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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 8:15:59 PM
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| I won't touch the typo "tahn". I won't touch it. No I won't. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 8:24:40 PM
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| You definitely need hlep. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 8:54:38 PM
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| You misspelled "shlep". |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 06:06:36 AM
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Ha, ha, 
Editing or not editing, that is the question 
PS: you could always ask a moderator to edit, that way
you could avoid the edit button, but would that be cheating your karma ?  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 2:40:46 PM
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Hi Jim
quote:
I hope it's becoming a bit clearer what I'm saying now.
I am not unclear as to what you are saying, Jim. Your story is your story. I hear you loud and clear.
What I am most happy about when it comes to your posts here in this topic, is the fact that you made it clear to me that I come through to you (and probably others) as someone who thinks herself "fully realized". This is not true. Some of my posts make this pretty clear. But some posts obviously doesn't. I am grateful to you for pointing this out.
I am just as ordinary as anybody else in here; and also just as special.
I don't believe in any "end state". The depth of our Source is unfathomable. I will never fathom it. But I do believe that it is possible to be willing to always explore these depths. Deeper and deeper...without ever stopping. In this context, I really don't think it is very fruitful to "grade" the depth reached. It is not important "how far I have come" - only how sincere I am. Understanding the source of my being is what I aspire for most of all. This aspiration is always present in me; and together with the presence, it is what clears up doubts, illusions and stuckness. Which I have plenty of, along with the rest of us.
Again - thank you for taking the trouble to help me. In your way - you always do.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 3:03:26 PM
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Hi David
quote:
It's a rare person that has the strength and vision, and motivation, and persistence, to decisively break any deluded spritual mythology about themselves that arises in any kind of 'spiritual' group. Because the mythology is just too delicious a thing for the ego to throw away. So too often the ego likes to have its cake and eat it -- to repudiate the mythology officially on the one hand and then (often subconsciously) cultivate it on the other!
Yes. I don't think any person can really manage this. Only Grace can.
quote:
At the same time, in your case I can't be sure at all that you even do want the adoration on some subconscious level (only you can be).
I don't want adoration. I want understanding. I love to see! I want to keep adoring what is the basis of my Being. The same basis as yours. I adore that!
Subconsciously I might want any kind of weird thing - I don't know. But I trust that the place in me that knows that I don't know, will lead me on my way. It has so far. Without fail. I make plenty of mistakes; I leave it many times, yet it never leaves me. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 10:04:45 PM
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Katrine, I'm not sure why you think that I think that you think you're fully realized. I don't know and the issue's not of much interest for me (fwiw, I don't think "fully realized" exists, except maybe as a millennial freakish thing). That's not what's being discussed here. You asked: why the strange woman, why the weird fears cropping up, why all this blowback taking place when you feel as if you want nothing but to merge. I tried to explain to the best of my ability and insight (from my perspective as someone very much in the midst of the same issues). I'm sorry we're apparently talking past each other, and you seem focused on this being intended as a challenge to some notion of attainment. It's only a challenge if you indeed have mistaken notion on this. If not....perfect! Then you ought to read my postings as they were intended: an attempt to reveal the nooks and crannies and shadows beyond the shiny spiritualized mental place, which are causing all the problems you described (and which I share). It's not pleasant stuff to bring to light, but neither is it prudent to keep under wraps (believe me...I've tried).
I'm sounding the warning for you and others: again, it gets worse. Fears and desires keep intensifying as silence grows. It's the opportunity to really put one's detach/surrender/love reflex to the test. How deep is your bhakti? :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 24 2007 10:12:46 PM |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 10:35:25 PM
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quote:
I'm sounding the warning for you and others: again, it gets worse. Fears and desires keep intensifying as silence grows. It's the opportunity to really put one's detach/surrender/love reflex to the test. How deep is your bhakti? :)
Here you are, speed inspectors, with the ticket. Did feel that intensifying of fear and desire, the messiah gene tickling a bit once a while. (Dare I admit)
As for detachment: the desire to get embroiled in long wordplay here can be one solid attachment; so can the fear of getting embroiled in a debate. 
Woaah, we rreaally got to watch ourselves. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 10:39:37 PM
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quote:
I'm sounding the warning for you and others: again, it gets worse. Fears and desires keep intensifying as silence grows. It's the opportunity to really put one's detach/surrender/love reflex to the test. How deep is your bhakti? :)
Hi Jim,
I appreciate this has been your experience, but this hasn't been what I have noticed for myself as silence grows. It hasn't gotten worse, life has only improved in all areas. Certainly at times of intense clearing out, it can definitely feel temporarily like the opposite.
From my perspective, silence grows and thoughts diminish. They have become less frequent for me and don't carry the same emotional punch they once did. What used to take me for a 3 week emotional roller-coaster ride is now handled within hours or minutes thanks to increased inner silence (presence, witness etc.). Detachment grows as we become more identified with our witness self and less identified with the virtual world of our thoughts and their corresponding emotional reactions.
Fears certainly do come to the surface and we become more aware of them through the clearing out process. I can see how this could be perceived as an intensification as they come to the conscious foreground after laying somewhat dormant in the unconscious background. The fact that we can now face what once had to be buried deep within, because it was too much to digest at the time, is a testament to the capacity of what our inner silence can now handle and absorb.
Looking at desires separately, from my experience things I used to want to be or get are no longer appealing. That flat screen TV is just not that exciting and it is no longer imperative that people think I’m wonderful. In general, many things that I used to feel were supremely important no longer hold the same appeal. They have been replaced by new desires that correspond more closely to my spiritual practices.
My greatest desire is to live in reality, to not miss a single second of this gift of life, to be of service to others (because it feels so good) and to be firmly rooted in the here and now.
Please God make it so!
Amen
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 11:08:17 PM
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quote:
is the fact that you made it clear to me that I come through to you (and probably others) as someone who thinks herself "fully realized".
Hi Katrine,
For the record, I have never thought you think of yourself this way. We are all here working to clear ourselves out to the best of our abilities, some have been at it longer and/ or more intensely than others, it is as simple as that. We are all the same "beingness" in our core, we are all equal.
You are an inspiration however, as you have great courage to face your fears and to share it with us without hiding any of yourself. You leave no stoned unturned and as a result are extremely clear because of your efforts, we are lucky you are here. As you share, we all learn, this is true for all of us here. The more naked and truthful we can be about our own humanness, the more we all benefit. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 03:30:32 AM
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Hi Anthem
quote:
For the record, I have never thought you think of yourself this way.
I am glad to hear that.
quote:
The more naked and truthful we can be about our own humanness, the more we all benefit.
Amen to that!
quote:
The fact that we can now face what once had to be buried deep within, because it was too much to digest at the time, is a testament to the capacity of what our inner silence can now handle and absorb.
Yes. I trust that inner silence will continue to do the work. Often, the resolution of an issue is felt as a stilling of all questions. It is not that the question necessarily gets answered (often it doesn't) - it is more that the question itself dissolves. Then - because mind is still, heart is at peace.
When i am "under the weather" (out of conscious touch) - I have most questions. Mind works that way. It is restless when cut off.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 03:33:36 AM
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Hi Jim
quote:
I tried to explain to the best of my ability and insight (from my perspective as someone very much in the midst of the same issues)
I appreciate this, Jim!
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 09:29:43 AM
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Anthem, I'm not talking about life getting worse, nor am I talking about thinking increasing. I'm talking about desires and fears magnifying at the point when silence really starts increasing. This is written about in all the yoga texts, including AYP.
And it's not a "suffering" thing, necessarily. It's only that if you're attached (attachment = suffering). But as the magnification happens, one's detachment is certainly tested. If you haven't experienced it yet, you will. It's something everyone goes through. We all have subconsciouses that have their own agenda, and as our silence grows, those subconscious agendas are magnified via that lens, just as silence magnifies samyama from our conscious mind. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 25 2007 11:27:02 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 10:05:53 AM
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Yes. I don't think any person can really manage this. Only Grace can.
Good answer Katrine.... At the same time, one doesn't want one's house infested with cockroaches while one says only grace can manage them!(And, I'm not, by any means imaginable, saying that you, personally, have a house infested with cockroaches in this respect). Cockroaches are eliminated by vigilance. They are eliminated by not giving them crumbs. By throwing the crumbs in the trash when they arise. And that takes motivation and persistence.
Anthem said:
The more naked and truthful we can be about our own humanness, the more we all benefit.
Say it a hundred thousand times Anthem! Truthfulness, truthfulness, truthfulness! Into a thousand ashrams scream it night and day! Truthfulness about our humanness is this 'throwing away the crumbs' that I talked about. The whole Yoga culture badly needs to learn this lesson.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 12:38:14 PM
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quote:
Good answer Katrine.... At the same time, one doesn't want one's house infested with cockroaches while one says only grace can manage them!
****laughing****
Point taken, David
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 2:59:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
One doesn't want one's house infested with cockroaches while one says only grace can manage them!(And, I'm not, by any means imaginable, saying that you, personally, have a house infested with cockroaches in this respect).
We ALL have houses infested with cockroaches! THAT'S THE POINT!
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Cockroaches are eliminated by vigilance.
No! They can NOT be eliminated! They can only be detached from! The alternative is to spend your life in an unending state of whack-a-mole, waiting for the illusory point when it's all JUST RIGHT........which itself is the ultimate in attachments!
We're not trying to get the universe "in here" just right any more than we're trying to get the universe "out there" just right. We're trying to remain at peace amid conditions just exactly as they are right in this very moment no matter what (even if the cockroaches get bigger and scarier). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 25 2007 3:00:54 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 3:53:35 PM
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OK, Jim, there's a recurring pattern here: I give some advice on avoiding some bad habit or practice, and you chime in with what you believe to be a contradiction of it, but which I would also agree with -- as if the advice to avoid a bad habit were equal to obsession with being free of the habit, or advice to remain in that obsession.
Everything in context. Yes, we have to live with cockroaches and not be obsessed with being free of them. Yes, we have to work on good habits to eliminate them. Those pieces of advice don't contradict each other at all.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 11:30:54 PM
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Thanks for clarifying Jim! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 10:17:32 AM
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| David, don't mind my samskaras! (that'd make an awesome bumper sticker) |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 10:57:14 AM
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No problem Jim!
See if you can work your points in as an augmentation, or an enhancement, rather than a displacement of the ones that go before. I'm working on this same thing. Messiahs (all 250 million of us) all have to come around to that at some point.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 7:00:44 PM
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Almost off topic at this point, but you mentioned, Katrine back on the first page that you used to be afraid of wasps. i did too, but i have gotten to know them well now because in my work we run into them a lot. when you get to know them, fear turns into respect.
They are quite predictable. they are like little robot soldiers. They are very territorial. They pay more and more attention to you as you approach their territory. If you do a little of something they don't like, they swarm closer as a warning to quit it. If you quit they slowly back off. If not, they attack.
Things they don't like: 1) quick movements 2) pounding 3) chemical smells
4) fear (they can smell it)
If you follow their rules, they won't bother you, but you have to watch them.
When they get closer, it's because they are noticing something about you. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 7:33:18 PM
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Hi Katrine,
I have recently started going into spontaneous trance states. It is really weird and I don’t enjoy it very much. I come into contact with energies that are normally unnoticed. But it only happens to me when I am lying down to rest, not when I am driving a car. I have to have my mind very relaxed for it to happen.
About the strange woman who keeps clinging on to things even though you have relinquished them and no longer have any interest in them: this is described in the yogic literature. Basically we sense the world and we react to it. These reactions are called karma, and these reactions create particular mental and physical predispositions which are stored in energetic bundles in our mind-body system, and these predispositions are also called karma.
(Confused yet?)
So who we are, or think ourselves to be, is basically a conglomeration of these predispositions, a particular bundle of karmic formations. But here comes the crunch: it takes time for karma that we created in the past to work itself out and become eradicated from the system. So even if we stop generating any new karma (samskaras) due to the purity of our mind resulting from spiritual practices, we still have to wait a while for our old karma to work itself out. How long we have to wait depends on how deep the karmic seeds go. In the meantime it could feel like there is a strange woman sharing your body who keeps doing weird things against your better judgements and genuine desires. After all, it is the conglomeration (or rather the apparent conglomeration) of these karmic formations which created the illusion of this woman in the first place.
I hope you can make some sense of that.
Christi
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 7:39:04 PM
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The way people behave with wasps is a good metaphor for our negative unconscious habits of fear, which puts it squarely on topic!!
Away from the close proximity of their their hive (of which they are very defensive) they are very different, actually quite benign. Have you ever seen people at a picnic going crazy in the presence of wasps? Jumping up and down, swatting them, and generally making life miserable for themselves and the wasp?
Wasps are fun at a picnic if you know how to treat them like guests. They like sweet things and only sting if threatened. I let wasps share my food at picnics, the more the merrier. People are fascinated sometimes to see me take them carefully out of my juice with my finger if they get stuck in it. (The trick is to move slowly and smoothly, and 'lift' them by raising your finger up to them from underneath in the juice, never actually grasping them which will threaten them.) If they won't leave my finger (enjoying the juice), I gently blow them off.
There are two risks with the wasps -- one is going crazy and being hostile to them. The other is not seeing them, and inadvertently agitating them. But apart from that, you can play with them if you know how! A good metaphor for our personal demons in more than one way!!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 27 2007 4:34:26 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 8:12:24 PM
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quote:
So who we are, or think ourselves to be, is basically a conglomeration of these predispositions, a particular bundle of karmic formations. But here comes the crunch: it takes time for karma that we created in the past to work itself out and become eradicated from the system. So even if we stop generating any new karma (samskaras) due to the purity of our mind resulting from spiritual practices, we still have to wait a while for our old karma to work itself out. How long we have to wait depends on how deep the karmic seeds go. In the meantime it could feel like there is a strange woman sharing your body who keeps doing weird things against your better judgements and genuine desires. After all, it is the conglomeration (or rather the apparent conglomeration) of these karmic formations which created the illusion of this woman in the first place.
I hope you can make some sense of that.
Hi Christi,
I find this interesting and have been giving the topic of karma some thought recently.
I have noticed that I have a variety of beliefs, sometimes made up of a single thought and other times a series of thoughts, which dictate my actions and reactions to people, circumstances, and life in general, etc. When I encounter a situation that takes me out of presence, I look closely at my thoughts and realize that the way I perceive the situation in question, is actually the very thing that is making me unhappy. I've noticed that when I am "locked" onto an idea about the way I think life should be, that I suffer when life isn't that way.
Just yesterday for example, I had someone say something about me that I didn't like. After looking closely at the thoughts, I realized that my reaction was because part of me was afraid that what the person said might be true, the other part of me was afraid that others might share the same negative view about me. When I looked closely at my thoughts I realize they were simply fears and not actual reality, so I can free myself from this situation.
From my experience if I don't take the opportunity to address the unhappy feelings from a person's comments or a life situation I don’t want or like, or if I am not conscious of them, then I seem to repeat the life situation over and over until I am able to rise above it. I am guessing this is karma. Does any one else here experience life this way?
So if I am understanding karma the way you are describing it, I will live out my false belief system until I liberate myself from it. I find that life is very consistent about finding every single delusional thought I have about it and bringing me the situations that I need to become self-aware and free myself from suffering from the same situation in the future. It would be an understatement for me to say that many of these situations certainly aren’t any fun when they first arrive!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 9:27:02 PM
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Hi Anthem
quote:
I find this interesting and have been giving the topic of karma some thought recently.
I have noticed that I have a variety of beliefs, sometimes made up of a single thought and other times a series of thoughts, which dictate my actions and reactions to people, circumstances, and life in general, etc. When I encounter a situation that takes me out of presence, I look closely at my thoughts and realize that the way I perceive the situation in question, is actually the very thing that is making me unhappy. I've noticed that when I am "locked" onto an idea about the way I think life should be, that I suffer when life isn't that way.
This is how I understand karma, yes.
As I see it, all suffering is caused by simply having the wrong view, or response to a situation. And it is not only our misguided beliefs that we are aware of that cause problems, there are subconscious beliefs that only come to the surface once we have cleared the surface ones out of the way. The subconscious ones can be a lot harder to deal with when they come up, which Jim mentioned above when he said that things can get a lot more painful (or something to that effect) when we get more into silence.
quote:
Just yesterday for example, I had someone say something about me that I didn't like. After looking closely at the thoughts, I realized that my reaction was because part of me was afraid that what the person said might be true, the other part of me was afraid that others might share the same negative view about me. When I looked closely at my thoughts I realize they were simply fears and not actual reality, so I can free myself from this situation.
Yes, so if someone insults us and we feel hurt, it is not the other person who has hurt us. We have hurt ourselves by creating a mental image of ourselves and becoming attached to it. And we do not only create an image of ourselves in our own mind, but we try to create a version of that image in the minds of everyone we meet. It is quite an incredible process but we all do it. Then if someone insults us in front of our friend, they have not only damaged our own self-image, but also shattered the image that we have worked so hard to build up in the mind of our friend. So it is our own pride that is harmed. Really, if someone insults us, we should thank them, because they have shown us how far we are from being free and living a life of harmony and peace.
So if we were karma free, having stopped creating new mental and physical creations, and also having allowed our store of old karma to fully work itself out, then someone could walk up to us and insult us to our face, and there would be no reaction. Just the same flow of love out into the world. Maybe more love would flow in response to their pain, or maybe it would just be the same, I don't know (I haven't tried! ).
quote:
From my experience if I don't take the opportunity to address the unhappy feelings from a person's comments or a life situation I don’t want or like, or if I am not conscious of them, then I seem to repeat the life situation over and over until I am able to rise above it. I am guessing this is karma.
The way I understand it is that a newly created karma has a certain strength or durability. But it won't last forever. So if I think something like, "I am a man who really loves and cares for my children" then I have created an image of myself in my mind. Then if the next day a friend of mine says, "You obviously don't really love your children" then I am in for some real suffering. But if I stopped thinking that about myself, then after a few years someone could say the same thing and I might not mind so much. So each mental predisposition has a limited life. The problem is that we keep generating new ones. So I don't feel like we have to go through our entire conscious and subconscious reality, routing out every idea, opinion or thought that is basically just lining us up for a dose of suffering. If we just stop generating new karma, then the old ones will work their way out on their own. We just have to watch the gates, the point at which new karmas are generated.
The biggest problem is that even when old karmas surface, we react to them, and thus create new karmas. But new karmas are always created in the present moment. New karmas can never be created in the past, and can never be created in the future. So by bringing the light of awareness fully into the present moment, and no longer reacting blindly to the events that happen in our field of experience, we eradicate all our karma.
quote:
I find that life is very consistent about finding every single delusional thought I have about it and bringing me the situations that I need to become self-aware and free myself from suffering from the same situation in the future.
This is the wonderful thing about the Earth. If we have any delusional thoughts, or beliefs, and we are at all sensitive, it really isn't very long before they slam us into a wall. We should really be very grateful for this. You could imagine a world where most things were pretty sweet, and it could take millions of years to generate enough suffering to help us work out all our negative accumulated karma. Actually the Gods live in worlds like that. But on this wonderful planet, pain is everywhere. So with the right tools for the job, it is possible to bring all our karma to the surface relatively fast and work through it all.
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Edited by - Christi on Jun 26 2007 9:42:39 PM |
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Resistance, fear and control issues
