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kadak
79 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 1:42:59 PM
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Hi everyone, I have a question about the chakras's location.
When I began serious practice, I didn't know for sure where the chakra centers were, so I searched everywhere during hundreds of hours, and finally found the spinal cord. So I worked more than a thousand hours on it, but then, I began to doubt. There were strong sensations (heat and bliss) in it, but it seemed to me that the bliss was in fact coming from the center of the body. That the points in the spinal cord were only trigger point for the real centers of the chakras which would be unreachable without it. So I began to investigate the line going straight from sahasara to muladara. And then I found some teaching of Amma (the indian Saint), saying that all the treatises saying that the centers are in the spine are false. And that the real centers are on the straight line I was just investigating. Since then, I have to say that my progression is much faster.
Any experience or idea about this ? It seems to me that yoga teachers are not wrong, but pinpoint the spinal cord because chakras are unreachable at the beginning, but once they're awakened, it is better to go directly to them. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 4:12:47 PM
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From my experience, I've discovered the process of unfoldment is the act of discriminating between the gross levels of bodily experience, to the more subtle forms, which ultimately lead to the unveiling of what was already there in the first place.
Attempting to pinpoint a chakra area by another person's experience may or may not be a useful tool in determining location and may be a poor indicator of personal spiritual enfoldment, on the path of Self realization and can lead to discouragement, due to the fact that the same chakra experienced may be different dependent upon individual perception.
One person may state that their heart center (located within the chest) if fully opened, because they feel intense feelings of bliss, while another may state that the same chakra is open, but is located on the back(behind the heart), within the sympathetic nerve area, although the person experiences love, which is not attached to this location or even to the body.
It's not that the chakra centers are constantly changing, but that the manner of fully discriminating between a gross bodily feeling has naturally allowed the individual to move on to a more refined experience, since the individual no longer attaches to the gross form of expression and so the mind seeks out a subtler experience - and at the same time moves closer to the Source. In other words, we learn to separate from a thought, emotion, experience to realize that I AM not that, until the subtle experience is no longer necessary and the Self realizes that I AM.
Jim and His Karma: quote:
One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious....This procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not very popular."
Carl Jung
I had to borrow Jim's quote above (thanks, Jim:  )
That's why the unpopular route, that Carl is speaking about, of consciously dropping down, to the muladhara, (Yoga Nidra) and experiencing the gross form of vibration (samskaras) isn't such a popular one, although the individual thinks that they need to reexperience a traumatic event, to heal, and, in brief, the mind relents and detaches from the experience.
Anyway, I'm going to list a site that may be useful to you, since, dependent on my bhatki, at the time, I need the encouragement also and haven't fully learned to detach from such things  :
http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/chakras.htm
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Dec 31 2007 4:54:40 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 5:13:18 PM
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quote:
One person may state that their heart center (located within the chest) if fully opened, because they feel intense feelings of bliss, while another may state that the same chakra is open, but is located on the back(behind the heart), within the sympathetic nerve area, although the person experiences love, which is not attached to this location or even to the body.
Good example. In the tibetan system, one cannot say his heart chakra is fully opened until he realized the illusory body. And this chakra can be fully opened only if it is located very precisely, because all the winds have to dissolve within it to produce clear light of death. And they will never do this by chance.
Anyway, thanks for the site. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 5:33:45 PM
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kadak: quote:
Good example. In the tibetan system, one cannot say his heart chakra is fully opened until he realized the illusory body. And this chakra can be fully opened only if it is located very precisely, because all the winds have to dissolve within it to produce clear light of death. And they will never do this by chance.
Anyway, thanks for the site.
You're welcome: 
I had a brief experience of my Self bathed in light when the moon was full and the sun was at perihelion for the year Jan. 3, 2007. The location was above the heart center, but I'm not familiar with the Tibetan System, so maybe you could help me and explain why I had the experience at that time or what chakra that is considered? I am not realized, but it seems that the process is attached to planetary proximity or something or other.
VIL |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 7:12:38 PM
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Hi
I don't know tibetan astrology, so I can't help you with this, but it is usually said that energy is more active with full moon. But for the heart chakra, it is higher than what is usually told. In fact it is 1/3 way between the solar plexus and collar bones, and of course at the center of the chest. This I can tell because all the darshans put a seed there, and the last time I had some, I considered very carefully where they went... Was the chakra that you felt higher in your experience ? Because there is another important chakra, exactly between throat chakra and heart chakra, I don't remember the name. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 7:48:28 PM
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quote:
Hi
I don't know tibetan astrology, so I can't help you with this, but it is usually said that energy is more active with full moon. But for the heart chakra, it is higher than what is usually told. In fact it is 1/3 way between the solar plexus and collar bones, and of course at the center of the chest. This I can tell because all the darshans put a seed there, and the last time I had some, I considered very carefully where they went... Was the chakra that you felt higher in your experience ? Because there is another important chakra, exactly between throat chakra and heart chakra, I don't remember the name.
Thanks for the information, kadak:
A little above the sternum, if I remember correctly.
Do you have a site where I can view the seed placement and other chakras?
(I'll go against my own advice and try and pin point the chakra: )
Thank you,
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 31 2007 9:09:02 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2008 : 07:15:56 AM
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No, I know no site with the correct locations. You have to find by yourself. Probably you cannot be certain by now, but watch carefully the next time you'll be in love, or the next time you will have a great darshan, or a great devotion. Here is the heart chakra. And sometimes the master looks into your eyes, and you feel it exactly (and it is not in the back  ) |
Edited by - kadak on Jan 01 2008 09:10:32 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2008 : 08:25:57 AM
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Hi Kadak,
quote:
And then I found some teaching of Amma (the indian Saint), saying that all the treatises saying that the centers are in the spine are false.
Interesting. Which treatise is that from? I also experience the chakras to be located on the central line from Sahasrar to Muladhar, and not on the spine. I had never heard that Amma also felt this.
Hi Vil
quote:
One person may state that their heart center (located within the chest) if fully opened, because they feel intense feelings of bliss, while another may state that the same chakra is open, but is located on the back(behind the heart), within the sympathetic nerve area, although the person experiences love, which is not attached to this location or even to the body.
In the yogic system there are two major heart centres (not including the physical heart). The heart chakra is the one in front, and the sacred heart is behind it. It is a bit confusing though because although the sacred heart is said to be located behind the heart chakra it is actually quite big. That is why when people experience love here it can feel like the experience is not located in the body. Love experienced at the heart chakra has the feeling of flowing, expanding, connecting, but love experienced at the true heart (behind the heart chakra) has the feeling of holding or containing existance in a unified field of love that is beyond time.
Christi |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2008 : 3:24:45 PM
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quote:
Interesting. Which treatise is that from? I also experience the chakras to be located on the central line from Sahasrar to Muladhar, and not on the spine. I had never heard that Amma also felt this.
In fact it was an oral teaching...
quote:
It is a bit confusing though because although the sacred heart is said to be located behind the heart chakra it is actually quite big. That is why when people experience love here it can feel like the experience is not located in the body. Love experienced at the heart chakra has the feeling of flowing, expanding, connecting, but love experienced at the true heart (behind the heart chakra) has the feeling of holding or containing existance in a unified field of love that is beyond time.
Where did you find this ?
In the tibetan, christian and indian system as I know them, the "true" heart center is very small, containing the supracausal body (for indians) which keeps trace of all the karma. Tibetans are more specific. It is said to contain the undestructible heart drop, in which you find the very subtle wind and the very subtle mind, which is the one experimenting clear light (our true nature), and which passes from life to life. (So, when some people ask "what reincarnates if there is no self" ? In fact there is no self, but there is a support for our karma, which is the undestructible heart drop) |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2008 : 09:43:14 AM
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kadak: quote:
No, I know no site with the correct locations. You have to find by yourself. Probably you cannot be certain by now, but watch carefully the next time you'll be in love, or the next time you will have a great darshan, or a great devotion. Here is the heart chakra. And sometimes the master looks into your eyes, and you feel it exactly (and it is not in the back )
Thanks, sounds good, kadak. Love from whatever, where-ever or whomever is a wonderful thing:
Christi: quote:
The heart chakra is the one in front, and the sacred heart is behind it. It is a bit confusing though because although the sacred heart is said to be located behind the heart chakra it is actually quite big.
That makes sense, since I experienced the sacred heart to the left on the back, behind the heart, in the beginning of the journey, which was preempted by an internal itching and love. The only thing that made the itching subside was when I focused on this area and my heart beat and breath became one. And it felt as though my heart stopped, whether that was a misperception, on my part, or not; I'm not sure, but it was a little disconcerting, because I didn't understand what was going on at the time. And I constantly felt as though I was disassociating from consciousness by these intense feelings of love. Through reading, I later learned that I was experiencing Samadhi, but did not fully surrender to the process, due to attachment. Years later, my perception of the heart center changed and was located in the center of the upper chest, where I briefly experienced the inner light and the seat of the Self.
kadak: quote:
Tibetans are more specific. It is said to contain the undestructible heart drop, in which you find the very subtle wind and the very subtle mind, which is the one experimenting clear light (our true nature), and which passes from life to life.
As a teenager I used to use my purse my lips when I was in a semi conscious state while focusing on the heart center where I experienced an internal itching. The experience was that of the breath turning from warm to cool and then to water which pooled from every direction around the heart. This precipitation created a hardness, in the center of the chest, as I expelled the breath, I would experience a heart orgasm - is the only way to describe it. It was almost like a thrusting sensation, at times, between the heart and base center. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Like the thrusting of the diaphram to the base chakra? Or maybe, kadak, you could ask your teacher if he/she would know? I briefly explained this experience on this forum a while back. Is it possible that this is the 'heart drop' that they're talking about?
Anyway, thanks for your help, kadak and Christi. I'm glad that we have this forum to learn from each other and share our experiences:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Jan 02 2008 3:23:19 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2008 : 6:08:57 PM
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Hi you guys, I posted this elsewhere but in reading this thread I thought you might find it interesting as well.
Here is a different perspective on the chakras from Sexual Energy and Yoga by Elisabeth Haich:
Is there an apprataus in men where the vibrations, the frequencies of the energies can be transformed and changed into different forms of manifestations? Yes. There are several. They are the chakras whiich which not only send out rays, but also function as transformers. We know this however, only with our intellect. If I use the nerve centres, the seat of the chakras, I experience the various vibrations not as 'vibration' or 'frequency', but directly as conscious states of being. I take as an example the ears, that is to say, the auditory nerves which receive all the vibrations of sound nad impart these to my consciousness. Although I have learned with my intellect that the sounds are vibrations and that the different sounds have different frequencies, my conscious ness will not perceive them as different vibrations, but I shall hear them quite simply as different sounds. I shall be unable to notice the number of vibrations, more or less, of one sound compared with another, but, I shall hear them as lower- and higher-pitched sounds.
So it is with creative power. In its lower vibrations I shall be unable to notice how they vibrate, but rather I shall feel and notice them in my body as sexual urge. In its higher vibrations - in my soul - I shall feel them as love, as the spiritual urge for unity. Even higher, as the urge for creative manifestation, as natural talents, as intuition and creative ideas. In their very highest frequencies, I shall be them, as a purely spiritual state of being - as I AM.
Just as the ears and auditory nerves enable me to hear sounds, so that I am aware of the sounds but not the ears and auditory nerves, so I am aware of creative power with the various organs of manifestation and the chakras as the sexual urge, as feelings and as direct states of being. I feel the activation of the higher nerve and brain centres only to the extent that I suddenly become intuitive, that I have creative ideas and an inclination for creative work, that unsuspected talents come to light, that there is a remarkable increase in my will-power and power of concentration, that I become self-assured and I notice by my effect on other people that I have acquired suggestive powers and as a result have become that centre of attention.
Therefore I must not expect that the chakras and their seat, the higher nerve and brain centres, announce themselves by any kind of feelings or other signs, when they go into action. I notice the ears, auditory nerves and other sense organs, as also the higher nerve and brain centres and the chakras, only if they are not quite in order and perhaps cause pain. As long as they function healthily I am not aware of their existence.
I shall be as unable to gauge the frequency differences as - to remain with our example - the ears are to gauge the vibration differences of sounds; they transmit them to my consciousness as lower or higher pitched sounds, which I simply hear.
It is only as various states of consciousness that I can feel directly, experience, or in the highest form, become identical with the various frequencey differences of the various forms of creative power. And if I call these forms of manifestation lower or higher, I do so for the same reason that I call a sound lower or higher because I hear it like that - lower or higher! If we explain what a sound is, then we can give as detailed a description as possible of the vibrations and frequencies of sounds, and yet we shall be totally unable to make a creature that has no ears understand how we hear a sound, or indeed, what it even means to hear. I should be still less able to explain that a sound may be 'lower' or 'higher', and least of all what the difference in sound is, for instance, of a flute, a violin or an organ. If this creature once tried to hear - and managed to do so - then it would hear from personal experience, instantaneously, directly and without need of further explanantion....
As long as we do not make the effort, we shall never be able to understand the nature of the bliss, fulfilment, and absolute contentment and self-confidence which we experience as a conscious state of being if we have become able to transform creative power from its sexual form into its higher form, and can say, I am it.
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Jan 02 2008 6:30:34 PM |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2008 : 8:17:36 PM
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I'll jump in on this one.As these posts indicate there is a lot written on location of chakras, which varies based on whether you consider Indian or Tibetan sources (or New Age folks too I suppose though the latter seem pretty metaphorical).And the posts that preceed this one, share a lot of hear-say information about who thinks what about where the chakras are, and if they are metaphorical in say the Heart being "Divine Love" or "I Am" or something else. Some people think chakras don't exist at all and some think that you can just do meditation, and ignore them entirely. So there is all kinds of comments and beliefs about them. I hope you won't consider me totally full of baloney if I make some comments about some direct, personal, recurring, probably mystical or psychic perceptions of the chakras. I do not speak from having read this or that about them. I just know them and would like to share some of that information if you will bear with me...As far as perception, there is what may be considered a mystical level of visual perception of the various chakras, if you are of psychic disposition. We are all so very different, that it's reminiscent of the blind men describing what an elephant is like(it's like a rope if you feel it's tail, etc.) "It's located here, no it's behind that one, no its big, no it's little, no it's just the perception of divine love, etc"
So there is another way to look at it, as a direct visual psychic or mystical perception.. I think this is how the whole concept of individual energy vortex centers originated in the first place. So I thought I might add when and how I percieve the chakras. It occurs just at the time of awakening from sleep in the predawn hours. The one in the chest is a large spiral of a golden thread, that fills the chest entirely front to back, hums sweetly, like a little electric motor(you might say it "sounds" like MMMM or HUMMM), and sometimes will suddenly expand outwards. That humming can continue for a long time within perception. Then when you are fully awake the perception ends.
The abdomenal chakra is likewise a very large spiral of a gold colored thread, also wound clockwise, and totally fills the abdomen from below diaphragm to suprapubic area. These two chakras(chest and abdomen) are the largest, except for the Crown chakra which is a display of different colored lights, that seems to go out to infinity. (On one occasion, something different occurred in the Crown area: there appeared to be a large gold spiral with a planetary sphere here and there, like individual sworls of the golden thread in those locations. This latter perception only occurred once,while on a retreat, but it lasted several minutes, long enough to look it all over thoroughly. At the time I assumed to to be a Sahasrara manifestation, but perhaps was Soma Chakra, which I understand is a large chakra at the base of the crown, above Ajna.) However the recurring perception, which is always the same perception, of the Crown chakra, in my experience, is that described above of a field of different colored points of light, seemingly a limitless number of points on a black background. It seems like looking out into the Cosmos.)
All of these perceptions occur for just maybe 15 to up to maybe 60 seconds, and then disappear because by then the clouds of ordinary waking consciousness blocks their view. These have occurred every few nights, or a week or two apart at times, for a number of years.
Incidentally someone was wondering in a post above about a chakra situated between Anahata and the Throat chakra. That one is called Kala chakra. His Holiness, The Dalai Lama, is the lineage holder for the Kala Chakra mantra, it having been passed down from H.H.,The Buddha Himself; and when it is recited daily, is said to bestow the siddhi of understanding Time. (Not in my case, I'm usually 5 minutes late.) I practice the kalachakra mantra, endorse it's use whole heartedly,find it to be a very potent energetic practice for Kala chakra development and the entire system at large, and incidentally relates to Shambhala(long story). I would be happy to share the mantra for Kala chakra with whoever might be interested. Sorry for this diversion regarding Kala Chakra and it's mantra.
Anyhow, I think these observations I am describing, are not particular to just myself,nor some isolated imaginary, subjective experience, because I have gone into researching this out, within the esoteric literature, to find that the same imagery is described by others, in both the yogic and theosophical literature. Thus, verified by others.
So a question I have, is, why do some of us have perceptions like these, and some of us don't (though we all do the same meditative practices, which I assume has something to do with these visions happening?) My theory is that we are all different and have different aptitudes. Some of us are psychic or have mystical propensities or potentialities that we can learn to develop, and have that potential because of having been born that way, others of us have other inborn aptitudes, (all given to us for unknown reasons) like the different flowers in the field. That's all part of the Mystery! I realize this is just one level to consider, regarding perceiving the chakras and there undoubtedly are much more subtle refined perceptions than these. You can take this or leave it, or view me as nuts. I hope this might interest someone. |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 03 2008 11:25:06 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2008 : 11:51:17 AM
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Hi All:
In the AYP approach, we regard kundalini awakening to be a whole body event from the very beginning, not specific to any individual chakra. We take the fewest possible incremental steps in practices to facilitate whole body kundalini awakening, and thereby avoid getting hung up in trying to manage the details of the inner machinery (chakras, etc.), which is impossible.
Cultivating a foundation of inner silence is the first step in this process of fewest incremental steps, with the next step being the awakening of ecstatic conductivity in the spinal nerve between root to brow. Whole body ecstatic conductivity on the cellular level occurs simultaneously when the spinal nerve awakens. If we attend to inner silence and awakening of the spinal nerve, the rest will take care of itself. It is a natural process.
This is why the AYP practices begin with deep meditation for cultivating inner silence, and then expand to spinal breathing and other energy related methods (mudras, bandhas, additional pranayama techniques, etc.)
Symptoms occurring in any particular area of the body indicate purification and opening there. This is not where kundalini is beginning to awaken. Awakening kundalini flows everywhere simultaneously, and localized symptoms we are able to perceive are where it happens to be meeting resistance at the moment. While we may be tempted to focus intently on localized symptoms, we will be wise to favor our broad practice regimen over developing complex strategies aimed at localized symptoms.
The symptoms will eventually pass (evolve to ever more refined levels of ecstatic bliss) as whole body purification and opening advance. If we become obsessed with localized symptoms, we may delay the opening of the whole in favor of the part. This is why "energy work" is not encouraged much in AYP. The human nervous system is much smarter than we are for attending to localized functioning. That is why we attend to the whole in the best ways we know, to enable the divine intelligence within us to attend to all the parts, which it can do very well if we will be patient.
Having said that, we will all respond to our symptoms in ways that will bring us a smoother path and a sense of progress. This is certainly legitimate, and it is what self-pacing is all about. At the same time, we should be mindful about our tendency to become obsessed about our perceived symptoms.
It is self-inquiry really -- discriminating and easily favoring the whole over the parts. That is, favoring the subject (our inner silence/witness and whole body awakening) even as we are interacting with and within the objects (our multifarious experiences in life).
In the end, the subject merges with the objects, and only the One that has always been remains. Stillness in action and outpouring divine love!
The guru is in you.
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2008 : 1:28:11 PM
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Agree basically. The purification process will cause initial symptoms of existential doubt, physical pain, and involuntary kriyas, both painful physically and emotionally distressing. It's the dark night of the soul at these times. But true growth is then not far away, and that's followed by permanent changes, that are anything but painful. The practice is to sit with both the agony and the ecstasy, aiming for equanimity and dispassion: in other words, neither back away from the one nor embrace the other. Once the entire system has opened up, there is a new level of functioning we couldn't have ever anticipated. Depending upon where awareness is seated, there may be revelations of various kinds, and we may see clearly this chakra or that. And there is a great plasticity of our mystical body and refinements will be constantly occurring in levels of heightened consciousness. Mystical perceptions, when and if they occur are a rare blessing, and who knows when the clouds will clear away again and allow us a brief glimpse of the sun. But those times are not illusions, nor symptoms. And when these mystical perceptions recur exactly the same each time, that offers some verification of their authenticity. Our goal and our practice remains the same in absolute simplicity: to continue the same practice, to sit unperturbed, in meditation.
John |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 04 2008 02:37:31 AM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 08:03:03 AM
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| Hi John, your experience is very interesting, and I don't believe you're nuts. The more we practice, the more we experiment and understand about subtle body and maybe higher ones... and what you say about chakras is not contradictory with what I feel, even if I've currently seen less than you. As for kalachakra, it seems to me that the mantra needs a transmission (lung or initiation), and that is would be not very efficient on a person without this transmission. |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 11:49:27 AM
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Hi Kadak,
As far as Kala chakra mantra, (or any mantra for that matter) requiring some ritualistic initiation and transmission from our teacher or guru, who is the flesh and blood representation of H.H. The Buddha, or from H.H. Lord Shiva, could one say, along the lines of AYP principles, that we have or ARE that guru within us? Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism in particular, seems steeped in ritual and formality which may not be so culturally needed in our free ranging and fiercely independent minded western culture. Besides I am just a simple guy, with no physical guru in sight, and so we have little recourse but to have faith in that guru within us. Or alternatively, you may be willing to conceed to the premise that we had the pleasure and the grace of sitting with this allegedly required guru in a previous lifetime whom we needed so much to have as the flesh and blood representation of Divinity, during that previous incarnation, and our guru has dropped the body and now you have become that representation of the guru, yourself. And so ultimately, in this brief and sweet physical incarnation of yours and mine, we are left with the ultimate wisdom of H.H. Yogani and his thematic statement which it is a great honor to now myself recite and resolve, as his momentary representative, here, in webspace, that...The guru is in you. Much love to you.
John |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 04 2008 11:59:39 AM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 12:25:13 PM
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Hi John, I'm not someone very fond of gurus, and during 10 years I worked alone. But now that I can "feel" what gurus do (at a certain level, at least), I know that they help much. Tibetan buddhist seems to be stuck in some ritualism, but it is our ignorance which makes us believe this. As soon as you can feel the subtle body (and higher), you can feel the transmissions, which are done directly from subtle level to subtle level, and it is not imagination. There is another level of transmission, which is said to be "mind to mind", but I cannot feel it because it affects the causal body which I can't feel for the moment. But, as the subtle body has proved to be true, I think the causal and supracausal body are themselves existing, and that direct transmissions exist at this level.
If you had seen a fully accomplished master, an avatar like Amma or Mother Meera, you wouldn't say that. What they do is really astonishing. The Shakti that Amma has put in her practices is great, but if you do the practice without the transmission, it'll be worth nothing. Tibetan practices are designed like that, especially mantras. |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2008 : 12:57:50 PM
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I disagree regarding your comment regarding a mantra practice: "if you do the practices without the transmission, it will be worth nothing".
So let's agree to disagree!
John |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 04 2008 11:18:46 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2008 : 07:30:27 AM
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| OK, but please note that it is not I who says this, but the masters. A tertön would say his terma is ineffective without transmission, and Amma says her mantras are ineffective without initiation. There are of course effective mantras like Om mani padme hung etc... which can be used without initiation but for Kalachakra for example, the "discoverer" of the practice would say that one needs an initiation. And personnally, I couldn't do a practice against the advice of its discoverer. If you disregard a master, you cannot think better of his practice. That's just logic. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2008 : 10:15:46 AM
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kadak, a few thoughts, if you don't mind a bit of disagreement!
There isn't a lineage/tradition in the world that doesn't maintain that lineage (e.g. by requiring initiation) with at least some degree of tenacity. That's how you preserve a teaching, and I'm not knocking teachers for building in such procedures (though I suspect it's just as often about preserving profitability as preserving a lineage...in fact, the two are inextricably close). But time has proven, again and again (particularly in the past hundred years, when the cats have gotten out of the bag) that one can definitely unwind such political procedures from spiritual practice without ill effect.
Nearly everything taught in AYP is torn out of the playbook of one or more lineages/traditions. It's VERY pick-and-choosy, it's VERY about disregarding the bulk of injunctions and instructions from those who've passed down these practices. And it works well, nonetheless. This proves one needn't buy the whole package to extract the pearls.
I'm not saying that gurus don't help, however. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jan 05 2008 10:35:45 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2008 : 11:29:41 AM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
Jim wrote:
There isn't a lineage/tradition in the world that doesn't maintain that lineage (e.g. by requiring initiation) with at least some degree of tenacity. That's how you preserve a teaching, and I'm not knocking teachers for building in such procedures (though I suspect it's just as often about preserving profitability as preserving a lineage...in fact, the two are inextricably close).
Wouldn't you say that it is also fundamentally and basically a way to preserve the ego as well?
"My school, my tradition, my way, my importance. I/we am/are right and you are all wrong." Etc., etc., etc.
Best, yb. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 12:51:59 AM
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| There are good and non-egoic reasons to preserve a lineage. That motives of preservation can be copted by ego is undoubtedly true. But fundamentally and basically? I think that's overstatement. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 07:43:43 AM
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quote:
Jim wrote:
That motives of preservation can be copted by ego is undoubtedly true. But fundamentally and basically? I think that's overstatement.
Perhaps initially it is an overstatement. But who can say what were the initial motivations of the founder of a lineage? You would hope they were pure.
quote:
though I suspect it's just as often about preserving profitability as preserving a lineage...
This statement is what I was thinking about. I was thinking more about the inevitable inclusion of egos in the group with less altruistic motives than those of the initiator which is maybe what you are referring to in the above quote.
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Edited by - yogibear on Jan 06 2008 08:21:27 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 08:37:12 AM
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Hi Jim,
"There are good and non-egoic reasons to preserve a lineage. That motives of preservation can be copted by ego is undoubtedly true. But fundamentally and basically? I think that's overstatement."
I agree with you on that, in my experience that is an overstatement although in some cases that may be the case.In my experience there are valid reasons for preserving lineages although I only speak of the one I am a part of.Following the siddha path which uses shaktipat as a means of spiritual growth I can categorically state(in my experience)that there is no substitute for advancement than shaktipat.If done in the correct manner it eliminates many years of practices neeeded to awaken the Kundalini and in a safer manner with fewer problems or side effects.Again as we have stated before shaktipat is no sustitute for practicing, it is only 'lighting the stick' so we still need to work.If only to preserve the means of 'lighting the stick' and aiding others in their spiritual path,then I think there is a serious argument for preserving some lineages.
L&L
Dave |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 12:35:57 PM
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Hi,
I would like to know if AYP system makes a difference regarding the physical locations between the sexual chakra, Ida and Pingali for a woman and a man.
The reason for my question is that Tibetan schools introduce three secret or sexual chakras: secret, middle secret and tip secret. When reading Lama Yeshe book "The Bliss of Inner Fire", one can find a different location in the body for a man and a women for these three secret chakras. Furthermore, there seems to be specific red tantric technique to merge the feminine secret chakras with the masculine secret chakras.
The other book by Gueshe Kelsang Gyatso "Clear Light of Bliss" does not introduce for some reason such polarity and biology position difference. In fact, this book seems to be really oriented for man only unless the book does not want to reveal specific secrets about the uniqueness of a woman sexual chakras.
Another difference I've found is about Ida (Left channel) and Pingali (right channel) where from Hindu or Tibetan, both start at the respective nostrils hence that part is in sync but there is a difference where they end. The tibetan schools say Left Channel ends up at the end of the sexual organ and Right Channel ends at the anus. Again both books do not give a precise location of what is the end of a sexual orgam for a woman which is a missing information I'm looking for on AYP, Hindu or Tibetan perspective.
Thank you in advance if you can answer my questions, Albert |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2008 : 1:17:17 PM
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Hi Albert, and a belated welcome!
There have been discussions in the forums on unique experiential factors noticed in the lower centers for women practitioners. I can't put my finger on the link(s) at the moment, but perhaps the ladies who were involved in those discussions can point you to them.
Generally, in the AYP approach we do not focus too much on the inner mechanics, either intellectually or experientially, as the practices we use are sufficient to cultivate the necessary awakening in both sexes, which is the expansion of inner silence no matter where we happen to be looking in the neurobiology. There is a potential cost in focusing on the detailed mapping -- it can distract us from the whole of human spiritual transformation. This was also discussed in my previous post in this topic, regarding localized kundalini/energy symptoms.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Chakra location
