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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 26 2007 : 1:44:57 PM
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| My understanding is when the air flows dominantly through one of the nostrils, the energy is in either ida or pingala. And when it flows equally the energy is through sushumna. Now for kundalini the energy should be flowing through sushumna, correct? But in kechari stage 4 we block one of the nostrils, that doesn't look ideal for spinal breathing pranayama as we want the energy through sushumna. So my question is when do you use kechari stage 4? Do you use it for anulom-vilom pranayama(alternate nostril breathing) only? I find it hard to switch the tongue fast from one nostril to the other with every breath. |
Edited by - gentlep on Jul 26 2007 3:49:44 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2007 : 5:04:19 PM
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Hi gentlep,
I have often wondered the same thing about the lack of symmetrical stimulation in stage 4. Sometimes without breath control I practice just pushing my tongue up as high as it will go towards the olfactory bulb which is maybe another inch above where Yogani's stage 4 diagram shows the tongue stopping.
The two olfactory bulbs are the physical counterparts of the origins of ida and pingala as best I can tell from what I have read on the subject without actual direct perception of the energy channels on my part.
I can tell you what I do as far as tongue switching goes. I do the alternate breathing and hold my breath while switching the tongue from side to side.
The traditional rhythm is 1:4:2.
Hope that helps.
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Jul 26 2007 7:17:03 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2007 : 02:46:40 AM
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| I would agree that alternate nostril breathing using the tongue to regulate rather than the fingers would be the appropriate practice for stage 4 kechari. There is one one other much more extreme option. I know of a couple of people (not yogis) who have actually split the tip of their tongues as an extention of body piercing. their tongue now has a forked tip. When I first saw this I thought about its implications for kechari but to date have never met anyone who has tried it in this way though I suspect thatthere may be some yogic precedent for it |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2007 : 3:35:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
I would agree that alternate nostril breathing using the tongue to regulate rather than the fingers would be the appropriate practice for stage 4 kechari.
AYP doesn't have alternate nostril breathing as a practice. So when do you use kechari stage 4. Do you do it outside AYP? |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2007 : 5:58:08 PM
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Hi gentlep,
I found this thread and this is a quote from Yogani:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/post.a...&FORUM_ID=15
quote:
But it is not that big a deal really. After 20 years of playing with kechari, I stay mostly around the septum -- the "secret spot," and use stage 4 (into the nostrils) sometimes for alternate nostril breathing from the inside when doing chin pump. It can be used that way with any form of pranayama, including spinal breathing. But be careful not to overdo it. Once ecstatic conductivity is coming up, less can be more.
Also found this:
quote:
Note: In the AYP Book, additional information to this lesson is provided on nadi shodana pranayama (alternate nostril breathing) and its relationship to spinal breathing.
Lesson 41 - Pranayama – Spinal Breathing
And this:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1288
quote:
As mentioned in lesson 108, pranayama can be done with alternate nostrils from the inside using stage 4 kechari. It's is not something to jump into on a whim, as it is very powerful, a whole new level of practice involving long term acclimation and self-pacing. Stage 4 kechari can also be used in alternate nostrils during successive kumbhakas in yoni mudra, chin pump and/or yoni chin pump. It is not advised until stability in stage 2-3 kechari is mastered during sitting practices -- which can also take a long time. And, of course, any practice we consider adding kechari to needs to be well established and stable beforehand. There is only so much the nervous system can be absorbing at once. That is why we always go step-by-step in AYP.
And this, too:
http://www.aypsite.org/108.html
quote:
Once the nasal passages have been entered, the tongue can be used to
do "alternate passage" breathing during pranayama and yoni mudra
kumbhaka. This provides alternating stimulation in the nasal
passages, which produces additional purifying effects in the
sushumna, ida, and pingala. Our pranayama and kumbhaka become
supercharged in stage 4 kechari.
Hope that helps.
Best, yb
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Edited by - yogibear on Jul 30 2007 10:46:06 PM |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2007 : 12:24:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
Hi gentlep,
I found this thread and this is a quote from Yogani:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/post.a...&FORUM_ID=15
quote:
But it is not that big a deal really. After 20 years of playing with kechari, I stay mostly around the septum -- the "secret spot," and use stage 4 (into the nostrils) sometimes for alternate nostril breathing from the inside when doing chin pump. It can be used that way with any form of pranayama, including spinal breathing. But be careful not to overdo it. Once ecstatic conductivity is coming up, less can be more.
That brings back my original question. How can it be used in spinal breathing? Would you do one round of inhalation-exhalation with one nostril breathing and then the other? Do you have to have to have equal number of inhalation exhalation through each nostril? Won't that make the energy flow through ida and pingala only? |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2007 : 1:05:32 PM
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Hi Gentlep:
The purpose of alternate nostril breathing is to stimulate and balance the energies (left and right), which leads to calmness in the center (spinal nerve/sushumna).
Alternate nostril breathing (nadi shodana or anulom vilom) is not critical in terms of counting, timing, etc. It is not that exact, though some into Swara Yoga might take issue. In AYP we don't use alternate nostril breathing, but do respect its prominence, as discussed in an addition to Lesson 41 in the AYP Easy Lessons book. Spinal breathing pranayama without nostril alternation is more than adequate to get the job done. Alternate nostril breathing does happen to be compatible with kechari stage 4, so we can use it there to the degree desired, but this is not regarded as core practice in AYP.
Long before we are playing around with kechari stage 4, we should consider if we have stabilized our practice in deep meditation, spinal breathing pranayama, asanas, mudras (with kechari stage 1 or 2 being plenty), bandhas, samyama, and the application of tantric sexual principles. There is plenty that will be good to put in place before it will be necessary to go deep into kechari stage 4. In fact, kechari stage 4 will not be necessary at all for many people. It is not a prerequisite for enlightenment. 
But to answer your basic question, some techniques attempt to quiet the center by directly stimulating and balancing the surrounding energy channels. Alternate nostril breathing is one of those. There are many ways to skin the cat, some more reliable and deeper reaching than others. We will know what works for us as we continue with our daily practices long term.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2007 : 1:04:57 PM
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| Thanks yogani for the clarification. As you mentioned alternate nostril breathing with kechari 4 is not part of ayp and can be used outside of practice, can it be used during the day? e.g. while driving the car, waiting or in a meeting etc. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2007 : 1:31:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
Thanks yogani for the clarification. As you mentioned alternate nostril breathing with kechari 4 is not part of ayp and can be used outside of practice, can it be used during the day? e.g. while driving the car, waiting or in a meeting etc.
Hi Gentlep:
It is part of AYP, but not a "core practice" like deep meditation, basic spinal breathing, asanas, etc.
It is up to the practitioner if and when to use kechari stage 4 alternate nostril breathing. From the AYP point of view, it is not recommended until core practices are well-established for months or years. The idea is to have a stable daily routine of practices that we can stay with for the long term. That is what will bring real progress. Up and down adventures with any particular practice are not going to make much difference in our long term progress.
It is okay to experiment. But let's not make the mistake of calling that practice. Practice is what we have been doing steadily daily for months and years, with self-pacing as needed, of course. 
The guru is in you.
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2008 : 11:19:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
I would agree that alternate nostril breathing using the tongue to regulate rather than the fingers would be the appropriate practice for stage 4 kechari. There is one one other much more extreme option. I know of a couple of people (not yogis) who have actually split the tip of their tongues as an extention of body piercing. their tongue now has a forked tip. When I first saw this I thought about its implications for kechari but to date have never met anyone who has tried it in this way though I suspect thatthere may be some yogic precedent for it
I would like a further discussion, on the splitting of the tongue. I think the people of this forum, are mature enough to discuss this. |
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kechari stage 4 and sushumna
