|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 04 2007 : 9:37:35 PM
|
I've been pondering something for a while and would like to get some feedback/opinions. I have several small, bronze statues that I've collected over the past few years. They represent a particular issue or theme that I was encountering at the time. Shiva represents to me the Supreme Self that we encounter in inner silence, Shiva/Shakti the union of male/female polarities, Buddha the emptiness we encounter when we give up the ego, etc. I have a cross too, and all of these are personal symbols that I've encountered on my spiritual path. I don't worship them - I simply have a deep appreciation for them as symbols of personal growth and transformation.
My sister is disturbed/offended by them. It doesn't surprise me, as she is a Christian, but it's become an issue between us. I explained what they mean to me, and that I don't worship them as idols, but she claims that there isn't a difference between idols and symbols. She may be right. I have no particular God whom I worship, except for the profound stillness that (for me) cannot be defined by any religion. It simply IS, and I (we...all of us) have a direct connection with That.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except that I'd like to hear what anyone else has to say on the subject. I'm also interested to hear if any of you have similar objects or statues, and how you regard them. Thanks for any input. |
|
|
Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2007 : 10:31:03 PM
|
Being yourself, as god created you, is worship. Symbols help remind us to be ourselves. Symbols are empty until we project a meaning that helps orient us into our self-hood.
|
Edited by - Kyman on Oct 04 2007 11:05:22 PM |
 |
|
|
weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2007 : 11:17:00 PM
|
Hi Meg,
My own personal opinion about statues or objects that represent something in life for us, is that their value is whatever value we give to them. I don't believe that they are essential in any way for our spiritual evolution, since we are spiritual beings. They serve as outer reminders, or symbols as you say, of times that are passed and help us connect back with these times, and what we experienced then. We may feel some attachment to them. There is of course nothing wrong with this. When we overcome all attachment to material things, and to our past, then we may possibly be inclined to give them away.
Regarding the issue with your sister, if she doesn't live in your house, then of course she can only give her opinion, and you keep your house as you like. If you live together, then you both have to compromise in some way. I see a difference between having symbols and idols. However, even if you did worship them as idols, you would of course be free to do so. The real issue is whether she accepts and respects your spiritual beliefs, the way you put them into practice, and what they may represent in outer form. I have often found that many Christians can have a problem with this, if they hold on to the view that there is only one valid spiritual path (theirs), and that all other are wrong. |
|
|
|
bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 04:27:23 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except that I'd like to hear what anyone else has to say on the subject. I'm also interested to hear if any of you have similar objects or statues, and how you regard them.
Interesting questions Meg. Thanks for asking.
As I was relieving my bowels this fine morning a sage answer came to me: You own some religious statuary, but having found inner silence, you are not in your heart an idolater; your sister is offended because, not grounded in that silence, she is prone to idolatry. You are strong, she is weak. You have no need of the statuary. Let them go for her sake.
I have a San Damiano cross:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Damiano_cross
I enjoy it because it reminds me of Clare of Assisi and Francis of Assisi who prayed before it -- reminds me tonight that Francis, with his stigmata, physically manifested the cross.
And I own a Holy Trinity Icon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity_Icon
It is a Christianized image of the Angels who visited the infertile Abraham and Sara and announced to them that in their old age, they were going to have a child. It reminds me of the Angel who visited me and my wife, another infertile couple, and taught me to redirect my sexual energies and in that sense, enter an Angelic life.
I usually keep both on the bookshelf, sometimes facing out for open viewing, and sometimes tucked in sideways, out of sight. They are small potatoes in symbolic weight compared to a third object I own and bandy about on my very body: a gold wedding band. I'm ambivalent about wearing it. I'd like to be rid of the object, but I keep it as a social convention.
|
Edited by - bewell on Oct 05 2007 05:53:19 AM |
|
|
|
satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 06:19:32 AM
|
hi meg,
the answer is simple. if you really love your sister grant her wish because yoga or no yoga my point of view is that we should not hurt anybody by any means like thoughts, deeds, or words, etc.
from the input given by u, u seem to be in a slightly higher state of mind than ur sister. it is hard for your sister to understand the things you explain unless she realizes them on her own. anyway since the symbols dont mean much other than appreciation i would suggest you let them go.
loka samastha sukino bavanthu |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 08:03:41 AM
|
INteresting replies. Letting go of the symbols would be a symbolic act in itself, since my sister only visits a couple times a year. I don't relish the idea of "hiding" my spirituality from her or anyone; it feels like breach in confidence against myself. I do like the idea of giving them away at the right time to someone who admires them, and will stay open to that possibility. But...gee...what would I do, stuff them in the closet? I'm going to think about this some more.
I find it interesting that my figures are seen as graven images, but the Christian cross is not. What's the difference, I wonder. Also, and not a small point, if I choose to ditch the 'idols' to ease someone else's discomfort, where does it end? My CD collection is increasingly Eastern-based. And my creative work is all about Eastern mysticism; not immediately evident, but the energy is there.
I've enjoyed your replies and hope there are more...thanks. |
|
|
|
LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 09:17:02 AM
|
Do nothing. Love your sister, ignore the complaints. Perhaps at the most when she comes to visit you could store away the icons and so avoid allowing herself to be disturbed and offended. To me at least, the idea that you should be the one to change things just because she's got a problem seems a bit weak. You wouldn't be doing her a favor. JMO.
I have many statues and icons. I have found that they are not only symbols and reminders but usually invoke a response in others. The pope could come to visit and I wouldn't move them, but that's me. I took me a while to feel confident in my spiritual life and I'm not backing down now. 
I don't think you are offending or hurting your sister in anyway by having your statues. Perhaps it is actually a spiritual opportunity for your sister to develop some tolerance?
|
|
|
|
Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 10:18:09 AM
|
This could just be a context through which sister sister relationship stuff can unfold. A difference of opinion is a difference of perspective, so this could be a way to bond. If you can figure out how to strengthen the bond, she should see from your eyes more willingly.
|
Edited by - Kyman on Oct 05 2007 11:51:22 AM |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 11:40:16 AM
|
Hi Meg
Statues and symbols can be very powerful reminders to come back to where we want to be.
When I see a statue of the Buddha I usually smile and a feeling of peace comes over me, its just the association to what it symbolises for me i.e. meditation, peace.
I brought back statues of Shiva and some other Hindu stuff about 30 years ago. They were around the house for a while and then disappeared. No doubt my Catholic mother burned them  , like she burned the little Red Book and many other materials I won't mention
I thought those days were gone!!!.
I have a garden statue of the laughing Buddha in a corner in the garden. When people look into the corner they are pleasently surprised to be greeted by the symbol of laughter and spirituality.
So I would see them as reminders to come back to ourselves, to the more refined vibrations in us.
With children in the house these items can also be a reminder to them that there is an element of divinity being acknowledged in the house. I feel this is important especially with all the opposite being fed to them on TV and the internet.
I don't like the Cross with the crusified Christ, but that's just personal - too much suffering.
Made a statue for a friend once of an empty cross mounted on a base. The base had two footprints carved into it. The footprints are representitive of "walking in the footsteps of the Buddha". The message was - the empty space in front of the cross was the same empty space as that above the footprints 
The friend was a Jesuit priest and he liked it a lot.
If we have inner silence and see a symbol or statue that has meaning for us, one could say that an element of samyama could be occuring when we see it - just a thought
|
Edited by - Sparkle on Oct 05 2007 11:43:27 AM |
|
|
|
Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 11:48:14 AM
|
Hi Meg
I looked up the word "idol" and it is related to "ideal"; "the idea of something that is perfect; something that one hopes to attain". Of course if you had a grinning, skull-bedecked Kali, your sister may not think her as an ideal to attain. Hindu symbols are difficult to explain to many who come from a Western, Christian kind of background. You could compare the Catholic idolatry, there appear to be some parallels. I have an issue at my home about a big, beautiful Kali bronze that a good friend gave to me. My girlfriend doesn't like looking at her. I'll have to keep the ideal in my heart and will give the statue to my sister for her birthday. She will give her a fine home If I were in your shoes I would probably keep the things that I like to have around and look at, considering your sister only visits rarely. |
Edited by - Balance on Oct 05 2007 12:24:11 PM |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2007 : 1:39:19 PM
|
Meg, ask her 'if there is no difference between idolatry and symbolism, what is wrong with idolatry?'.
What is idolatry? Is it just turning religious attention away from the jealous, insecure, narcissistic tribal god-chief that is some people's God?
Daddy won't tolerate anything that he has to compete with for his affection, will he? So he demonizes anything that he has to compete with. No other Daddy but our Daddy. No other Chief but our Chief. No other Tribe but our Tribe. Amen.
Tell that Daddy to buzz off and go into therapy. He's a ghost from the trauma of life in the Middle East under cruel, narcissistic, manipulative desert-kings. He doesn't belong in your spiritual life, telling you not to have statues of anyone but him.
|
|
|
|
glagbo
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2007 : 01:36:28 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
If we have inner silence and see a symbol or statue that has meaning for us, one could say that an element of samyama could be occuring when we see it - just a thought
I could not agree more. I was going to post my reply along this exact line.
May be "Stillness in Action", the fruition of Samyama, is actually a continuously looping samyama between Inner Silence, "observation", and the "perceived with meaning"?
Just some thoughts.
Meg, I say keep the icons. They are your toys, your souvenirs of the journey.
It is said that the only "possession" Guru Dev "had" was a Shri Yantra made of precious stone and gifted to him by some disciple.
Peace.
B.R.V. |
|
|
|
Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2007 : 10:25:28 AM
|
There was a time, if I knew something in my altar would hurt someone.. my ego would say either say.. "hey.. who is s/he to decide what I can and cannot have in my house".. or .. "Oh let me put it away.. is it worth the fuss it would create?".. or "I better hide these for a few days.. hey what harm is there if I can make someone happy by being the person s/he wants me to be for a few days".. Please note.. all of the above are ego driven statements.. and depending on who was objecting, my ego responses would change . What is the right thing to do.. No clue Meg. That is something you need to figure out for yourself. Depending on the attachment you have for the idols and your sister and your peace of mind.. you could either decide "not worth the fuss".. or "my house I decide". Or go into silence and ask your inner guru for guidance.. no thing is too small or too big to find a peaceful answer from within.
Couple of things...
Firstly, do what feels the most comfortable to you.. because finally you want to be in peace. There is no right and wrong here.. Right and wrong are perceptions of the ego.. so do what feels peaceful.. and don't attach to it.. if it flows one way today.. and another way tomorrow.. as long as you are in peace.. you are not fighting an inner battle.. you are fine.
Secondly, remember.. she will put up a fuss.. and You don't have to explain anything to her or identify with her story. Just tell her they are pieces of art that you were inspired to buy.. and leave it at that. She may complain a few times.. but it will soon become a part of the furniture. The more importance you give something.. the more energy it picks up.. just let it be.. and soon it will be forgotten... Don't be rude and make a fuss yourself.. give some lame excuse and let it go.. every time she picks up the topic.. change it very politely so she gets you don't want to talk about it.. if she insists.. tell her you really don't feel like discussing it.. its just there.. and it means nothing more than art to you.. If you put up an argument.. "hey my house my way".. "my belief" etc.. it then becomes a battle of egos.. if you drop your ego.. hers wont be able to dance too long on its own.. When you don't get defensive.. her ego will just flow through you.. instead of bouncing back.. and when that happens.. even if it takes a bit of time.. it (her ego) wont have much to go on..
When you give up the attachment to the idols and to the your sister's story and to your own ego story.. what is left, is what the answer is.. and only your own silence will give you an answer to that.
I hope this helps:). |
Edited by - Shanti on Oct 06 2007 10:33:24 AM |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2007 : 8:07:35 PM
|
Thanks for the great input. I see that there's no right or wrong way to handle this - it all depends on my relationship to both the symbol and the sister. She and I are extremely close, and I wouldn't hurt her for the world. But the dynamic between us is such that I, the youngest sibling, have always faithfully hidden my 'errant ways' in order to keep peace in the family. I simply want to feel free to relax and be myself, especially in my own home, and especially with my sisters. As Little Turtle pointed out, it may be good for her to learn to tolerate the 'graven images'.
BUT...I'm willing to compromise. If they truly disturb her, then when she cometh to visit, I can put them in the closet. Not doing so becomes an ego thing, which is just stupid. Then when she's gone I'll yank 'em out again, which is also stupid, but then at least she'll come visit. I can hide all of Yogani's books as well, just to be safe. :)
quote:
Originally posted by weaver
When we overcome all attachment to material things, and to our past, then we may possibly be inclined to give them away.
This is a good thought. I'm inclined to give them away, if someone should admire one of them. I'm not that attached to them; I simply find them beautiful, and they speak to my heart. I have a friend who had a necklace that I loved, and every time she wore it, I expressed how much I liked it. One time when I was admiring it, she took it off her neck and put it on mine. I was embarrassed and asked if she didn't still like it herself. She said that she loved it, but had enjoyed it for many years, and since I always commented on it, she wanted me to have it. It was a simple gesture, but meant so much to me. I'd love to hand off my statues in a similar way. |
|
|
|
satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2007 : 06:05:02 AM
|
hi meg,
i think you have just found the answer, great going!! |
|
|
|
enlightenmealready
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2007 : 12:10:07 PM
|
Meg,
I still think you should leave them out. Not for any ego based reason, at least not yours. Every time your sister sees these icons, she is forced to reconcile the fact that here perfectly wonderful sister is an idol worshiper. It causes her discomfort because it requires her to reevaluate the tenets of her belief system. Growth is always uncomfortable. I think hiding your icons is actually a disservice to your sister. You wont be leaving them out to make a point. They simply are there because they are. I think staying true to yourself is always the right answer.
In seventh grade I was taught that living in a capitalist society is wonderful because the system is inherently classless. We were of course regaled with rags to riches stories that emphasized the point. We were then taught that even though the system allowed for setting your own destiny, family still proved to be a strong inertial force that would keep you in what ever demographic you were born into.
I'm not trying to argue about the merits of capitalism, however I believe the lesson about familial inertia is true. Pressure from family is often one of the strongest forces to overcome, whether it be in terms of social class or spiritual growth. The puzzle for us is tricky. How do we refuse to let our spiritual growth be defined by our family without getting our ego involved? I have yet to figure it out, but I truly believe it start with being yourself and refusing to be offended when people judge you harshly. |
|
|
|
Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2007 : 11:32:51 AM
|
| Very simple. does your sister have any crucifix in her home? Same thing as far as I can see.An image is an image |
|
|
|
thimus
53 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2007 : 2:08:49 PM
|
About intollerance : when I was about 10 years old (early in the sixties), the little town I lived
in with my family was roman catholic. One day we had new neighbours with also little children : protestants! They were shunned by everybody : I still dont who they were, know nothing about them ! After half a year or a year they were gone.
Islam is intollerant : who says so ? We christians. We are tollerant? I dont think so.
Put away them beautifull statues and say “yes” to intollerance? Not me. No way. Krishna, Buddha, Mary and Christ are here in the same room and they stay there.
|
|
|
|
Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2007 : 04:43:07 AM
|
| Its better to worship idols in your room, while knowing that God is everywhere (even in a piece of metal), than to have idols in the mind and heart thinking "God is that form, God is that name" - that is the real idolatry. The Omnipresent doesn't have any form, but can take any form. The Indescribable doesn't have any names, and all names are Hers. The people who are prone to real idolatry are the same ones that will prefer one statue to another and one name to others, such people do not have true faith but pretend to be religious because it suits their cultural and social needs. |
Edited by - Chiron on Oct 17 2007 06:43:33 AM |
|
|
|
rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2007 : 1:47:15 PM
|
GOD is infinite and the mind is finite. We are told that no word, symbol or idol can express the GOD. The moment we express it, it becomes finite and is not the whole.
But, still the idols/symbols etc help to remind us of that infinite which is ever present. I realized that it is very difficult to comprehend an infinite GOD without any symbol or something else that the mind can relate with. We have lot of other symbols for several other things in our life. We have the national flag which represents our nation. We proudly carry it and display it. The flag is just a cloth, but it does reminds us of our nation and so are the idols that remind us of the ultimate truth. So, I feel that idols are also symbols pointing to something else.
If idols/symbols help me in my spiritual path, I would not give them up because some one else is offended. Every one has to learn tolerance. We should respect others beliefs. At the same time, we don't have to sacrifice our beliefs because others do not like or respect our beliefs. Doing it may not be tolerance but weakness in my opinion. |
Edited by - rkishan on Oct 22 2007 1:53:04 PM |
|
|
|
rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2007 : 2:26:55 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Firstly, do what feels the most comfortable to you.. because finally you want to be in peace. There is no right and wrong here.. Right and wrong are perceptions of the ego.. so do what feels peaceful.. and don't attach to it.. if it flows one way today.. and another way tomorrow.. as long as you are in peace.. you are not fighting an inner battle.. you are fine.[/br]
I do not agree with this line of reasoning. I agree that right and wrong are just perceptions of our own mind or the ego, but I do not agree that we should do what we feel is most comfortable to us. Right and wrong are very important and they should guide our day to day lives. To say right and wrong are our own perceptions is highest level of philosophy when it comes to actual life. It should not be used casually to make a point in my opinion.
I read a lot of books when I was very young and concluded that right and wrong are just my perceptions and I should do what I feel is comfortable for me. This took me on a destructive spiral on my life. It took me several more years to come out of this destructive cycle. Here is an example. If we were to say that right and wrong are only our minds perceptions, then it would be ok to smoke a cigarette. Since it is just our perception that smoking is injurious and it sure does make a lot of people comfortable when they inhale it. And it is ok to smoke in the true sense, or do anything else for that matter. But it does harm our body. But that is ok too. You might get lung cancer. We can also say that "To think that lung cancer is bad, is also just my minds perception", I should "just be" and stay on the present moment. We could go through all this misery and die of cancer. But again misery death is just our mind's perception.
So, to argue for any point saying that "Right or wrong is just our own perception and we should do what feel comfortable" is not very useful for actual life in my opinion, and it could be destructive in many cases. May be this line of reasoning is useful to the realized people who have attained enlightenment or to the highest yogis who are on the path of Jnana yoga. I will not use this line of reasoning with anyone or to make any point even though I clearly understand that right and wrong are my own imaginations. Right and Wrong are very essential to the day to day life in my opinion. And the question from this topic is about doing something practical in day to day life. |
Edited by - rkishan on Oct 22 2007 2:39:12 PM |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
symbolism vs. idolatry
