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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 26 2007 : 8:24:09 PM
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I always have an impulse to spread my legs and stretch my inside pelvis and inside thighs when I'm doing Shoulder Stand.
Also, when I do Corpse Pose I like to do a little internal organ massage, in Taoist terms, "Chi Nei Tsang" for about a minute or two and then relax. Then start sitting. Question: Are these variations helpful or hurtful? Anybody? Victor, Jim?
Thanks,
Guy |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2007 : 10:04:06 PM
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re: thigh stretching, it's ok depending on the direction of the stretch. In shoulder stand, as in most every other pose, you want to internally rotate the thighs (not the knees....the THIGHS, and the action starts in the hips). To really highlight what that's like, stand in tadasana and take a yoga block right between your thighs (yes, with legs right together...tough squeeze, but it's doable), and the make the block move back, so it looks like it's emerging, in back of you, as from a Pez dispenser (did I just show my age?). As for inside pelvis, can you be more specific?
If you're doing corpse, do CORPSE. As in dead body. No fooling around. It's a real pose, not just a repose (hey, I sound like Jesse Jackson!).
If you want to do some internal organ massage lying down, that's great. but it's not corpse. Do it separate from your asana practice, is my suggestion. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 07:54:10 AM
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Hi Guy,
Doing the sideways split is a great variation on the theme and you can use the weight of your legs to get a gentle stretching pressure in your pelvis and groin. I do it in the headstand sometimes, too.
Jim, why is it so crucial to rotate the thighs? Iyengar is the only hatha yogi that I know of that emphasises this point. What is the benefit?
For me, the most important thing is to get the blood out of the legs and pelvis and into the neck and head. This is where the benefit of the posture lies.
And if you are able, to concentrate the prana in the thyroid gland until you achieve a sensation of boiling heat there.
That is my take, Guy. Best, yb. |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 07:58:38 AM
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Hi Jim:
Thanks for your response. The Pez analogy works perfectly for me.
When I say stretch the pelvis I mean open the area on eighter side of the genitalia by spreading the legs when they are pointing skyward.
All the best:
Guy |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 08:29:54 AM
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Hi Yogibear:
How and when do you concentrate the prana in the thyroid gland?
By the way, what was Yogibear's sidekicks name?
Guy |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 11:39:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by robertjames
When I say stretch the pelvis I mean open the area on eighter side of the genitalia by spreading the legs when they are pointing skyward.
Hmm, sorry, I'm not getting it. But you're referring to what hatha yogis call "the groins". In Iyengar yoga, that area should be relaxed always (especially in forward bends!). There is, however, a shoulder stand variation where the legs are brought down to the side (maintaining that pez-dispenser thigh rotation). Even then, the groins are relaxed, but you get a nice stretch there. Is that what you mean by spreading the legs?
Yogibear, I'm the furthest thing from an Iyengar acolyte/purist. I'm not among those who think he's a the messiah :) And there are a lot like me...those who've put in our time training in his system, but are disenchanted by a lot of things he says and does. But in terms of the body and its mechanics and energy pathways, there's no one alive, perhaps no one alive in centuries, with his level of penetrating knowledge. And even the most outcast ex-Iyengar system maverick will say the same, I'm pretty sure without exception. Of course my simply saying this doesn't do much for those who haven't put in decades studying his system. But I'm throwing it out there, because the answer to your question is that the main reason for the internal thigh rotation (which other schools of yoga ARE gradually picking up on) is that it aligns the energy pathways. That's what all Iyengar's niggling-seeming adjustments are about: a macro version of what we do more subtly in meditation: straighten out the energy kinks and resolve blocks. The thigh rotation I took on faith for years. But at this point there's not a doubt in my mind that that move is a critical way to facilitate smooth energy movement up/down the legs. Victor can surely add a physiological perspective, if he sees this and has time. There are physical benefits to this. But one thing I'll say....even yogis who've never heard of Iyengar figure out not to let their knees and thighs splay outward in forward bends and standing poses, if they're experienced. Beginners almost always do. So, on that level, it's something that simply comes as you practice. Iyengar took it to another level by suggesting we find this action in every pose. Which makes sense IMO....
I've never found a single adjustment or alignment detail suggested by Iyengar that was simply arbitrary, though it's taken me a loong time to verify each one for myself. Now, if we talk about Iyengar's pranayama, or yogic philosophy, or anything else not directly about the body, that's another story entirely |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 27 2007 1:29:21 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 1:32:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by robertjames
How and when do you concentrate the prana in the thyroid gland?
some people refer to shoulderstand as "the thyroid pose". Thyroid is at base of neck, in front, so it's pressured in this pose. Your question is asked timely. Here's my suggestion:
search for the words "dilate your throat" in this posting:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3296
BTW, to demonstrate my impurity re: Iyengar, try doing fish pose after shoulderstand...it is classically considered the ideal counterstretch because it pressurizes the thyroid in the other direction. Iyengar doesn't teach it because he worries the neck compression could hurt some students. It doesn't hurt me, and you can make the decision for yourself (but do it VERY carefully).
quote:
By the way, what was Yogibear's sidekicks name?
Boo-boo!! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 27 2007 1:34:42 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 7:58:08 PM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
Jim wrote:
BTW, to demonstrate my impurity re: Iyengar, try doing fish pose after shoulderstand...
I am with you. I like the classical way sometimes very much.
quote:
Jim wrote:
I'm the furthest thing from an Iyengar acolyte/purist. I'm not among those who think he's a the messiah :) And there are a lot like me...those who've put in our time training in his system, but are disenchanted by a lot of things he says and does.
“Using no way as way; having no limitation as limitation.” Bruce Lee
“I am free of all bonds. I am free. I am free.” Selvarajan Yesudian
"Feel free." Yogiraj Behramji
I first practiced seriously with the books by Yesudian and Haich. Yoga and Health, Sexual Energy and Yoga, and Raja Yoga.
Then I met my teacher. He studied beginner level with Iyengar in India for 7 seven years, once a week back in the 60s. When I say beginner, I mean in terms of flexibility. I learned these alignments from him.
For me, this internal rotation is unnatural and a distraction. And I emphasis, for me.
I got away from what initially brought me success when practicing.
Guy, I will answer your question with what I was initially practicing. You see, I think it is a matter of what you are trying to accomplish that determines what you place emphasis on. My emphasis with Sarvangasana is just to get the benefit of gravity with the blood. And then when you are upside down, with every inhale you breathe prana into your lungs and heart, and with every exhale, you send it and blood to the thyroid gland with absolute complete concentration. You feel as if you yourself are penetrating the thyroid gland. You are it. This last part is the key, Guy. There is no point to the exercise unless you are totally invoved. Well, again, you will get benefit to the degree that you are able to concentrate and repeated attempts bring fruit. So my attention is on the thyroid gland and I place just enough attention on alignment to achieve my end.
I used to do this with the headstand, too. My head would literally feel soaked with liquid heat. Conversely, my brain felt like it was on ice afterwards. I felt completely insulated from all outside forces and yet, more connected and aware after this than ever. I knew that someone was trying to influence me but there was an impenetrable wall that totally prevented it. My consciousness was totally stablized and detached.
This condition might be your normal for some of you on this site. For me it, was a dramatic change.
Heart, thyroid, spine and brain were my emphasis at the time.
I can’t do it now.
You can do this exercise with any body part. If you practice faithfully, you can create what is called liquid fire, the fire of life, and concentrate it in any part of the body. This will rejuvenate that part. This is what they teach in their books, Yoga and Health and also Sexual energy and Yoga. This is the emphasis as far as the body goes. Complete rejuvenation of the body at the cellular level. Perfection of the body. But it is more than this.
The less you ejaculate the stronger your ability will be to achieve this. But of course, nto via repression. I like her method because it is like Yogani’s and very stripped down. It is simply the more celibacy the better, spinal breathing, concentration, meditation, physical and mental creative work.
It is an ounce of application is worth a ton of theory. She just gives you enough to apply and says that you should be able to figure it out for yourself if you just keep practicing sincerely.
An ounce of experience is worth a ton of theory.
The jury is out in my mind on the necessity of these subtle refinements, the micro movements of the Iyengar system. There does have to be some allegiance to good form, that is for sure, but to what degree is arguable.
But since I was able to achieve some very significant changes in my physiology applying the principles espoused by Y and H, for my purposes, at this point in time, alignment is good when you are doing more of an exercise type of approach and is secondary and even unnecessary (to the degree Iyengar gets into it) when your purpose is combining the higher degree of hatha (according to Yesudian and Haich) with the asanas.
I have found, in my experience, that it is the degree of internal awareness that is brought to the asana, really doing it, being there completely that has caused alignment in my energy field. I think I mentioned in a previous post observing my spine rotating into position during an asana and it wasn’t due to any effort in that direction on my part. It just suddenly seemed that my body was responding to a change in my subtle energy due to concentration of my mind in a particular area of the body as prescribed for each posture in their book, Yoga and Health, as for example what I mention with the thyroid and savangasana.
I had never even heard of Iyengar up to this point (1976).
You see, just writing this post clarified my thinking a little more regarding what is emphasized during asana practice and how it easy to get off track. For exercise type benefit of asana, alignment has more emphasis. For activation of spiritual power to create health, concentration in key areas has more importance.
This is from chapter one, True Story of a Sick Boy, in the book, Yoga and Health:
“ ‘Go, my boy and get acquainted with the West...you will realize that the science of Hatha Yoga is not only the way to health, but also the world’s only physical culture method based on the close union between body and soul. Although it is a science for building up the body, it is nevertheless based on mental and spiritual forces...In any case, the teaching will only appeal to those whose mind is free from the blindness of materialism and whose spiritual world is open for a more beautiful and higher order of life...'
‘Master, I knew this a long time ago when I was endeavouring to build up my body. When I directed my attention to the different parts of my body...my muscles and nerve centers, I noticed that hitherto unknown spiritual powers developed within me. To the extent that I became master of my body, my will power increased. You brought me back to life; you took a sickly, emaciated little boy and turned him into an athlete. You took me out of physical ruin and led me back to myself!’..."
A different approach to hatha than that which currently dominates popular culture. There is attention to correct performance of an asana but not in the same way as with Iyengar.
There is something to be said for both.
But my roots are Y and H.
quote:
Jim wrote:
But in terms of the body and its mechanics and energy pathways, there's no one alive, perhaps no one alive in centuries, with his level of penetrating knowledge. And even the most outcast ex-Iyengar system maverick will say the same, I'm pretty sure without exception.
I have got to disagree, Jim, at least as far as energy pathways go. I don't know what his degree of internal awareness is. Maybe he has xray vision. I don't want to presume. I know he has devoted his whole life to this and the direction he went with it, i.e., mechanics of the asana.
Oh well, my thoughts for now. Best, yb.
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2007 : 08:42:40 AM
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Hi Yogibear:
Thanks for the wonderful response. For me pesonally, it's a great reminder to stay alert and focused while doing the 14 Asana's in the AYP Easy Lessons Book. I'll try to get a copy of Yoga and Health. By the way has anyone read "Anatomy of Hatha Yoga" by David Coulter?
Wishing everyone an Awesome 2008
Guy |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2007 : 07:57:49 AM
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HI Jim,
A little more with regards to my diagreement with you about Iyengar. I have often wondered what is degree of his internal awareness. Can he feels his diaphragm, can he feels his lungs, his heart? How alive is his body?
I know at one point in time he was emphasizing or talking about skin movement during asana practice I thought was quite a novel idea.
The reason I have wondered is because there are many people who are flexible, but that doesn't mean that their body is transparent to them or that they anything more than an athlete. Rhythmic gymnasts for example.
You probably know more than me about it. I have never taken a class from him. I have got some dvds of him.
But this style of asanas, the Krishnamacharya lineage seems like such an externally oriented exercise type of yoga to me that I wonder about the development of internal awareness beyond the neuromuscuoskeletal realm.
Also with regards to nadis. What is his awareness of this? Reading your posts, you are very interested in the front channel it seems in the recent past.
His penetration of correct movement with the posture mechanically is really outstanding, but is it based on energy perception are just that it feels good or right to him? Again, that internal rotation of the thighs during shoulderstand is one adjustment that makes no sense to me.
By the way, I hope your bladder karma is good now.
Best, yb.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2007 : 10:56:34 AM
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| Yogibear, obviously, there's no way for Iyengar himself to definitively prove his own level of internal body awareness, much less for me to prove the same to you third-hand! But I'll stand by what I said. As far as I'm concerned, he's the Da Vinci/Einstein/Picasso of this. But I reach that conclusion from 30 years of examining nuggets of evidence (e.g. the absolute genius of his creative, original observations re: alignment, etc), plus anecdotes and impressions by folks I trust who've spent time with him (e.g. really really impressive people who insist - and not just in a forced-modest way - that they're nothing compared to him). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 30 2007 11:16:08 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2007 : 6:12:09 PM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
Jim wrote:
But I reach that conclusion from 30 years of examining nuggets of evidence (e.g. the absolute genius of his creative, original observations re: alignment, etc), plus anecdotes and impressions by folks I trust who've spent time with him
For example.....
Thanks, yb. |
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Shoulder Stand ?
