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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 10:41:27 AM
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Hi everyone. I found a meditation group that I really like, with great people and a meditation that's similar enough to AYP. Mostly I like being with others to meditate once a week. We med. for 15 minutes, talk about our practices, med. for another 20 min., talk some more, then do a final 20 min. med. There's one problem that I can't get around: while we meditate, the leader of the group plays music.  While we're talking the music is off, but once we start, she hand picks a song, and it's lively, new agey kind of stuff - NOT ambient background music. Think Enya.  I simply cannot sink into the med. while it's playing, and by the end of it I'm usually really frustrated and even angry. I talked to her about it, and she said that I should stay with my frustration/anger and see what it's about, as it may well lead me somewhere important. Probably sage advice, but nonetheless, the music drives me nuts. I'm thinking that this group isn't for me. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this...if there's any benefit to piping music into your head during med., or if there's something to be gained by sticking with a practice that's so annoying. Oddly enough, the noises of the street and neighbors don't bother me in the least - it's just the intentional noise that keeps me on the surface during med. Thanks for any comments. |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 11:30:47 AM
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quote:
I'm thinking that this group isn't for me. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this...if there's any benefit to piping music into your head during med., or if there's something to be gained by sticking with a practice that's so annoying. Oddly enough, the noises of the street and neighbors don't bother me in the least - it's just the intentional noise that keeps me on the surface during med. Thanks for any comments.
Well it certainly wouldn't be right for me Meg having Enya pumped into my head during med just wouldn't work for me. I suppose learning to disregard it could be good practice but you already aren't bothered by the usual outside distractions, personally (and this is only my opinion) this sort of practice doesnt seem to fit in with AYP at all.  |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 12:01:00 PM
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Hi Meg
I also like meditating in a group and enjoy the social aspect of being with like minded people.
I would guess you are not looking to replace the AYP system with this but are doing it for the social interaction?
With this in mind I thing the leader is correct in what she says about having to deal with what is coming up around the music.
To my mind it would also depend how you are doing generally with sustained inner silence and whether there are other issues coming up for you. If life is a bitch then anything like that is going to agrivate.
I sometimes attend a gathering on a Friday evening where they play soft music to the meditation. I have to admit I don't even hear it after a few minutes.
Do you ever use samyama to dissolve such conflicts?
Louis |
Edited by - Sparkle on Aug 10 2007 12:02:23 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 4:25:18 PM
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Hi meg,
I am curious as to what the leader of your group, what her concept of meditation is and what the purpose of the music is?
It would make a lot more sense to me to play the enya music during the socializing, don't you think?
To me, meditation is practice so ideally you want as few distractions as possible so you can go within more easily.
By the same token, if you can ignore the street sounds you could put the music into the same catagory in your mind (irrelavent background noise) and then maybe you won't resist it so much.
But I don't get it either.
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Aug 10 2007 9:58:09 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 9:17:59 PM
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I agree with you, YB. It's like pinching someone throughout their meditation, while telling them to try to get around it. Wouldn't it be easier for them to just stop the pinching? I guess that's why I was interested in hearing what others had to say. Maybe there IS some benefit to becoming completely annoyed and having to sit with it.
Louis - that's correct - I'm seeking social interaction more than another form meditation. I'm rather isolated, so it seems a good way to interact and connect on a meaningful level. I'm not sure how I'd go about using samyama in this situation; maybe you can explain that. I do try to breathe deeply to disperse the annoyance, but instead it tends to fan the flames. :( The thing about this kind of music is that it's so emotion-based, and tends to suck me into nostalgic feelings, which (for me) are antagonistic to meditation. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 11:15:51 PM
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Hi Meg,
As you find, it can be rewarding to participate in a meditation group for social interaction as well as the practices themselves. If I was in a meditation group and they didn't do silent meditation in relative silence (= without purposely added sounds like music) like we do in AYP, then I wouldn't use the sessions for AYP meditation either. Meditation is such a broad concept. Many see meditation as guided "meditation" where someone says aloud what you are to imagine. It seems like the leader of your group and maybe others see meditation in a different way than you do, and not as deep meditation.
I any case, if you did AYP meditation during all the sessions 15+20+20 minutes, that would result in overdoing. Maybe you could use the sessions for contemplation instead? |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 07:55:36 AM
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Hi Meg
quote:
I'm not sure how I'd go about using samyama in this situation; maybe you can explain that.
Well Meg the way I would approach it would be to look at all the triggers involved, the group leader's attitude, the emotive music etc.. Then choose a word or a phrase that would represent that feeling/annoyance.
Then in normal meditation (not in the group), after the usual nine sutras I would enter that phrase or word and let it go into the silence.
Often, if something is very emotive and deep the reaction would be quite strong. In fact I have been amazed when I say the phrase or word, it would not in itself provoke a reaction, but on letting it go into the silence suddenly my whole body reacts with the feeling of the silence eating away and disolving the emotive distortion in my energy.
Anyway, that's been my experience and I'm having good fun with it.
Another approach of course would be the Katie approach, perhaps someone more qualified could comment on this.
Wish you luck and would be interested to hear how you get on, if you try it.
All the best
Louis |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 11:14:54 AM
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Hi Meg,
Well my group meditates weekly to the Divine Sound recorded by guruji but it is designed too induce deeper levels of meditation so the resonance is correct.Unfortunately not all sound is good for you and this is why some music affects things like driving.I find listening to classical music while driving is relaxing but is not indusive to falling asleep, on the other hand loud head banging music would probably give me road rage.Anything that interferes with the meditation process IMHO is counter productive and is not helping your progress.
L&L
Dave |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 12:14:13 PM
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| Homicide or wire cutters are your only hope. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 2:18:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Homicide or wire cutters are your only hope.
That's actually encouraging, as I'd considered both. I'm really not inclined to adapt to the music, and not just because it's Enya. It just seems so counter-intuitive. So if I want to continue with this great group of people, I'll have to come up with some alternative type of med. to do during the 'concert'. Thanks for that suggestion, Weaver - it's a good one. Any suggestions on what I might do? Maybe it would be a great time to practice the samyama that Louis suggested, when the irritation is in its fullest bloom. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 3:04:06 PM
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| I've got it. Do adyashanti style "being present". Consider the noxious tinkly new age music friction to work against (how deep is your love?). Make a practice of it. |
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Tam Phap
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 6:05:43 PM
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Hi Meg,
I have facilitated meditation groups for a long time and I have never considered playing any type of music during sitting meditation. Also, in my experience with other groups, there has never been music played during the session. I have always considered that a relatively quiet environment is optimum, particularly when there are folks in the group who are new to meditation and who may have a problem just settling into concentration on their breath, gatha (or whatever). In my own sitting, I have occasionally used a Tibetan bells CD (Himalaya by Deuter), which I find wonderful to meditate with. I should mention that I have been involved in sitting meditation practice for many years and that could be the reason that it doesn't affect my concentration.
As for looking inward to see why it is bothering you... well, this is also a good practice, but I believe this kind of introspection should be carried out after a long-term, stable practice has been developed. I also think it is curious that you discuss things after each meditation sitting. Again, it is my experience that it is best to ease into a social time after all meditative sessions have been completed. If you'd like to see how our group session goes, check out our site at www.sookemeditation.org
Personally, I think you should perhaps look for a different group to sit with. Having a Sangha to sit with is wonderful, but if it's not working for you, I suggest you go with your instinct and see what other groups are in your community.
Best wishes,
Phil |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 7:35:54 PM
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Meg,
I simply cannot sink into the med. while it's playing, and by the end of it I'm usually really frustrated and even angry. I talked to her about it, and she said that I should stay with my frustration/anger and see what it's about, as it may well lead me somewhere important.
Yes. Yes. One of the reasons you find it frustrating is that mantra yoga (AYP style) and music just don't go together; music is not appropriate for mantra yoga, period. They are mutually contradictory in their effects; music, by its nature, pulls your mind (and your emotions) to it. In mantra yoga, the mind is pulled inward towards the silence.
I think it's very likely unfortunately that she does not go deeply into silence herself when she meditates. So she gets a certain kick out of the music instead.
Ask her if she is open to the possibility that her use of music is a mistake. The fact is that most people experienced in meditation understand it to be so. That goes across the board -- zen meditation, yoga, various kinds of buddhist meditations. There is a place for chanting and other such things, but the energy of silent meditation and music just don't go together.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 8:18:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
One of the reasons you find it frustrating is that mantra yoga (AYP style) and music just don't go together; music is not appropriate for mantra yoga, period. They are mutually contradictory in their effects; music, by its nature, pulls your mind (and your emotions) to it. In mantra yoga, the mind is pulled inward towards the silence.
Right! Thanks for pointing that out, David. I just realized that that's why I get so frustrated, and my frustration quickly turns to anger. I'm trying to move inward, but the music is preventing me from doing so by pulling me outward. The teacher is very attached to the music, and I can tell she will not budge on it (and why should she? Everyone else seems to enjoy it, as there are many music requests come meditation time...)
Phil, I appreciate your suggestion to look for another group. It's probably what I'll end up doing. Too bad, as I enjoy the companionship of the group. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 8:57:01 PM
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Meg, how about getting phone numbers and going, like, bowling with these guys? Or show up at end of session for drinks/bites?
As for "staying with your frustration/anger".....look, I'm a big advocate for letting the external environment be whatever it is when meditating, and not insisting on the perfect cushion next to the perfect lovely stream and everybody walking on tiptoes around you. I guess if I were truly consistent, I'd shrug off even extreme external factors, e.g. marine drill sergeants screaming abuse at me from close range while I meditate.
But I'm not that extreme. And unless this group leader is ready to meditate in a swamp full of hungry mosquitos and stay with HER frustration/anger and "see what it's about", I think her suggestion to you is just an annoying new agey platitude.
Music is designed, intrinsically, to draw one's attention (last thing a meditator needs). Maybe less so that tinkly awful new age stuff, which is designed to be more like wallpaper. But if you're any sort of music lover - or simply have an iota of artistic sensibility - the music will draw your attention. And if it's tinkly crap, so much the worse. And if this is all happening when you're trying to go inward....the only word is ARGH.
Why not watch DVD's while meditating? Sounds silly, but, really, what's the diff? Meditation (not just mantra meditation....ALL meditation) is about directing the senses inward, not hooking them into external stimulii. Patanjali, to name just one, is explicit on this, though it strikes me as a "duh" not even worth stating.
Also, if you want to ponder your irritation, do so while jogging or something. Meditation is not the setting for "working out issues".
My two cents, anyway.... |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 11 2007 9:00:47 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 11:23:12 PM
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I agree with everything people have said above.
The problem is that working through the anger and frustration is great emotional work, but it is not meditation. you could do that kind of work all day long while not meditating. It makes the other people feel good because they need that kind of emotional work, and don't understand what meditation is about.
BTW; Enya is not tinkly. It's like great colorful manmade plastic sculptures.
I heard Enya was coming out with a new album with a bad boy beat, called
"Enya FACE!" ha ha lol
Yes I would recommend isolating socializing and meditation unless you find the right group.
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Edited by - Etherfish on Aug 11 2007 11:25:49 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2007 : 08:05:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I heard Enya was coming out with a new album with a bad boy beat, called
"Enya FACE!" ha ha lol
Thanks for the morning laugh, Ether. I didn't realize that there were so many Enyaphobes here. The only thing I can say about working with my frustration/anger is that the music/meditation really brings it up for me, to the point that I'm just sitting there stewing in it. There's nothing else in my life that gets me so prickly at the moment. So I could secretly use the hour to do some personal inquiry into the anger, and all that it brings up. Not even try to meditate. I suppose I could also buy Enya's new album and accomplish the same thing. There's something weird about it,though...like picking a fight with someone just so you can examine your anger. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2007 : 08:37:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg So I could secretly use the hour to do some personal inquiry into the anger, and all that it brings up. Not even try to meditate.
That's pretty identical to my suggestion, above, to do Adyashanti-style "being present".
The other thing is the "discussing what happened" part with this group. Experiences (which are rarely - if ever - of spiritual importance) are contagious. And people get, by turns, boastful and envious. I can't imagine why this would be a good thing. There've got to be better ways to socialize than to challenge your irritibility point for an hour and then hear about what Jesus Christ just told Heather. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 12 2007 08:38:35 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2007 : 2:28:09 PM
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Hi Meg,
If she is so intent on music may I suggest you direct her to listening to the Divine Sound as it does bring about deep meditation and is not simply ´new age´music.Look for the sample on ww.omdasji.com
L&L
Dave |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2007 : 2:47:06 PM
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Meg said: quote:
Maybe it would be a great time to practice the samyama that Louis suggested, when the irritation is in its fullest bloom.
No I don't think that's it Meg. As you know the first requirement of samyama is inner silence. The greater the inner silence the more effective the samyama. so this would be something to be carried out in your normal samyama routine.
Personally I would'nt right off a good social setting so easily. I attend two others besides our AYP group and find it very nourishing. Some people might say I'm sad because I have let my other social avenues fall away in favour of being with like minded people.
I think labeling people as "new agey" is not helpful either. If you resonate with these people, which clearly you do, then it seems worthwhile to as least investigate the possibility of being able to sit with them in peace and silence.
I believe this is possible for anyone, it just depend on how much you want it.
I came across a chap on a forum a couple of years ago who used all sorts of music as his sole means of meditation. He described how he became the drum beat, the guitar, the rhytme and how he just melted into the music and went really really deep. He was obviously tuned into this from the start, but it shows the possibilities.
I agree that mantra meditation is probably not suitable for this group. The zen type awareness meditation sounds more like it, as Jim suggested further up.
Ultimately this is about you and your irritation. If you are irritated about not being able to go into inner silence then this is the edge you work with - this irritation about not going inward. If you sit with this and let it go, over and over, you might find yourself relaxing and going deeper. (Or as Jim suggested in another thread, love it and keep loving it). Then you might find a new edge to work with, let this go, and so on.
I agree with Dave that a suggestion for an alternative type of music, like you juat happened to bring along this CD. Which could be the Divine Sound or one of Kirtanmans's suggestions
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=2739#2739
Cheers
Louis
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2007 : 10:31:07 PM
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Doesn't sound like they would be open to other music.
I think the leader has an ego thing going- something emotional happened in her "meditations" and she wants everyone else to get there, and she's maybe charismatic.
It might be fun to just do the emotional work there to get rid of eny anger you have, and then during the discussion mention the emotional progress you are making, and keep ending your summary with a hint that you can't get the peace you usually do in silent meditation, but
you are making some emotional progress with that album.
maybe say you are anxious to work through all the discomfort enya's music brings, and maybe start working on some other music you don't like. Ask if anyone has suggestions of what might be the next one to work on.
Then when they say "No Enya is the key to peace", you say
"No, you told me to work through my emotional issues about Enya, but I still have emotional issues about other music!" |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2007 : 12:29:01 PM
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Meg, I the situation is fairly simple in a way: that doesn't seem to be a suitable setting for mantra yoga (AYP Deep Meditation) for you, ironically because the mantra yoga works well for you, and does pull you towards the silence, with which the music competes; if you never went deep with the meditation, the music would probably not bother you.
It doesn't mean that you can't practice some other sort of meditation with them there and then. So you still have choices. I'd still do mantra yoga, though, just at a different time of day.
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music during meditation
