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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 07 2008 : 7:05:11 PM
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Greetings to all you yogis here.
I have some questions for you concerning my kundalini experience. I have had experiences of K before, falling in to 2 categories: spontaneous movement by itself and guided movement by the intent of the mind. I recently come across information about the Hamsa mantra technique using spinal breathing together with a mantra (SO breathing in, HUM breathing out). In experimenting with this I realized that the syllables could be used in “wrong” order, also that the use of the mantra is not needed to achieve the result. Only the movement or the intention of the mind together with the breath is enough. Also, when settled in to meditation, only the intention or tracing of the spine with the mind not even in sync with the breath produces the same effect.
Then I found the AYP site, a goldmine!
My experience is this: When doing the spinal breathing I move my intention from base chakra to third eye, breathing in. Then breathing out trace the energy down to the base. What happens immediately thereafter there is a tingling feeling in the lower part of my aura, almost like white noise (points of light flickering like the TV set on no station, together with a white noise) and then I feel the kundalini rise in the spine to the top. I follow the flow and direct it to the third eye.
Here are my questions:
1. This technique aims at raising the K. Now once the K is raised, then should one continue the technique in the presence of K, or just sit there and “admire” the result for some time before continuing? That is, once the K is raised should one interfere with the upward flow by exhaling and move energy down?
2. Earlier I have been attempting to guide my K by the intention of the mind, with some success. Now when doing spinal breath, and being somewhat dull, I can not sense that there is any difference in the feeling of the energies going up or down guided by the intention of the mind (prana and aprana) or K itself, except in the intensity and independence of K energy. Are these three kind of energies of one and the same “material”, and if not could my directing of these pranic energies be overshadowed by K energies so that the weak distinct feeling of different prana energies drowns in the presence of ever so small amount of K energies trailing along?
3. When doing spinal breath, after some time I experience that the K starts rising before I have had the chance to expire my breath completely tracing the energies down to the end of the spine. Should I then force my attention down all the way working against the flow of K rising, or just hop on the train midway?
4. As mentioned above, some of the time the attention of the mind alone without breath or out of sync with the breath will produce the same result. Is this then something worth continuing or will this be a slower route?
I am eagerly awaiting your feedback!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 07:13:26 AM
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Hi Lookatmynavel,
welcome to the forum.
quote:
1. This technique aims at raising the K. Now once the K is raised, then should one continue the technique in the presence of K, or just sit there and “admire” the result for some time before continuing? That is, once the K is raised should one interfere with the upward flow by exhaling and move energy down?
If you are doing AYP style spinal breathing then no, don't make any attempt to influence the energy movements. Just follow the simple procedure for tracing the spinal nerve between the root and the third eye. It is tempting to want to influence the energy in a particular way... if it is rising then you might think "great, it's rising, that's what I wanted", and then deliberately suspend the breath in order to influence that. This is kumbhaka which is another technique, and far more powerful than spinal breathing. It is covered too in the main lessons... just run a search on the word kumbhaka.
But spinal breathing isn't just about raising kundalini, it is about purifying the sushumna, and the whole body so that the awakening process can happen in a smooth and safe way. In order to do that it is important to be single pointed with the mind during the practice, so that you can go really deep into the nadi. Stopping and starting the process depending on what the energy is doing will divide the mind. Sometimes the breath will naturally suspend during spinal breathing, and that is fine.
quote:
2. Earlier I have been attempting to guide my K by the intention of the mind, with some success. Now when doing spinal breath, and being somewhat dull, I can not sense that there is any difference in the feeling of the energies going up or down guided by the intention of the mind (prana and aprana) or K itself, except in the intensity and independence of K energy. Are these three kind of energies of one and the same “material”, and if not could my directing of these pranic energies be overshadowed by K energies so that the weak distinct feeling of different prana energies drowns in the presence of ever so small amount of K energies trailing along?
I believe they are the same material, but like in a river there are different currents and eddies happening. When there is a strong flow down the center or a river, it can be harder to notice the smaller currents.
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3. When doing spinal breath, after some time I experience that the K starts rising before I have had the chance to expire my breath completely tracing the energies down to the end of the spine. Should I then force my attention down all the way working against the flow of K rising, or just hop on the train midway?
Some times things can happen that are so powerful that it is impossible to simply follow the procedure of the practice. Then you should simply watch what is happening until it calms down and you can go back to the procedure again. A powerful rising kundalini shakti could produce this effect, either during pranayama or during meditation.
quote:
4. As mentioned above, some of the time the attention of the mind alone without breath or out of sync with the breath will produce the same result. Is this then something worth continuing or will this be a slower route?
If you always work in synch with the breath then it sets up a habit pattern in the mind/body. Habit patterns are a big part of yoga, which is what all the repitition is about. We set up our body /mind to be in the habit of moving towards God. So if you change the way you work with the procedure, you may find it takes longer to build up an effective habit, and so it will take longer to go deep.
If you haven't done so yet, you may benefit from reading through all the main lessons, as some of your questions are answered there, and there is a lot of useful information about working with the kundalini energy in different ways.
Good luck,
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Jan 09 2008 05:43:01 AM |
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 08:48:13 AM
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Hello Cristi
I did my homework before posting, and have read about 65% of the main lessons. Now, to clarify the first question, with AYP style spinal breathing the following happens: I breath in – I breath out – kundalini rises. This happens every breath, I have no opportunity to trace the spinal nerve several times without this happening the first time. What about the next breath? Breathing normally without tracing for some time until the kundalini fades and then start again, or don’t care about the kundalini and press it down to the base?
I have not got into the kumbakha exercise yet, I figured I would take it step by step and pace myself. So I am not yet into the habit of holding my breath at all.
When K is raised I direct it to ajna, otherwise it will go more towards the crown. So I do attempt to influence the energy in a particular way. Should I not?
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 09:17:22 AM
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Lookatmynavelnow,
I love your screenname! Anyway...
Where your attention goes, energy follows; where energy goes, your attention follows. Increase the power of your attention by focusing your practices on deep meditation. Then you'll be able to focus solely on the area of the spine with the breath, and not be swayed by energy flows. You will CAUSE the energy flows.
Favor the practice over the effect. You should be in control of where you attention goes. The positive effects of the practice will come after practice time is done, so forget about them while you're doing spinal breathing.
Also, kundalini is not merely an energy that moves in your spine - it's a dormant storehouse of superconsciousness. Calling the energies "kundalini" is a misunderstanding. You'll know if kundalini has awakened, because your whole perspective will be blown to bits. |
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 11:29:00 AM
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quote:
Increase the power of your attention by focusing your practices on deep meditation.
I started meditating 35 years ago, and have been on the spiritual quest since then. Some 8-9 years ago I had a spontaneous increase in K activity
quote:
You should be in control of where you attention goes.
I am, and that’s why I can choose to work against the K flow or not. The question is, should I?
quote:
You'll know if kundalini has awakened, because your whole perspective will be blown to bits.
Been there… and going there!
Christi and Scott, I love you dearly but isn’t there someone like a German engineer on this forum that can give a straight technical answer to a plumbing question without being polite and nice? (grin)
Ooops.. no offense intended! (neither to you guys or the german folk)
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Edited by - Lookatmynavelnow on Jan 08 2008 12:29:09 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 1:47:36 PM
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Wow. I am offended, to be honest. Not that my answers didn't help you, but that you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to what I wrote. Or for that matter - to what Christi wrote, which was pretty much the same thing!
Here are your answers:
* Read the deep meditation articles on this website again, and again.
* Follow the practice instructions fully, having AYP deep meditation as your core practice.
* In spinal breathing, don't follow the flow of energy, but move your attention up and down the spine with the breath.
I don't see how it can get much simpler. If you didn't get your answers from this, then I will have to give up. Please let the ideas and words sit with you for a while...perhaps a long while. The answer is there, you just need to pay attention.
A few things...
1) Years of practice don't matter, quality of practice does. If you've been missing the mark for 35 years, then telling me that you've been an archer for 35 years isn't going to impress me, when I shoot constant bullseyes and I've only been doing it for like 7 years.
2) If you have "been there", and experienced an actual kundalini awakening...then why do you call the sensations of energies rising up in your spine, "kundalini"? They aren't kundalini.
3) You haven't yet "done your homework" if you've just skimmed over 65% of the main lessons. There are hidden things in there which become revealed as time passes, and as you advance in the practices. You need to keep reading them...even the very beginning ones. |
Edited by - Scott on Jan 08 2008 1:56:59 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 2:46:36 PM
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Hi Lookatmynavelnow, and welcome!
The way we do spinal breathing pranayama in AYP, it is not an exploration with energy/experience driven options we follow while doing it. It is a simple procedure that is done the same way every time, no matter what is happening experientially. As Scott and Christi mentioned, the procedure of the practice is in the lead, not the vagaries of the inner energies.
The exception would be if energy symptoms become excessive and uncomfortable, and then we would respond by cutting our daily practice time back temporarily until things stabilize.
There are some enhancements to spinal breathing available that can improve its effectiveness. These are discussed in the Spinal Breathing Pranayama book, and include full yogic breathing, opening the throat on inhalation and restricting it slightly on exhalation (ujjayi), gentle lifting of the eyes (sambhavi), and tracing cool and warm currents up and down respectively. It is not recommended to take all of these on at once -- only one at at time when drawn to do so, allowing stabilization time (weeks or months) in daily practice for each.
Kumbhaka (breath retention) is another matter, and should be approached carefully. In AYP, this is in conjunction with certain practices (yoni mudra and chin pump in particular). Regular spinal breathing is not recommended as a time to do deliberate kumbhaka. The breath may spontaneously suspend at times during spinal breathing and/or deep meditation (pretty common). We regard that the same as any other experience, and easily favor the practice we are doing when we realize we are off it. You are wise not to be rushing into kumbhaka, as you have plenty going on already. Time to stabilize. The key is to stabilize daily practices and inch them to more advanced versions over the long term, not chase or manipulate the energies over the short term. That is the approach here. You have been at this a long time too, so I am sure you know best what you need. A word to the wise is usually sufficient.
As for "raising kundalini," spinal breathing goes both ways. "Grounding" kundalini energies is at least as important as raising them, as many here can attest. Spinal breathing is up and down for good reasons. If the energy wants to go the other way, it doesn't matter -- we gently favor the procedure of our practice.
Btw, there have been extensive discussions in the forums on "grounding." There are many ways to go about it. If you are not thinking much about grounding at this point, you surely will be somewhere down the road.
The path to enlightenment is not primarily about "raising kundalini," which is an intermediate step in the process. Once ecstatic conductivity awakens, it is about balancing and blending, and that takes time of stable daily practice, including getting out in the world for integrating inner silence and the ecstatic energies in everyday living.
In the end, it is a marriage of abiding inner silence and ecstatic conductivity (kundalini) within us, leading to ongoing outpouring divine love and unity. Then we are called to do much more, because we can.
Don't know if that helps with your "plumbing question." It's about the best we can do, given the fact that we do not engage the energies extensively here during practices, and with good reasons. We focus on the main controls, and leave the rest going on inside to natural processes. It seems to be working well for a lot of folks here, and hangups in energy tangents are greatly reduced (I hope). Getting caught up in energy dramas is one of the greatest risks of delay on the path that intermediate and advanced practitioners face.
Another one is getting infatuated with "non-dual self-inquiry" to the exclusion of everything else. But that's another story. It is mentioned because I have finally finished the Self-Inquiry book. Hooray!
All the best on your path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 7:50:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Wow. I am offended, to be honest.
People on this earth often get offended, mostly for no good reason at all. I had a teacher once in school that used to treat questions as personal attacks. We students quickly learned not to learn. Neither did he evolve.
Hey Scott, relax and be happy. What possible harm could a newbie like me do to you? Ask a silly question? If you can’t make me understand, it’s probably not because of any lack in your great abilities, lengthy experiences or deep insights – it’s that rude newbie’s thick head that is lacking! You just have to lower yourself to my level, that’s all.
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 7:55:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi[/i]
Hi Lookatmynavel,
welcome to the forum.
Thank you Christie for your kind and sincere effort in answering my questions. |
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 7:58:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Lookatmynavelnow, and welcome!
Congrats on finishing your latest book, and thanks for the welcome!
It seams my presence here have created some emotional bruises. Let me try to show that I have been paying attention by summarizing the answers based on the teachings of you all so far:
1. This technique aims at raising the K. Now once the K is raised, then should one continue the technique in the presence of K, or just sit there and “admire” the result for some time before continuing? That is, once the K is raised should one interfere with the upward flow by exhaling and move energy down?
Answers:
C: Misunderstood the question.
S: Yes, lack of mind control if K rises by itself.
Y: Yes
2. Earlier I have been attempting to guide my K by the intention of the mind, with some success. Now when doing spinal breath, and being somewhat dull, I can not sense that there is any difference in the feeling of the energies going up or down guided by the intention of the mind (prana and aprana) or K itself, except in the intensity and independence of K energy. Are these three kind of energies of one and the same “material”, and if not could my directing of these pranic energies be overshadowed by K energies so that the weak distinct feeling of different prana energies drowns in the presence of ever so small amount of K energies trailing along?
Answers:
C: Probably the same.
S: None of this is Kundalini energy.
Y: The same (?)
3. When doing spinal breath, after some time I experience that the K starts rising before I have had the chance to expire my breath completely tracing the energies down to the end of the spine. Should I then force my attention down all the way working against the flow of K rising, or just hop on the train midway?
Answers:
C: Force it down if you can.
S: Inability to control energy is due to lack of power of attention.
Y: Favour the procedure of the practice (unspecific answer).
4. As mentioned above, some of the time the attention of the mind alone without breath or out of sync with the breath will produce the same result. Is this then something worth continuing or will this be a slower route?
Answers:
C: Always work in synch with the breath.
S: No answer.
Y: No answer.
I guess the “non-dual self-inquiry”-thing might in my case mean “stop asking stupid questions about yourself, just read the damn bible” (Boy, I sure hope your ego isn’t easily offended! That is, if you still got one…)
I still have some questions about the practice and my experiences. May I ask them?
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 12:26:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow
I still have some questions about the practice and my experiences. May I ask them?
Hi LAMNN:
Sure, the more kicking of the tires the better. But you might try asking them one or two at a time. They will receive more focused attention that way. It's up to you.
One point I can add that might help with some of your in-between, directional and/or increasing/decreasing energy questions is that if there are blockages or energies going hither and yon, making smooth travel up and down the spinal nerve challenging, then we can just skip through to the pole we are heading for in spinal breathing as necessary on inhalation and exhalation. In doing that we will always end up at the brow at the end of inhalation and at the root at the end of exhalation, no matter what. That bypasses the in-between "what if's" that may come up and enables us to conduct complete spinal breathing cycles for our full session while clearing out obstructions in-between at the same time, without getting stuck or taking a ride with the energy in some other direction. Over time, the whole thing becomes much smoother, and not about any particular energy event at all. It never was.
Many people have issues in spinal breathing in the early stages with getting stuck at some level in the spinal nerve or having the energy going off this way or that way. With time in practice, the symptoms clear up and the full spinal nerve becomes accessible, ecstatic, and expansive. We want to stay with the practice that is the cause the purification and opening in the entire spinal nerve. The energy sensations are only temporary side effects -- the friction of energy passing through the yet to be fully purified neurobiology.
Recognizing that it is not about the energy (even as we are stimulating it) and proceeding accordingly is how self-inquiry enters into the conduct of our practice. We make choices in every practice session to follow the procedure, or not, whatever it may be we have committed ourselves to practice. If we do not consistently follow the procedure we have chosen, we are lost. How consistently we choose over the long term makes all the difference. The choices are little ones made daily, which add up to large changes over time.
As you no doubt know, the path of yoga is like building a mountain day by day with a teaspoon, or maybe with a shovel if the practices are highly effective. All the fireworks have little to do with what is being built underneath. This is why developing consistent habits in effective practices is so important.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 06:21:35 AM
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Hi Lookatmynavel,
quote:
Thank you Christie for your kind and sincere effort in answering my questions.
Your welcome
quote:
LAMNN wrote:
1. This technique aims at raising the K. Now once the K is raised, then should one continue the technique in the presence of K, or just sit there and “admire” the result for some time before continuing? That is, once the K is raised should one interfere with the upward flow by exhaling and move energy down?
Answers:
C: Misunderstood the question.
S: Yes, lack of mind control if K rises by itself.
Y: Yes
I am sorry I misunderstood your question. I thought when you said "simply hang out" you meant, remain in a state with breath suspended (without exhaling) deliberately. I can see now that you meant just breath normally for a while whilst letting the kundalini energy do it's (upward) thing.
If you don't mind me being so bold I think you may have some confusion about the way in which the kundalini energy works. It is not the case that when we breath in and trace the spine upward, kundalini rises, and when we breath out and trace the spine downwards, it falls. This may happen, or it may not. It is quite possible to have kundalini rising continuously whilst we breath in and out tracing the spine. It is also quite possible to have it falling continuously in the same way. I think this could be the cause of some of your confusion.
quote:
3. When doing spinal breath, after some time I experience that the K starts rising before I have had the chance to expire my breath completely tracing the energies down to the end of the spine. Should I then force my attention down all the way working against the flow of K rising, or just hop on the train midway?
Answers:
C: Force it down if you can.
S: Inability to control energy is due to lack of power of attention.
Y: Favour the procedure of the practice (unspecific answer).
I didn't say that at all. What I did say was to follow the procedure of the spinal breathing practice unless the experience is so powerful that you cannot. If that is the case, then be aware of what is happening (the experience) until you can go back to the procedure.
quote:
When K is raised I direct it to ajna, otherwise it will go more towards the crown. So I do attempt to influence the energy in a particular way. Should I not?
This depends on your energy state, and particularily the state of your crown chakra. If you find that you are experiencing symptoms of energy overload caused by the kundalini then it could be wise to try and redirect the energy to the ajna chakra. You can do this either with intent, or by using sambavi mudra.
Symptoms of energy imbalance at the crown include: headaches, techiness, irritability, anger, a spaced out feeling. These are early warning signs. If these come then it could be wise not only to redirect the energy towards the ajna, but to self-pace all the spiritual practices.
If there are no signs of energy imbalances then you could simply let the kundalini energy rise up and out of the crown chakra during spinal breathing and meditation (and during normal life). You're in the driving seat. If you have not yet read lessons 199 and 287 on crown strategy then you may find them useful.
quote:
I guess the “non-dual self-inquiry”-thing might in my case mean “stop asking stupid questions about yourself, just read the damn bible” (Boy, I sure hope your ego isn’t easily offended! That is, if you still got one…)
These are not stupid questions at all! Quite the contrary, I think they are questions that come up for every one of us at some time. Ask away.
Christi
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Four q lifting energy in spine
