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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 05 2007 : 12:26:56 PM
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First I wrote "speed your path to enlightenment" as a subject then I remembered how misleading it is to think of enlightenment as somewhere you need to get to or some kind of destination. It most certainly isn't, it is realizing the self, awareness of being in the here and now and staying with it, then the light comes.
Anyway, a while back I became aware of the fact that our greatest impediment to enlightenment is ourselves. Of course in hindsight, what could oppose God other than God? So we impede ourselves, with our fears, with reluctance of what we think we will lose if we let it all go. Of course we all have our individual and unique perspective and this is in context to my individualized perspective, but find the words or meaning that work for you with the above ideas.
So try this little exercise, make a list of everything you are afraid won't happen in your life. Then make a list of everything you think will happen in your life. Then make a list of what you think you will lose if you were to reach enlightenment (insert whatever word you use here: surrender, oneness, ego-death etc.) See what you come up with, it might surprise you if you are honest and willing to look at the answers. I would suggest these are your biggest road-blocks to full unwavering self-realization. Is this not worth a little work??? At the very minimum you get to know yourself a little better <- any self-realization is worth it!
Does the idea of enlightenment or completely surrendering or giving it all up scare you in some way? Does it threaten you in some deep and subtle or not so subtle way? Find it and ask your self if it is absolutely true that what you are afraid might happen will for certain come to pass.
Most of all enjoy the process.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 12:48:20 PM
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"So we impede ourselves, with our fears, with reluctance of what we think we will lose if we let it all go. - - - Does the idea of enlightenment or completely surrendering or giving it all up scare you in some way?"
I see that this might be a great exercise for persons who still like life and what the ego is experiencing here, the "greedy" ones that haven't had enough yet, that have things they still cling to. Would it work also for someone like me who is "hateful" or would I perhaps have to ask other questions?
I do not want to stay in this life, and I am afraid the world will be the same when I get enlightened. "Before enlightenment you chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment you chop wood and carry water." and "All that is profane will become sacred again" gives a hint of that being a matter of fact.
It's like I have been starting to get an idea that it will be the same, but luckily "I" don't have to be here and suffer, cause "I" will be gone (thank god). Then this terrible life can go on as usual and that scenario scares me. That this earth is not really more beautiful than that and will not become more beautiful either despite of an increased consciousness in more and more people. There is nothing that gives me the impression that earth will become a nicer place when more people get enlightened. I have seen a few realized persons now (Byron Katie being the latest one) and they astonish me by still being just as judgemental (expressing likes and dislikes) and conforming to the norms just as anyone else, which equals (in my mind) continuing to create pain in the world! As if the stillness in action wants exactly what our mindmade norms have created. No difference (which is logical, since WE ARE THAT all the time, so even the mindcreated world is THAT). That's how life is. That's how our tivoli is. No more no less. I just feel I never, never, ever want to come back here and manifest again.
"make a list of everything you think will happen in your life"
For me it would be: "... of everything you fear is not going to happen" and then question "Can you really know that is true?". The answer would of course be no. Then I'd just have to hope that "me" dissolving will do the trick of getting me out of here and let love, light and joy (whatever that is, I don't know anylonger) BE instead. Strangely, that has been my wish all my life. I've had this weird death wish under the surface since I was a kid and the possibility of suicide has been my only comfort. Killing the ego is the ultimate suicide, so I am so grateful it has started to happen. But from that angle what would speed up my path?
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Edited by - emc on Jul 09 2007 12:59:01 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 1:04:46 PM
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Hi Emc,
Wow you sound like you really don't like the world you live in Maybe you need to work towards non-attachment to those things you dislike, and maybe aspects of Raja yoga where as my teacher puts it- no ill thoughts, words or actions towards others for every waking moment and I find this the most difficult part of the path.
Of course I fail everyday but I still persist to the best of my ability and it does improve with practice.
Unfortunately by meditating, pranayama and other practices we are only doing the easy part of yoga.Changing ourselves is the difficult part in my experience.Even when cleansing I try to take positives from the fact that after the cleansing ends, my levels will have risen another notch.I also teach my students this to help them.It's a bit like 'is the glass half full or half empty?'.
I am sure there are many things you take solace in like the beauty of nature. I certainly hope so.
L&L
Dave |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 2:31:55 PM
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Riptiz,
Thanks for answering! Yes, it is tricky business, this altering of the perspectives! Non-attachment to those things I dislike can easily be expressed by the mind as rejection of it instead of acceptance of it. But as you say, I'm working on that, to accept without resentment (no ill thoughts etc). It is a fulltime job, since it would include sort of everything except some beautiful moments with nature!  Thank you for mentioning that. That is something I find hard not to enjoy. I guess I might be doing some profound cleansing right now - I'll try to remember also this shall pass.
Actually, it is my encounters with self-realized persons lately that has just planted this current depression in me. I don't understand why everybody says "likes and dislikes will disappear" "you will get detached from it", and then see that those persons still express likes and dislikes as everybody else. That must logically mean the stillness is liking and disliking, no? It is no longer the ego, it's the stillness itself and it likes and dislikes everything the ego used to like or dislike it seems... Boy... I'm disappointed, confused, don't understand any of it anylonger! That's the core of it!
So with Andrew's exercise above, it would mean you should realize what you are afraid to lose (your likes), see it through in order to be able to drop the ego, and then let the stillness enjoy the very same thing. No change of what is to be liked or disliked, only the perspective of who/what is enjoying or not enjoying it???
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Edited by - emc on Jul 09 2007 2:33:46 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 3:31:50 PM
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Hi emc
quote:
Boy... I'm disappointed, confused, don't understand any of it anylonger!
Why are you disappointed about being confused and not understanding any of it?, this is great. You could understand the whole universe, including spiritual wisdoms, with logic and analysis and still know nothing.
You experience love, there is nothing else worth anything.
Louis |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 3:46:29 PM
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Hi emc,
You made me think of a quote when I read you talking about killing the ego. Ken Keyes the author of the Handbook to Higher Consciousness wrote that the aim is not really to kill the ego but to "retire it due to lack of work." I always liked that better that the "killing it" or "destroying it" or "annilating it" or whatever that you read about.
Eckart Tolle said of the ego, "the mind made self, deriving its identity from the past and its salvation in the future." That sums it up pretty well I think.
I think at present that ego is just code for abnormally inflated self-concern. I mean, you do have to "chop the wood" and "carry the water" so you can "pay the bills," but beyond that, maybe a person can get a bit too self involved.
Maybe that is all it boils down to.
Sometimes I think all this ego stuff is for the birds and is often just more ego stuff. What do I know? I am just another ego. 
Best wishes, yb.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 5:45:34 PM
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Hi Andrew - you probably weren't looking for us to post our lists, but I'm going to anyway, as I'm wondering if anyone can relate. After some reflection, I think I'm concerned that if/when I become enlightened, I'll lose my interest in bettering myself. That I'll lose interest in pushing myself to try new things. I'll stop striving for excellence with my talents. Everything will be "just fine" as is, and I'll turn into a self-accepting ball of mush. That said, there's nothing I want more than to awaken.
Wasn't Adyashanti a professional athlete or something? Biking? Where did that drive go? This isn't a criticism of him - just something that I noticed he lost along the way. I'd love to meet an awakened soul who is also a master at something besides talking to others about their awakened soul.
Please don't anyone tell me how silly this is - I know it's all straight from the ego, and silly as can be. But a good question, Andrew!
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Edited by - Manipura on Jul 09 2007 6:33:35 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 8:26:30 PM
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Meg wrote:
"I'd love to meet an awakened soul who is also a master at something besides talking to others about their awakened soul."
Ha ha. me too. Of course Yogani isn't one of those as he doesn't talk about his awakened soul.
Actually, i firmly believe there a lot of those people out there. people don't recognize them as being "awakened" because they don't advertise it. They are passionate about something else besides influencing people or being awakened. They have other words for it; words that relate to whatever they are passionate about. You can tell they're awakened by how they live, and sometimes by the look on their faces. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 11:22:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I see that this might be a great exercise for persons who still like life and what the ego is experiencing here, the "greedy" ones that haven't had enough yet, that have things they still cling to. Would it work also for someone like me who is "hateful" or would I perhaps have to ask other questions?
Hi EMC,
I have to say I love the honesty and candour of your posts. For sure this exercise isn't for everyone, I found it helpful so wanted to share, hopefully a couple of others who are into self-inquiry will too.
It is interesting to ask ourselves what hate is. To me, it seems to be our minds telling us what we definitely don’t want, isn’t this a great gift? Yesterday I watched a movie that was about World War 2 and it was very violent. It brought tears to my eyes seeing how human beings could treat one another and I know that I certainly don’t want violence in my life. But do I hate violence? No, I do not hate it because I see that somewhere amid all that violence people eventually realize that it is not worth it, and they come to understand what is important. Yes this realization can be a long time in coming, but I think the futility of it all dawns in people at some point.
So what is it that you hate in this great learning ground of earth EMC? I guess if you hate some things in keeping with duality, there must be their opposites that you would love to see, to make it all worth while?
quote:
I do not want to stay in this life, and I am afraid the world will be the same when I get enlightened. "Before enlightenment you chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment you chop wood and carry water." and "All that is profane will become sacred again" gives a hint of that being a matter of fact.
The world will be the same, but the important part, the way you perceive it will change. Your world, the world that EMC sees every day will be your dream come true. Love, joy, peace will come out of you to others and come back to you from others. You can start this right away, by being everything you would like to see in the world every time you interact with someone. Then at least 50% of the time, your world is full of wonderful things. You will see, in time others will be this way back to you much more often.
quote:
It's like I have been starting to get an idea that it will be the same, but luckily "I" don't have to be here and suffer, cause "I" will be gone (thank god). Then this terrible life can go on as usual and that scenario scares me. That this earth is not really more beautiful than that and will not become more beautiful either despite of an increased consciousness in more and more people. There is nothing that gives me the impression that earth will become a nicer place when more people get enlightened.
How does earth being a nicer place or not really affect you? Imagine there was another planet not too far from here where all these people who lived there did horrible unspeakable things to one another. You would have no idea about it, never hear anything, so the fact of it wouldn’t upset you in the least. Parts of earth are ugly, no argument there, but what of EMC’s world, your personalized experience each day? Couldn’t it be an incredible dream come true here, it’s possible isn’t it?
quote:
"make a list of everything you think will happen in your life"
For me it would be: "... of everything you fear is not going to happen" and then question "Can you really know that is true?". The answer would of course be no. Then I'd just have to hope that "me" dissolving will do the trick of getting me out of here and let love, light and joy (whatever that is, I don't know anylonger) BE instead. Strangely, that has been my wish all my life. I've had this weird death wish under the surface since I was a kid and the possibility of suicide has been my only comfort. Killing the ego is the ultimate suicide, so I am so grateful it has started to happen. But from that angle what would speed up my path?
Only you can know these answers EMC, but if something bothered me I would question why it bothered me. What do you hate, more importantly why, what is it you fear would happen if you had to experience something you hated. Your probably an expert by now, but using the work is a great way to get to the bottom of it.
Best of luck!
A
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2007 : 11:59:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Actually, it is my encounters with self-realized persons lately that has just planted this current depression in me. I don't understand why everybody says "likes and dislikes will disappear" "you will get detached from it", and then see that those persons still express likes and dislikes as everybody else. That must logically mean the stillness is liking and disliking, no? It is no longer the ego, it's the stillness itself and it likes and dislikes everything the ego used to like or dislike it seems... Boy... I'm disappointed, confused, don't understand any of it anylonger! That's the core of it!
I'm not fully self-realized so can't know for sure, but watching the evolution of my mind over the last two and a half years of AYP practice gives me some insight into a trend or two.
The first is that I have started to enjoy everything in my life in some way. Even painful things I eventually come to love (or at least feel grateful for) because they are bringing me more and more freedom. Every experience has a silver lining if we look for it no matter how "unobvious" it seems at first.
I still have preferences which I love but I don't mind when they aren't there, because I will have something else in front of me that I could do or experience which is great too. I love sports, but I also love not playing so my body can rest, it also gives me a chance to do other things. I used to get very upset when I lost, (at anything really), I was what some might call "a little hyper-competitive" . Now I don't mind at all, feel happy straight away, just love to play and compete but the moment it’s over, it’s over.
Byron Katie says she still has preferences which she loves to enjoy. So I don't think they go away, it just doesn't make a difference if they are there or not, there is so much to have fun with. Dislikes I have noticed are fewer and further between. I see reasons to love them, never have been a big fan of cleaning up, but how I love having a clean place, so I focus on the latter and it's no longer painful.
quote:
So with Anthem11's exercise above, it would mean you should realize what you are afraid to lose (your likes), see it through in order to be able to drop the ego, and then let the stillness enjoy the very same thing. No change of what is to be liked or disliked, only the perspective of who/what is enjoying or not enjoying it???
My intention with the exercise was for people to ask themselves if it was absolutely true they would actually lose anything. For example, I'm afraid I wouldn't want to go out and have a good time in a bar with friends anymore, that I would socially ostracize myself in some way if I were suddenly enlightened. Yes I know it is irrational, hence the reason for the exercise! So I ask myself if it is absolutely true that as an enlightened person I would never want to experience that kind of social interaction. The answers become obvious and I remove a little resistance from my path.
Bottom line, to me, self realization is not about likes and dislikes so much as about naturally falling in love with it all. Don't worry so much about the details, as Yogani would say, it's all under the hood any way, just keep practicing and it will all work itself out.
A
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 01:43:08 AM
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quote:
Anthem wrote:
Bottom line, to me, self realization is not about likes and dislikes so much as about naturally falling in love with it all.
Ken Keyes, the author of the Handbook to Higher Consciousness speaks of ego demands as the lower consciousness method of dealing with life and ego preferences as the higher consciousness method of dealing with life.
Demands are things we tell ourselves we must have inorder to be happy.
Preferences are things we tell ourselves would make life better but are not absolutely necessary inorder for us to experience more or less continuous inner peace and happiness.
His method of personal growth is to identify and uplevel all our addictive demands to preferences so that "we can love it all".
Demands generate lower consciouness emotions and represent the first three chakras, security (fear and danger), sensation (attachment and aversion, pleasure and pain) and power (domination and submission) while preferences generate higher consciousness emotions and represent the second three chakras, love, cornucopia and conscious-awareness (acceptance, abundance and witnessing).
Preferences denote a much more flexible, unifying open modus operandi while demands create a great deal of rigidity, conflict and separation.
The lower chakras create a separating self and the higher chakras create a unifying self.
As a person rises in consciousness, they become increasingly less critical of, more open to, and accepting and appreciative of everything that happens in life.
The games of life become more and more enjoyable and the winning and the losing become secondary. This doesn't mean you still don't try to win.
Then you can truly enjoy your life "inspite of it all."
Your last post made me think of this model of personal evolution, Anthem.
Best, yb. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 04:53:47 AM
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Yogibear, I don't mean the ego will disappear with the expression "killing the ego". I mean what you refer to, the non-identification with it.
Anthem, When you write about crying when seeing the war film I remember some old buddhist saying that if you were a murderer before enlightenement you will continue to be a murderer after enlightenenment, since you now know why you play that part and just do what you're here to do. No change. Nothing will change in the world. Only the perspective of who's the doer. Your preferences and personality won't change. But the masters kept silent about this because people would not walk the path otherwise.
"Your world, the world that EMC sees every day will be your dream come true." Hm. I don't have any dream. Meg writes about the question 'where would your drive be to do all those things you find wonderful?'. Well, I don't find very much wonderful. I ride horses and enjoy it very much, but if anyone asked me "Would you like to stay in this wonderful moment of pleasure riding your favourite horse in a beautiful forest or would you want to die?" I'd say DIE! NOW, please! I love skiing downhills in the alps. Five minutes in powder gives me an ecstatic experience and I want to do it again and again, I laugh, I shine, I smile all over. But if anyone asked me "Would you like to stay in this moment forever or would you want to disappear from this?" I'd say LET ME DISAPPEAR! I want no more of this! I want it all to END! I love being in love with someone, having the greatest sexual-tantric experiences, feeling the world is perfect! I fly, I cry, I love, love, love it! Still... I'd say the same - Let's get the hell out of here!
I have a long way to go to start enjoying life..... The best so far in my life has been hitting the void on a few occasions. I want to come home, have no thoughts, don't feel my body anymore. Nothing else. I don't want to be here on Earth.
Sorry, I'm really low at the moment. Thanks for all your efforts to comfort me and cheer me up! I'll go and self-pace now. Lots of self-pacing needed, I think!
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Edited by - emc on Jul 10 2007 05:18:55 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 08:21:01 AM
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I understand you, emc. Those things that I find meaningful and joyful are the activities that connect me to the Source, but that doesn't mean life's a big pot of joy. I often think it would be great to die and be done with the struggle, but it won't be by my own hand, so I've no choice but to await the outcome of it all. I'm in a low spot as well, and at the moment life feels like an absurd accumulation of objects and experiences. The thing that keeps me going is that I'm CONSTANTLY seeing acts of kindness, everywhere I go, which cuts through the absurdity and makes my heart swell. If you find no pleasure or meaning in the stuff of life, you may look into some kind of service - giving of yourself in some way to help others through. It may give meaning to your life, or at least make the passage more tolerable. A huge shift happens when you stop thinking 'what's the point', and start helping others who are in an even worse place than you are.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 1:38:23 PM
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I like your post, meg.
quote:
The thing that keeps me going.....
Hi, emc.
Sorry to read you are at a low point. Hope you get it sorted out soon.
Wish you well, yb. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 1:45:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Hi Anthem11 - you probably weren't looking for us to post our lists, but I'm going to anyway, as I'm wondering if anyone can relate.
Hi Meg,
I love it, post away, I'm sure it's helpful for us all to share these things.
quote:
After some reflection, I think I'm concerned that if/when I become enlightened, I'll lose my interest in bettering myself. That I'll lose interest in pushing myself to try new things. I'll stop striving for excellence with my talents. Everything will be "just fine" as is, and I'll turn into a self-accepting ball of mush. That said, there's nothing I want more than to awaken.
These are great and probably pretty common fears that many feel about the process. I'm not sure how into self-inquiry you are, but a typical way to get past these types of thoughts is to ask yourself if it is absolutely true it will come to pass. For example, is it absolutely certain that you will lose interest in bettering yourself? Is there a possibility that you will still want to do the things you love, maybe your reasons will simply change?
It's funny, you mention professional sport, this has been my life for the last 12 years. I definitely experienced a serious "rough patch" in my ability to compete when I went through kundalini awakening and my entire mental landscape got re-written. All my old reasons for competing, like the want to be good at something because my identity was tied to it, being perceived as an authority or expert at something etc., all of this started to fall apart. My ability to compete in general fell away for quite some time, I didn't understand how to motivate myself anymore, the old reasons weren't there any more, the emotional energy I used to harness to motivate myself had vanished. I also didn’t understand how to manage my emotions while competing anymore. I definitely lost my way for quite some time and had to pull back out of the sport that had been the biggest part of my life for the longest time.
Eventually I started to miss it and my original reasons for doing it in the first place, (because I loved it), began to resurface and I went back to it with a whole new perspective. So much of it was new all over again and I just love playing and use it now to clear myself out as I detect old thought patterns. I don’t see this stopping the further I go on the path because I don’t play it because I need to validate myself anymore. I do it simply because I love playing and love exploring how to improve etc. I can’t lose anymore because every loss is a learning experience which is really what I’m after anyway.
quote:
Wasn't Adyashanti a professional athlete or something? Biking? Where did that drive go? This isn't a criticism of him - just something that I noticed he lost along the way. I'd love to meet an awakened soul who is also a master at something besides talking to others about their awakened soul.
I can’t speak for Adya, but if he wasn’t competing for the right reasons and once he cleared himself out he may not have wanted to continue because he had no innate love to do so. More to the point perhaps, every professional athlete will eventually leave the professional playing part of their lives behind and retire, the aging body pretty much guarantees this.
In regards to finding a master of something in addition to life, I’m sure there must be some martial arts masters out there?
A
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Edited by - Anthem on Jul 10 2007 1:46:42 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 1:52:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
Ken Keyes, the author of the Handbook to Higher Consciousness speaks of ego demands as the lower consciousness method of dealing with life and ego preferences as the higher consciousness method of dealing with life.
quote:
Your last post made me think of this model of personal evolution, Anthem.
Best, yb.
Thanks for this reference YB.
Interesting to see someone has worked out all the details here. Glad to know I'm not making all this stuff up!
A
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 3:00:36 PM
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quote:
Meg wrote:
I'd love to meet an awakened soul who is also a master at something besides talking to others about their awakened soul.
Hi Meg,
That is really quite funny. That does seem to be the vocation of choice post awakening. Maybe it is the only job opening they are qualified for having lost their former motivations. Of course, some of them have been career yogis or spiritual aspirants. But these are only the ones we know about.
The only one I can think of died about 10 years ago. Elisabeth Haich was a master sculptor and painter. She practiced the "artless art", work for works sake, and used it as a vehicle for spiritual growth. She wrote a series of books with her student and colleague, Selvarajan Yesudian and had one of the largest Yoga Schools in Europe from post WWII thru the 90's.
She still did art after her illumination, which occurred in the late 40's, but did teach yoga, as well, which was, I think, primary.
Etherfish wrote:
quote:
Actually, i firmly believe there a lot of those people out there. people don't recognize them as being "awakened" because they don't advertise it.
Etherfish, you made me think of this:
“This awareness of the “I Am” consciousness has come to many more people than is generally imagined, but those who have this consciousness, as a rule, say nothing about it, for fear that their friends, relatives and neighbors would consider them abnormal and mentally unsound.”
Yogi Ramacharaka
I saw this while searching for the above quote which made me think of Yogani:
“Remember these words—they are golden: “Understand that from within comes the only true guidance.” If you can grasp the meaning of these words—and have the courage to trust and believe them, you are well started on the Path. If you will always live true to that little voice within, there will be but little need of teachers and preachers for you. And if we will but trust that little voice, its tones will become plainer and stronger, and we will hear it on many occasions. But if we turn a deaf ear to it and refuse to heed its warning and guidance, it will gradually grow fainter and fainter, until its voice is no longer distinguishable amidst the roar and bustle of the material world.”
Yogi Ramacharaka
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 4:52:47 PM
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Anthem,
When I read your post, I almost thought you had read the book. You used alot of his verbiage. In fact, he wrote another book called How To Enjoy Your Life Inspite of It All.
Anthem wrote:
quote:
I still have preferences which I love but I don't mind when they aren't there, because I will have something else in front of me that I could do or experience which is great too.
This viewing life thru the heart chakra according to Keyes.
Anthem wrote:
quote:
The first is that I have started to enjoy everything in my life in some way. Even painful things I eventually come to love (or at least feel grateful for) because they are bringing me more and more freedom. Every experience has a silver lining if we look for it no matter how "unobvious" it seems at first.
He would say that this is the 5th center of consciousness talking.
More power to you, yb. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 5:19:46 PM
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quote:
“This awareness of the “I Am” consciousness has come to many more people than is generally imagined, but those who have this consciousness, as a rule, say nothing about it, for fear that their friends, relatives and neighbors would consider them abnormal and mentally unsound.”
What a wonderful paradox. Why on earth would they be afraid? Only the ego has fear... And what would they care about "normal" and "sound"? They would know it's only a dream and be free to do whatever.
I'm afraid I still would be afraid to fart in social gatherings when I get enlightened. I would continue to go against my own body's natural flow and be ashamed and embarrassed if I happened to fart. How would an enlightened person cope with such an event? I hear Katie: "Oh, do you think I caused your inconvenience? Sorry. You only live in a bad dream. There's only smell. No good or bad. It's only your mind causing your suffering now because you believe your thoughts that "this shouldn't happen" or "this is a bad smell". Sorry, but I have got nothing to do with your situation. Life happens and your suffering is caused by you. But only to 100%." |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2007 : 6:02:08 PM
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A person can awaken and still not be stable in that consciousness and have no frame of reference with which to understand it. It can be quite unsettling and take awhile to grow into. Maybe just recognizing that their view point had shifted so radically from that of their social contacts they figure it is best to keep silence because it would fall on deaf ears and not do anything to forward good relations or serve a good purpose.
Maybe "for fear" is a bad choice of words. Maybe "because they know" would have been better.
I have no experience with Katie. I wouldn't fart either because it isn't socially acceptable. I wouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed if I did, tho. I would just deny it. I would blame someone else. Just kidding. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2007 : 09:48:25 AM
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Hi Meg
quote:
After some reflection, I think I'm concerned that if/when I become enlightened, I'll lose my interest in bettering myself. That I'll lose interest in pushing myself to try new things. I'll stop striving for excellence with my talents. Everything will be "just fine" as is, and I'll turn into a self-accepting ball of mush.
You might just find that you are in such a constant state of amazement at the miracle and beauty of God's creation and are so overwhelmed by the joy and love flowing through your being in every moment, that the very idea of anyone bettering themselves would seem positively laughable. And you'll probable want to laugh out loud that you ever thought it was even a possibility.
This is just a guess, but it's an educated guess.
I expect you'll turn into a self accepting ray of love.
Much joy
Christi |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2007 : 11:47:18 AM
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I now evoke the memory of Andy Kaufman, who was not afraid at all to fart in public. Or use exorcise in his life goals (wrestling).
A high soul, indeed!
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Edited by - Kyman on Jul 11 2007 12:02:11 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2007 : 12:14:13 PM
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Thanks, Christi. I get your meaning, and yet from where I now stand, this side of enlightenment, the idea of losing my drive sounds very dull. It's good for me to see this, and chew over a bit. Without my drive I might have to stop striving and enjoy life or something dreadful like that.  Mostly I fear that 100% self-acceptance would quench my thirst for self-improvement, as well as douse the fire that keeps me pushing for perfection. Rilke once said that he never did any kind of psychotherapy because he didn't want to exorcise his demons. The greatest music and art was written by those who strove to get as close as possible to perfection of their craft. Would we have Beethoven's opus if he'd been enlightened? Maybe, but it would've been different.
I love what Andrew wrote:
quote:
For example, is it absolutely certain that you will lose interest in bettering yourself? Is there a possibility that you will still want to do the things you love, maybe your reasons will simply change?
Yes, I can see this as a very possible outcome of enlightenment, because my reasons for excelling have already changed. That which formerly motivated me to push myself and excel has lost its luster, and every now and again I can perform the same activities from a purely devotional heart space (or at least I can imagine coming from that space). But frankly, I don't think it's easy to summon the same inner drive when one's intentions are purely devotional. It's an oxymoron, sorta like 'Power Yoga' or 'Meditation for Success'. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2007 : 1:04:31 PM
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Hi Meg
I think Christi said it beautifully quote:
You might just find that you are in such a constant state of amazement at the miracle and beauty of God's creation and are so overwhelmed by the joy and love flowing through your being in every moment, that the very idea of anyone bettering themselves would seem positively laughable. And you'll probable want to laugh out loud that you ever thought it was even a possibility.
To me this describes living in the moment or the Buddhist term of mindfulness. Our drive is replaced with surrender to the moment, to "life's" evolution. So of course your art would change to reflect this change in consciousness, nothing wrong with that.
When recently at a Byron Katie workshop in Dublin, at which emc also attended, I was fortunate to have a little chat with Katie during a book signing.
Part of the chat went something along the lines:
L: I have been reading your latest book "A Thousand Names for Joy". I didn't realise you were so enlightened untill I read it.
BK: Well therein lies the question of what is enlightenment.
L: Yes, eventually its probably to do with "service".
BK: Yes, service to "me"
L: And that service doesn't stop untill everything everywhere is enlightened.
BK: Yes, that's correct.
This reflects what has been said on the forum here about enlightenment, so it was nice to hear BK with the same slant.
It appears to me then that a combination of this view of enlightenment and what Christi said above would mean that your art as "art in service" "in the constant state of amazement at the miracle and beauty of God's creation" might not produce too bad a canvas.
BTW. It was fabulous to meet emc, such a treasure of wisdom, love and integrety.
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Edited by - Sparkle on Jul 11 2007 1:13:17 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2007 : 4:16:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
When recently at a Byron Katie workshop in Dublin, at which emc also attended, I was fortunate to have a little chat with Katie during a book signing.
Part of the chat went something along the lines:
L: I have been reading your latest book "A Thousand Names for Joy". I didn't realise you were so enlightened untill I read it.
BK: Well therein lies the question of what is enlightenment.
L: Yes, eventually its probably to do with "service".
BK: Yes, service to "me"
L: And that service doesn't stop untill everything everywhere is enlightened.
BK: Yes, that's correct.
This reflects what has been said on the forum here about enlightenment, so it was nice to hear BK with the same slant.
It appears to me then that a combination of this view of enlightenment and what Christi said above would mean that your art as "art in service" "in the constant state of amazement at the miracle and beauty of God's creation" might not produce too bad a canvas.
Hi Louis and All:
Very well put.
You don't have to worry about losing your motivation, Meg. As a matter of fact, as we advance, our personal motivation gradually gets multiplied by at least 6.5 billion as it expands beyond our body-mind to encompass everyone else on the planet, and beyond. We will not necessarily see it in terms that large, of course, but that is what it is, because we will be doing for others in every moment, and there is no limit to what divine love can do. You can be sure you will have the motivation to go along with the divine love. Can't have one without the other.
The good news is that we can actually handle the vast dimensions of this without falling over, assuming we have learned to self-pace along the way. Then it is just chopping wood and carrying water. Or, as another Buddhist saying goes:
"Don't sweat the small stuff.
It's all small stuff."
I am also reminded of a scene in the Secrets of Wilder where Devi asks John why he is taking on the spiritual destiny of the entire planet. His answer is simple enough: "Because I can."
And that is it, you know. We are all doing what we can. As we purify and open from inside, we can do more. We can accomplish the infinite, because we are that. Whether it is through our art, our hands-on teaching, building a service organization, supporting our family, or helping an ill loved one or friend make it through the day, we do it because it is there to do, and because we can.
The image of enlightened people hanging around with no motivation to do anything, basking in their inner silence and spouting platitudes is completely false. It is a fantasy, and not a very appealing one at that, as you have rightly noted. It isn't real.
Real enlightened people are out there in the trenches of life working in their own way for the betterment of all humankind. They are working for themselves -- the "me," the oneness of "i am."
That is unity doing what unity does.
The nature of enlightenment is stillness in action, and the primary characteristics of that are unending ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love.
It also means facing challenges, meeting deadlines, and paying the bills. So chop wood and carry water as you see fit, and enjoy the ride! 
The guru is in you.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2007 : 8:29:42 PM
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large pause here in respect for yogani's post. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
-----------------------------------------
emc wrote:
quote:
"I do not want to stay in this life, and I am afraid the world will be the same when I get enlightened."
Not at all.
What Anthem said about perception is good.
Enlightened people who say it is the same world understand those words, but they cannot be understood by the unenlightened. Why?
Because your whole world is created by your perception. Your only means of perceiving the world is your senses, and using your mind to interpret their input.
If you are depressed, your whole world will be depressed. so that means EVERYTHING you see, hear, touch, etc, is colored by that depression. Been there.
So this is a breakdown in communication from enlightened people. Sure, the words describing the world stay the same, but when your interpretation of the world changes, the whole world seems to change dramatically. It is not at all the same world you don't like.
I have had the same feelings you describe, and what changed it for me was deciding that since I don't like the world, but feel I must be here, I would disconnect from it and put all my feeling and devotion in God.
i decided I must have unshakable faith in God because he is more important than the world. Whenever I saw something i didn't like, i would think of God. Everything became a reminder for me to return my thoughts to God.
This helps to change your perception. Tell God "I don't like any of this world; all I want is you."
little by little he will begin to show you a good path to follow, and you will begin to feel him with you. The whole world will change! |
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