given. Don't take it all so seriously. Enjoy the Bounty of Life. Truly Enjoy It.
Ananda: and by letting go this means i just practice and let the results manifest themselves and as all yogis notice by time; the purification process becomes automatic by itself (i mean i am experiencing that right now).
This is Understood.
Ananda: and who knows maybe in my next life (if there is one), i'll be born like you saying the same stuff to people on my level and saying that this and that are nonsense.
Why even "think" about a next life. A next life for "whom"? Not this, not that. Not two, not two. ;)
Ananda: all the best mr. or ms. to be or not to be ,
Blessings on your journey.
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Edited by - knowingunknown on Nov 14 2008 04:16:20 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2008 : 03:40:12 AM
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 thk you my friend, that's a very beautiful post and again i can relate to what you're saying a lot.
the simple fact is that yoga works more and is more real for me, so to each his own sailing boat.
all the best on your path, you are a kind soul.
Ananda
p.s.: check out the main lessons when you have the time, you might find some interesting stuff down there.
that way you can have a better view on what i've been saying concerning the mixture of both paths, or you can consider it as just food for thought if you like and if you don't then that's okay there's no need to as you say.
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2008 : 08:39:59 AM
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| I experienced the above as an exchange of listening, and listening is love. |
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knowingunknown
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2008 : 3:10:57 PM
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| Life is nothing other than Love loving Love. |
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windh2o
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 3:21:46 PM
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JK was a profound influence in my life in my mid twenties after recovering from a bout of mental illness. By luck my first wife's cousin was his grand nephew which gave me resources to JK that other people interested in his teachings would not have. It would seem to me he had a fear of being "deified" as a "guru" while trying to convey teachings that are quite consistent with Yogani's thought: "well, you must surrender to something...".
JK's nephew was full of personal recollections of this thinker and somehow manages to incorporate JK's teachings despite being a householder (former Headmaster at Rishi Valley School in India and at present "on fire" teaching kids history at a private school in Avon, Connecticut).
What struck me most in JK's recorded talks and in my conversations with his nephew - its often overlooked that JK was a human being first - a point brought out in a review (India Today: ca 1989) of one of the many biographies available on JK - a point JK may have overlooked himself.
In any case, my own experience visiting Rishi Valley School was positive despite the mosquitoes - and inability to smoke cigarettes on campus. I am considering sending my kids there when they become school age. |
Edited by - windh2o on Feb 15 2009 3:28:33 PM |
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windh2o
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 7:50:22 PM
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"Choiceless" Awareness: Can anyone give their thought on this term that runs throughout JK's books and talks?
It's a well known that awareness is comparable to our true, ultimate state of being - but the term "choiceless" always vexed me. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2009 : 01:38:32 AM
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Hi WindH2o
It simply means that when you are aware, and objects arise in your awareness, you don't favor one over another.
Christi |
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windh2o
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2009 : 01:42:23 AM
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Thanks Christi...but is that really possible outside a meditative state?
But I don't disagree...thanks again... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2009 : 02:38:29 AM
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Hi WindH2o
Gradually the experience during meditation begins to overflow into the rest of life. The boundaries start to become less obvious. Samadhi overflows into sahaja samadhi, which is the state that Krishnamurti lived in continuously.
Christi
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2009 : 04:46:41 AM
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Hi windh2o
quote:
"Choiceless" Awareness: Can anyone give their thought on this term that runs throughout JK's books and talks?
Christi said:
quote:
It simply means that when you are aware, and objects arise in your awareness, you don't favor one over another.
Yes.....there is no self-interest in anything. What is witnessed belongs to noone....it simply rises undisturbed. And this includes the feeling of a "me". The feeling of "I" limited to the body is also allowed and therefore seen and therfore detached from.
It is like your name.....windh2o.....in order for wind and water to blow and flow.....there must be space. Yet...the space....is like this screen......it is not "interested" in what flows and blows....it just is the empty opening that allows for all the rest. |
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windh2o
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2009 : 09:01:56 AM
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Hi Christi
I'm not convinced that JK was living in a "sahaja samhadhi" -- if you had talked to him personally at Brockwood Park in the UK and gotten over his non-committal English / (re-found) Andhra Telugu Brahmin accent, you'll find a person who's probably suffering "delayed stress disorder" after a youth with Leadbeater and Co.
Trust Me, I'm on the inside on this.
Kindest Regards
Anil CS Rao |
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windh2o
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2009 : 09:19:23 AM
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Hi Katrine
"What is" : ultimate reality irrespective of any "spiritual" basis.
If awareness is not interested:
Shankaracharya states (at the end of his life/tenure) that ultimate reality is purely, in the end, a function of sensory stimuli (from Will Durant's Our Oriental Heritage).
Think on this term when you're not in a state of samhadhi.
Sincerely
Anil CS Rao |
Edited by - windh2o on Feb 18 2009 09:31:49 AM |
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windh2o
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2009 : 09:28:53 AM
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Katrine
No matter what you say or do - you, in fact will have your (attractive) physical body until it decides to retire - just ask your hairdresser next time you see her.
Anil |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2009 : 09:47:46 AM
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Hi windh2o
quote:
If awareness is not interested:
Shankaracharya states that ultimate reality is purely, in the end, a function of sensory stimuli (from Will Durant's Our Oriental Heritage).
Would you mind explaining....that would be great..thank you in advance
When saying "not interested"......it is because, when witnessing that everything happens of itself, it is obvious that this has always been so...regardless of what thoughts there might be.....including the mental motion of rejecting and approving what is taking place....
"Not interested".....is like seeing everything without judgement...there is no particular interest....just a very quiet enjoying....which feels like loving....
Are you saying that ultimate reality is dependant on sensory stimuli?
Thank you Anil
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2009 : 09:50:35 AM
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Hi Anil
quote:
No matter what you say or do - you, in fact will have your (attractive) physical body until it decides to retire - just ask your hairdresser next time you see her.
I will ask - it's a he
Yes....the body will stay until the Shine retires it |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2009 : 10:39:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Once an iceberg melts, there's nowhere to pin the medal.
Jim, that is absolutely brilliant! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2009 : 09:07:29 AM
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Hi Anil,
quote:
Hi Christi
I'm not convinced that JK was living in a "sahaja samhadhi" -- if you had talked to him personally at Brockwood Park in the UK and gotten over his non-committal English / (re-found) Andhra Telugu Brahmin accent, you'll find a person who's probably suffering "delayed stress disorder" after a youth with Leadbeater and Co.
Trust Me, I'm on the inside on this.
Many people experienced other things in Krishnamurti's prsence. To each his own.
Christi |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2009 : 3:31:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by UniversalMind
Greetings everyone,
I would like to ask if krisnamurti was enlightened?
it seems that he says a whole lot of the right thing's but his attitude
appears to leave a lot to be desired! There doesn't seem to be the out pouring of love, bliss and compassion that maybe you would expect, then again maybe that is just my ignorance of enlightenment. I have read that some Buddhists classed him as enlightened, i am confused! Any ideas?
In some traditions there is a distinction between enlightenment and buddhahood. The difference is in the accomplishment of super-normal powers (siddhis). He may have had some realization. As you detected, he should have followed that with deep sense of compassion. Perhaps he did.
Enlightenment is not necessarily characterized by bliss, but compassion is a hallmark. Enlightenment is the cessation of ignorance and attachment. Ultimate reality is indescribable. It is something like the non-dual awareness Christi describes. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2009 : 5:10:14 PM
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Christi said:
Many people experienced other things in Krishnamurti's prsence. To each his own.
No doubt about that. But that is about what those people experienced, not about whether Krishnamurti was in Sahaj Samadhi or not.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2009 : 6:28:13 PM
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Yes; our inner guru will guide us to the lessons we need to learn. They can be learned from friendly famous people or from disgusting nobodies just as well.
If a thousand people learn the same lesson from one man, it doesn't mean a thousand more should listen to that man and expect great things.
Silence empowers your inner guru. May we all learn something from a newborn baby, a plant, an animal, or a spirit. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 19 2009 6:32:40 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2009 : 03:23:23 AM
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Hi David,
quote:
Christi said:
Many people experienced other things in Krishnamurti's prsence. To each his own.
No doubt about that. But that is about what those people experienced, not about whether Krishnamurti was in Sahaj Samadhi or not.
You are right, it doesn’t tell us anything about sahaja samadhi, or about the inner state of the consciousness of Krishnamurti.
Different people experience different things at different times, and much of it is conditioned by their own state of consciousness. The thing about samadhi is that it is an inner condition, and is not necessarily reflected in the superficial personality (or the accent ).
Krishnamurti spent a great deal of time describing what it is like to be living in samadhi. He did not use the word samadhi, as he used very few Sanskrit words. He used the English word meditation variously as a translation of both dhyana and samadhi. But as Yogani said in another thread, what do such descriptions mean to someone who has not experienced the condition? At best they can be inspiring, at worse they can only serve to confuse. This is why I said above, let us continue to practice Yoga and see how our understanding of Krishnamurti changes over time as our own inner condition changes. Then, as our own inner state becomes more and more illuminated from within, the things that Krishnamurti said can have some meaning and purpose for us, and help us on our own inner journey.
Until then, it is very difficult to relate to Krishnamurti’s teachings on meditation and self-inquiry in any meaningful way, let alone draw any conclusions about the state of his inner being.
Christi |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 4:20:23 PM
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Christi said:
Until then, it is very difficult to relate to Krishnamurti’s teachings on meditation and self-inquiry in any meaningful way, let alone draw any conclusions about the state of his inner being.
Maybe when that time comes, many other truths will have come out and you'll realize that windh2o was right Christi.
After the way he was brought up, Krishnamurti was lucky to have come out in any decent shape at all. He was, after all, at a very tender age, taken out of what would have been a normal life, and placed into something very strange.
Everything might have worked out a whole lot better for Krishnamurti if Leadbeater and Co. had just left that little Brahmin boy alone playing on the beach. He'd have probably gotten a way much better training on spiritual development (probably with the benefit of yoga in particular) from his native India than from a group of fin de siècle Victorians.
And Christi, if he had, something important might have happened that might affect the way you are thinking about him and talking about him and his teachings: you mightn't be talking now about Krishnamurti's teachings as something inaccessible, beyond us, that we won't be able to understand until we can evolve to understand; and those teachings mightn't be standing as if in a posture of opposition to yoga practice or Indian spiritual culture, but rather, like the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and other realizers of 20th-century India, they might be highly-regarded and well-understood teachings, folding beautifully into the spritual tradition into which he was born.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 23 2009 10:02:20 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 08:45:27 AM
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Hi David,
What a lot of editing of posts is going on! Very interesting.
quote:
And Christi, if he had, something important might have happened that might affect the way you are thinking about him and talking about him and his teachings: you mightn't be talking now about Krishnamurti's teachings as something inaccessible, beyond us, that we won't be able to understand until we can evolve to understand; and those teachings mightn't be standing as if in a posture of opposition to yoga practice or Indian spiritual culture, but rather, like the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and other realizers of 20th-century India, they might be highly-regarded and well-understood teachings, folding beautifully into the spritual tradition into which he was born.
Everyone can speculate on what might have been if things had been different. But why bother?
Krishnamurti's teachings fall pretty neatly into the yogic advaita vedanta tradition. Krishnamurti chose to teach in this tradition of yoga. It is an advanced stage of yoga, and we have to evolve in order to be able to appreciate it and benefit from it. It's like if you study medicine. It's a 6 year course. Nobody would expect to take the year 6 classes in year one, or year two... it just wouldn't make any sense. And when we are ready, Krishnamurti's teachings will be there for us to benefit from, and for that we should all be grateful, even if we cannot see it now.
Christi |
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Krisnamurti
