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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 05 2007 : 3:45:45 PM
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I've been attempting sambhavi for a few weeks now. I say "attempting" because every time I close my eyes and raise them to my third eye, my eyelids begin twitching and fluttering. This movement creates spectacular visualizations, but I am not really able to bring my attention up and down the spinal nerve.
To the extent that I am able to concentrate, however, my level of meditative absorption has increased exponentially - the outside world immediately disappears. I feel that perhaps I have tapped into a tremendous energy source but am unable to control it.
Has anyone had this experience? Any suggestions?
Namaste,
Joe |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2007 : 5:56:38 PM
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| I have experienced this before during very high energy sessions (usually entheogen-induced). I have actually found them to increase my ability to trace the spinal nerve, however, it does have a habit of causing one to favor the third eye over the root chakra. i'd say go with it :-) |
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2007 : 05:34:54 AM
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Hi Joe,
I've occasionally experienced this as well, but not to the extent that it is too distracting. If you can't concentrate on tracing the spine (and obviously that's the main point), maybe it would help to cut out or reduce one of the elements of sambhavi for a while, and build in the mudra more slowly, bit by bit. What about not furrowing the brow and just raising the eyes instead? Or what if you don't raise the eyes so much? I've noticed that in my case the efficacy of sambhavi is related to the combination of these two things, so maybe in your case leaving one of them out would be enough to prevent the fluttering.
Otherwise, it sounds like you're reaping its benefits - so that's great in the long term, even if the twitching is in the way for the time being. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2007 : 10:20:23 AM
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Be aware that there are gradations of sambhavi. You may find in time that your eyes are able to go miles higher than when you just started. By the same token, you can do less sambhavi by only rolling them slightly upward. Since you seem especially sensitive, I'd suggest you do exactly that for a while until things get less dramatic.
Before AYP, I used to think drama was a good sign, and I'd do whatever was necessary to conjure up more. AYP shifted my perspective, and I now look at practice more pragmatically: I'm wearing away at a mountain with a toothbrush, and the drama is nothing more than the dust and grit stirred up by the process. It's not something to pursue, more something to withstand as we do this long haul work. Insofar as the drama pulls me away from the practice, I take steps to reduce the drama. That's the essence of self pacing...and the degree of sambhavi you choose to do is very much a self pacing decision.
Even more seriously: the drama can become dramatically uncomfortable beyond a certain point, and so there's a need to self-pace to stay well beneath that point so there's sufficient headroom. If you stay right at the top edge, any burst of extra intensity can unwittingly send you into a bad state of overdoing. It's very unpleasant.
Yogani states this more eloquently than I do. I'd strongly suggest you reread his lessons on self-pacing (and the other lessons, if you haven't read them yet, as well). |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 05:54:05 AM
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quote:
Jim wrote:
Even more seriously: the drama can become dramatically uncomfortable beyond a certain point, and so there's a need to self-pace to stay well beneath that point so there's sufficient headroom. If you stay right at the top edge, any burst of extra intensity can unwittingly send you into a bad state of overdoing. It's very unpleasant.
Yogani states this more eloquently than I do. I'd strongly suggest you reread his lessons on self-pacing (and the other lessons, if you haven't read them yet, as well).
Hi Joe,
I'm sure it won't do you any harm to read up on self-pacing, but flashing lights and flickering eyelids are not necessarily a symptom of overdoing things. It is a fairly common occurance as the third eye starts to open. It should settle down after a while, and could easily do so without any adverse symptoms.
Christi
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 10:10:35 AM
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The very basis of AYP is that if the experience from a practice interferes with the doing of that practice (brushjw says "I am not really able to bring my attention up and down the spinal nerve"), we must adjust and pace to favor the practice. In this case, there are definitely gradations of sambhavi mudra, and it's very simple to pace it by doing a less dramatic upturn with the eyeball.
As for the commonness of the symptom and the likeliness of problems stemming therefrom, Christi, I'm wondering what your dataset is on that? |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 07 2007 10:12:09 AM |
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 10:16:08 AM
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Jim wrote:
quote:
As for the commonness of the symptom and the likeliness of problems stemming therefrom, Christi, I'm wondering what your dataset is on that?
Another reason for an AYP survey, as Little Turtle suggests...
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3134 |
Edited by - tallis on Dec 07 2007 10:23:53 AM |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 11:36:14 PM
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Just posting my message on Wednesday helped me to relax and concentrate on spinal breathing while practicing sambhavi. I am learning that an extremely light touch, an essence of attention, is the way to thread this particular needle. Yes, tallis and Jim, raising the eyes less and not furrowing the brow definitely helped.
My yoga experiences change my reality quicker than I am able to adjust mentally. Thank you all for your responses. Your words were food for my soul. It's good to know I'm not on this journey alone.
Namaste,
Joe |
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 03:46:36 AM
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| Your very welcome, Joe! Yes, it's good to be here all together. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 05:32:15 AM
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Hi Jim
quote:
The very basis of AYP is that if the experience from a practice interferes with the doing of that practice (brushjw says "I am not really able to bring my attention up and down the spinal nerve"), we must adjust and pace to favor the practice. In this case, there are definitely gradations of sambhavi mudra, and it's very simple to pace it by doing a less dramatic upturn with the eyeball.
I totally agree. But adjusting practices because something is distracting is very different from something being dangerous. I was pointing out to Joe that there is probably nothing to worry about.
quote:
As for the commonness of the symptom and the likeliness of problems stemming therefrom, Christi, I'm wondering what your dataset is on that?
All the advice given in Yoga (and in this forum by Yogani or anyone else) is based on personal experience. Our datasets are based on this personal experience, both our own experience and that of those we have practiced with or taught over the years. It's going to be like that for a while. But if you know loads of people who started experiencing flashing lights and flickering eyelids and then went downhill real fast after that I would be interested to know, as it would add to my database.
If it really isn't a major concern for worry, then why worry anyone?
Christi
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 09:41:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by brushjw
Just posting my message on Wednesday helped me to relax and concentrate on spinal breathing while practicing sambhavi. I am learning that an extremely light touch, an essence of attention, is the way to thread this particular needle. Yes, tallis and Jim, raising the eyes less and not furrowing the brow definitely helped.
Oh, watch that brow furrowing. Nasty habit! I do it, too, and it causes tension AND wrinkles.
As for "light touch", yeah, it's funny, Yogani says repeatedly thru the lessons that "less is more", and it's true. With a lot of this stuff, the mere intention of the action is not only effective, but often more effective. If the action then quietly builds, over the course of years, after that intention is established, pretty much outside conscious effort, it's a lot more organic a progression. And if there's ever overdoing symptoms, you can always trim it back to mere intention again. The practicing of subtle intentions is itself a practice.
In any case, no strain = all gain.
quote:
My yoga experiences change my reality quicker than I am able to adjust mentally.
You and me both. Remember to always favor the practice, period. That's what gets you through the tumult. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 09:48:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I totally agree. But adjusting practices because something is distracting is very different from something being dangerous. I was pointing out to Joe that there is probably nothing to worry about.
Makes sense!
quote:
If it really isn't a major concern for worry, then why worry anyone?
I wasn't trying to strike mortal fear into his soul , just suggesting that this was a classic indication of a need to ratchet back a little....and, fortunately, sambhavi is oh-so-paceable! If my posting read alarmist, it wasn't my intention. The notion that one should self-pace only in the case of "major concern for worry" is, IMO, incorrect. But I think you'd agree with that....? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 10:56:50 AM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
I wasn't trying to strike mortal fear into his soul, just suggesting that this was a classic indication of a need to ratchet back a little....and, fortunately, sambhavi is oh-so-paceable! If my posting read alarmist, it wasn't my intention. The notion that one should self-pace only in the case of "major concern for worry" is, IMO, incorrect. But I think you'd agree with that....?
I'd agree with that.
Christi |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 12:23:26 PM
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quote:
My yoga experiences change my reality quicker than I am able to adjust mentally.
Gosh! I'll paper my walls with that one!!! Thanks! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 2:19:47 PM
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Yup. It's never boring. One quickly loses the newbie urge to figure out "how it all works". The mind can't hope to keep up. Looking backward, there may be insight, but there's always some new paradigm-upsetting shake-up just around the corner.
It's not an undertaking for those who need to feel in control, or who hope to bring their preconceptions with them. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 3:23:32 PM
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quote:
Jim Said:Yup. It's never boring. One quickly loses the newbie urge to figure out "how it all works". The mind can't hope to keep up. Looking backward, there may be insight, but there's always some new paradigm-upsetting shake-up just around the corner.
It's not an undertaking for those who need to feel in control, or who hope to bring their preconceptions with them.
Would you agree Jim that there must be "understanding" for it to be complete. Not understanding gained from "figuring things out" but from "insight" through "awareness"?
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 11:53:28 PM
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No. I've absolutely abandoned any notion that my mind can bring peace, happiness, or love.
My mind can do lots of stuff, and what it can't do, I can easily imagine training it to do. I've carefully observed minds working all my life, including mine. I see the value in the mind, for understanding, learning, analyzing and discussing. And I'm inclined to look toward it for all things, because my mind works pretty well! But I deeply, innately, see its limits. The answer ain't there. It's not a thought I could think, or a word I could speak, or a concept I could fathom. I haven't tried them all yet, but, hey, I don't have to run down every single dead end in a maze to know I'm in a maze! A mere 20,000 lifetimes of maze running has been sufficient to convince me of that. What does your bhakti tell you? |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 10 2007 12:00:21 AM |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 10:34:02 PM
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I just wanted to report that I "solved" the problem by adopting the attitude that the eye spasms were a symptom of an altered state of consciousness. I accept the energy and this allows me to relax into the technique, ignoring the eyelids as best I can. As I descend into stillness, the energy in the eyes seems to synch with my heart and gets quite intense. First the bubbling cauldron, a loudly cracking neck when I get up, soreness in the back afterwards.
Grounding, as suggested by Yogani, helps. It's a bit too cold for walking outside this time of year so I do 20+ minutes of treadmill, yoga asanas, then some weight training. The metal in the bars and weights helps ground me :-)
My "balance" consists of overdoing it, backing off, overdoing it, backing off... fortunately my body isn't shy about sending my brain feedback. I try to listen but my bhakti, for the time being, rules.
Namaste,
Joe |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2008 : 10:15:08 PM
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I received a massage today and that really helped. Afterwards the Sound of Silence was a gentle stream of sound in my ears, caressing me with its divine melody. I also saw auras around light sources for a half-hour afterwards - soft, diffused rainbow colors. Heavenly.
My love flows strongly tonight. Blessings to all.
aum namaste,
Joe |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2008 : 9:24:43 PM
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I've been slowly working my way up to being able to raise and center my eyes in sambhavi. I find I can only do this from a place of deep stillness. Maybe "I" - my ego - needs to be absent for the process to work. Usually, though, the spasms increase as I keep my intention on the practice and so I back off.
I've had experiences in the past of muscle spasms in other parts of the body that felt strong but, when I looked, could only see a slight tremor. To see how strong the eyelid spasms "really" were I placed my fingertips on my eyes while they were spasming and... nothing. The energy stopped. No spasms.
My first thought was, "Oh, great, I'm just crazy. It's all in my imagination." I repeated this test several more times over the next few days with the same result. Yesterday, however, I tried putting only a feather-light touch on the eyelids and was able to feel the movement in my fingertips.
aum namste,
Joe |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2008 : 9:08:52 PM
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Tonight as I touched my forehead to the floor in Balasana (child pose) I experienced what I can only describe as a forehead negative orgasm. That is, extreme sensual pleasure arising from my forehead but instead of a spasming genital release pleasure, it was a relaxing, receiving connecting pleasure. It was instantaneous and felt very right. I instinctively raised my eyes in sambhavi for a few seconds and experienced no eye spasms.
I tried it again tonight on the lawn in our apartment common space. The cool earth was heavenly, as was the scent of the dirt and the tickle of new grass growth. Spring. This time my eyelids spasmed. Perhaps I was self-conscious in such a public location.
The double-grounding combination of Balasana and the earth intrigues me. As it's focusing energy/attention on my Ajna chakra, hopefully it will be more productive than my disastrous crown chakra experience - which also felt very right at the time. I plan on performing an earth Balasana in the secluded mountains this weekend when I go hiking. Heck, maybe I'll make a sacred ritual of it all.
namaste,
Joe |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2008 : 07:49:27 AM
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Hey, Joe, that sounds like a lot of fun. When I lived out west, years ago, I used to hike within the mountains and enjoyed it quite a bit. Now that I live back east I go up to a lake and spend time within the evergreens. Me and a friend took our dogs a couple of days ago and are going tomorrow if I don't have to work, since I've been running around with this new position lately.
They say that being within the mountains is excellent way to really get in touch with ourselves, something to do with this ancient connection rooted within the earth. The reason why many sages live within mountains.
Anyway, keep us posted.
Namaste:
VIL |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 11:16:27 PM
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I went on a hike last weekend but didn't make a sacred ritual of it. I did today and the experience was wonderful. Sorry if this post is a bit disjointed but I know I have to post before I forget.
I began the hike by performing the Child's Pose asana at the trail head. As soon as my forehead hit the ground I felt an immediate connection, a centering pull, a feeling of rightness.
As I began the hike I was surprised to find an occasional mound of unmelted snow. The temperature was quite cool, perhaps in the low 50's. The first mile of the trail was on a wide abandoned logging trail. The ascent was mild but I was somewhat dismayed to notice my breathing laboring somewhat. I took this as a signal to slow down my already deliberate pace even more, concentrating on each step. I used the meditative technique I'd used before AYP of counting my breaths. After a hundred breaths I performed the asana, then continued the hike while I chanted one verse of the Gayatri Mantra out loud as I listened to the mantra with headphones on my mp3 player.
As I continued my climb I spontaneously started increasing the number of verses I sang incrementally by one each time. I found that the placement of both my hands on the ground while pushing myself off the ground after the asana led to a wonderful feeling in my hands. Again the connectedness to the earth and the sense of rightness, but, as my forehead was not connecting with the ground it was a stability, perhaps nobility of stature, rather than being of the earth. I noticed that when I looked at the ground with half-closed eyes I saw small pinpoints of light cascading down into the ground.
The second half of the hike was on a more traditional narrow hiking trail and the ascent was a bit steeper. As the number of mantras grew I slowed my pace even further to be able to sing the mantra with exact pronunciation. I passed wonderful little streams with magical songs of spring, an abundance of impressive moss and an increasing sense of peace. I stilled myself to listen to the wind beginning in a distant hilltop, then roar to the summit above me and pass on to other mountains. The air was heavy with mist and visibility was perhaps only 200 feet. After one asana, on my hands and knees, I noticed a subtle trembling in my body. As I concentrated on this I realized that it was my heartbeat and the aftershocks of blood coursing through my veins and arteries which was causing the vibration.
I reached the summit with a feeling of sadness but quickly let go of that as just another thought. Visibility at the top was minimal, perhaps only 50 feet. The wind was gusting at 20-30 mph. I looked up at the well-preserved fire tower, it's top almost obscured by the mist, and decided to climb. I put on the Gayatri Mantra music and began a slow ascent up the slick stairs, the handrail dripping with condensation, singing each syllable quite distinctly and with passion. I dismissed thoughts of the cold and fear as my hands numbed and continued up slowly. At the top there was a brief respite from the wind. I performed an asana, then spontaneously bobbed my head up and down, up on all fours, forehead to the floor, up and down, over and over, praying, singing, prostrating, praying, singing, prostrating... om bh#363;r bhuvah svah Om tat savitur varenyam Bhargo devasya dh#299;mahi Dhiyo yo nah prachoday#257;t Om…
I climbed slowly, deliberately back down the stairs and did the same asanas/prostration/mantra on the ground at the base of the fire tower. I finished and headed back down the trail. My head was so quiet I had no inclination or need to count and decided to skip the mantra singing. The wind roared through me and the drips of moisture off the Spruce trees splashed loudly on the pine needles.
My pace increased on the downhill slope and I reached out and lightly grabbed trees to help my balance. Again the touch felt wonderful. I stopped at one particularly beautiful little tree, perhaps five inches in diameter and twenty feet tall. I put both hands on its trunk and admired the smoothness of the bark, its nobility of stature. I hugged the tree, kissed it and told it I loved it. Again I embraced it and felt its long presence reaching up to the sky.
As I continued down thoughts slowly began to reappear and the Sound of Silence sang to me. I realized that the Silence I obtained near the summit was a state of consciousness beyond that I experience listening to the unstruck sound. I greeted this knowledge with relief because I had known that the SoS disappears as one becomes more effaced in meditative absorption. For quite a while I feared the loss of the SoS because it has become so much a part of my life. Now I know I have nothing to fear. On the far side is a transcendent state of being of the utmost subtlety.
The SoS increased to a symphony with the wind, the trickle of streams and the river, my breathing and footsteps...
By the time I reached my car thoughts had returned.
Namaste,
Joe |
Edited by - brushjw on May 04 2008 9:16:13 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2008 : 8:22:49 PM
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Hey, Joe, I'm glad you had a good time it sounded like a great adventure.
Namaste:
VIL |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 9:17:34 PM
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"Whatsoever you see around you is a fact. You see a tree, a green tree, full of sap and flowers -- it is a fact. But if you meditate and one day suddenly your eyes open, open to the real, and the tree is no more just a tree -- the green of it is nothing but God green in it, and the sap running through it is no more a physical phenomenon but something spiritual -- if one day you can see the being of the tree, the God of the tree, that the tree is only a manifestation of the divine, you have seen the truth."
Osho, Book of Wisdom Chapter 10 |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 8:58:34 PM
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From sambhavi to grounding, hiking to inner stillness, back to sambhavi.
When I first started sambhavi, I visualized my spinal column and squeezed the prana up. I liked the feeling and more is better, right? Wrong.
I found that visualizing a finger tracing it's way from my perenium, up my spine to my third eye was a good way of focusing attention while keeping the intensity level down.
For a while I was visualizing a disembodied spinal column and brain, tracing the path both in my body and in the picture in my head.
Last summer I was on the ferry, enjoying the sun and the wind and the smell of the water. I closed my eyes and lifted my head up. The wind felt like a gentle kiss from Existence. Lately I've thought of this gentle lover's breath of air while my attention goes up the spine. It is very effective at holding my attention and is very gentle.
My two hiking/niyamas experiences resulted in a deep state of inner stillness. Lying in bed afterwards I was able to raise my eyes for a time without the spasming. I have still not been able to do this in formal meditation. It seems that I will have to undergo a thorough transformation before I can progress in AYP. Thy will be done. 
namaste,
Joe |
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Eyelid Spasms During Sambhavi
