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Jack
United Kingdom
305 Posts |
 Posted - May 10 2007 : 4:33:08 PM
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This is a vocalisation and exploration of material surfacing as a result of meditation practice. I'll say now its a bit of a rant/offloading on my part so only read on if you don't mind that. Advice is appreciated.
I will apologise now, for I know I will be unable to word myself well.
I have been meditating for around four years, since I was sixteen. The style of meditation has wobbled around a bit, between anapanasati, metta, using holosync, practicing yogic breathing and mantra techniques. And while I think the meditation and religious learnings have probably saved me from deep depressions in my life, they have frustrated my unskillful mind endlessly.
It is not an understatement to say that there is a bit of a contrast between a Buddhist lay life and the life of most people my age in this society (20). My meditation has really been bringing some issues around this whole thing up for me.
I like to go out, I like to see friends, I still like to have a couple of drinks at the weekend, I like to go to a good club night or outdoor/house party and dance into the morning. I like to 'have a laugh' and be sillly, play, act out, meet women, all of this. I avoid anything beyond a couple of drinks, and I avoid acting aggressively or in any way that will make others uncomfortable.
However, I notice a niggling feeling of anxiety/guilt/stress/depression/depair/helplessless after meditation. And then from this feeling I notice thoughts along the lines that I need to give up all of the above. But - I would rather not. I like my friends, I like going out. I have done the hermetic thing before and I sunk into a depression over it. I have done the going out avoiding introspection thing before - and sunk into a depression. I have been trying to cut myself a deal and let myself go out and have fun without going stupid, then getting back onto the cushion the next day - and am sinking into a depression.
Right now I do not feel ready to leave behind these worldly activities. Neither do I want to abandon all forms of introspection to chase the fleeting shadows. Neither will fulfill me.
I think perhaps a large part of this actually lies in my conditioning - that there is an intrinsic clash between peer/social judgements and the path of awakening, and that to persue one is to automatically distance me from the other. Then perhaps I need simply to reframe this life and find some beliefs that empower both these outward and inward aspects of being harmoniously, without this B.S. clash.
Or maybe the mindfulness/innate intelligence has awoken somewhat and has begun its work of pushing out all the hindrances, and will not rest until 'I' (as the tip of the iceberg of attention 'Jack' entity) submit entirely into the Dhamma. (Please not yet, please please.)
I am going to use a terrible example here. When I smoked ganja, I could feel in touch with the moment, with my deep emotional patterns, very honestly, no BS.. and be very socially succesful and fulfilled.. at the same time. While I no longer touch the herb, I often look back at that felt integration of personal communion and social success and feel a twinge of nostalgia.
I just can't seem to shake this uncertain feeling. Perhaps its roots run far deeper than this post goes into. I don't know.
Comments, guidance, advice, thoughts, questions will all be considered in a spirit of honesty as I try to work my way through this surfacing material.
Well done and thanks if you read this far.
Jack
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 5:23:12 PM
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Jack, I think you are the closest thing to me I've encountered on this forum.
I know exactly what you mean, the disparity of rational living and Eastern idea path is very frustrating and can lead to guilt. I feel it all the time.
Epecially when you refer to ganja, I couldn't phrase it better myself. I gave it up, although not only for spiritual reasons - it was giving me existential anxiety and depersonalization...but I too look back on those days often feel I was more in touch with myself than I am now meditating.
For myself, when I confront these issues I simply try to imagine that it is part of the human condition, and if you take to the idea of reincarnation - that perhaps you are not meant to give 100% of yourself in this incarnation, and that whatever you do will carry over into the next life. If you cannot give up certain things "in favor" of this path than don't. If they are urges that arise and you know that they are unhealthy or destructive, than that is simply the great work of inner exploration bringing things to the forefront of your mind. If they are things that are in a grey area - cannibis/entheogens, sex, ect...no one really is a better judge than yourself.
If you are interested in talking sometime, let me know. I will give you my email address or screen-name. |
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Swami Vajra
42 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 7:06:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack
Right now I do not feel ready to leave behind these worldly activities. Neither do I want to abandon all forms of introspection to chase the fleeting shadows. Neither will fulfill me.
Correct.
Perhaps the middle path?
All things in moderation.
Enjoying meditation practices leads to more enjoyment of life activities. As we develop, our choices change and evolve. I like the example of Patanjali's Sutras where Yamas and Niyamas (restraints and observances...or for the more Christian, The Ten Commandments) come (listed) before any other limb of yoga science.
In my experience the following of yamas and niyamas is a tall order and a serious struggle when beginning serious practice. As our practice matures, these things just become our natural way of functioning, no need for the struggle.
So, my input would be to relax, enjoy both the inner and outer aspects of your consciousness. You seem to have decent insight and some intuition, so follow these inner guides. They will never lead you astray. In the end they are all we have anyway, lol. Might as well begin sharpening and applying that blade of discernment now!
May all your efforts be richly blessed! |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 8:34:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack
I have been meditating for around four years, since I was sixteen. The style of meditation has wobbled around a bit, between anapanasati, metta, using holosync, practicing yogic breathing and mantra techniques. And while I think the meditation and religious learnings have probably saved me from deep depressions in my life, they have frustrated my unskillful mind endlessly.
Hi Jack,
I have been meditating since I was 16 too, a long time ago now, and I also started with a variety of guided visualizations/ meditations etc. Although I wasn't consistent in those early years, the variety of meditation/ visualizations I started with did get me going in the right direction. If I could do it all over again, I would have started with AYP mantra meditation long ago and feel strongly that I would be much further ahead today if I stuck to the practices consistently the way they have been laid out in the main lessons (see here):
http://www.aypsite.org/MainDirectory.html
quote:
I like to go out, I like to see friends, I still like to have a couple of drinks at the weekend, I like to go to a good club night or outdoor/house party and dance into the morning. I like to 'have a laugh' and be sillly, play, act out, meet women, all of this. I avoid anything beyond a couple of drinks, and I avoid acting aggressively or in any way that will make others uncomfortable.
However, I notice a niggling feeling of anxiety/guilt/stress/depression/depair/helplessless after meditation. And then from this feeling I notice thoughts along the lines that I need to give up all of the above. But - I would rather not. I like my friends, I like going out. I have done the hermetic thing before and I sunk into a depression over it. I have done the going out avoiding introspection thing before - and sunk into a depression. I have been trying to cut myself a deal and let myself go out and have fun without going stupid, then getting back onto the cushion the next day - and am sinking into a depression.
Right now I do not feel ready to leave behind these worldly activities. Neither do I want to abandon all forms of introspection to chase the fleeting shadows. Neither will fulfill me.
I think perhaps a large part of this actually lies in my conditioning - that there is an intrinsic clash between peer/social judgements and the path of awakening, and that to persue one is to automatically distance me from the other. Then perhaps I need simply to reframe this life and find some beliefs that empower both these outward and inward aspects of being harmoniously, without this B.S. clash.[/
I think you have answered your own question here. You engage in the things you like and you are happy, when you decide to believe one of the thoughts in your mind that says something along the lines of "a spiritual person shouldn't live or act the way I do" you suffer. You seem to have a pre-conceived concept of how you think a spiritual person should live and you are finding yourself at odds with it since you are not living that way. It will become obvious over time, that life and spirit are intimately tied together.
I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person and I enjoy all the things you mentioned above too, going out, having a couple drinks here and there, being social etc. (Jesus drank wine by the way or so they say). In fact if anything, my spiritual practices have allowed me to engage in these things more fully and in a much more open and free way.
quote:
Or maybe the mindfulness/innate intelligence has awoken somewhat and has begun its work of pushing out all the hindrances, and will not rest until 'I' (as the tip of the iceberg of attention 'Jack' entity) submit entirely into the Dhamma. (Please not yet, please please.)
I agree, mindfulness/ the innate inner intelligence within wants to live life and experience without being in conflict with itself. I agree it has begun working out all your hindrances starting most recently with the inner conflict you have mentioned above which you are working out now. I agree "It" will not rest until 'I' is free.
I would drop the idea that it won't be fun or more fulfilling than you can imagine. You won't lose anything of value, you will only gain.
Good luck,
A
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2007 : 5:06:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack
I like to go out, I like to see friends, I still like to have a couple of drinks at the weekend, I like to go to a good club night or outdoor/house party and dance into the morning. I like to 'have a laugh' and be sillly, play, act out, meet women, all of this. I avoid anything beyond a couple of drinks, and I avoid acting aggressively or in any way that will make others uncomfortable.
However, I notice a niggling feeling of anxiety/guilt/stress/depression/depair/helplessless after meditation. And then from this feeling I notice thoughts along the lines that I need to give up all of the above. But - I would rather not. I like my friends, I like going out. I have done the hermetic thing before and I sunk into a depression over it. I have done the going out avoiding introspection thing before - and sunk into a depression. I have been trying to cut myself a deal and let myself go out and have fun without going stupid, then getting back onto the cushion the next day - and am sinking into a depression.
Right now I do not feel ready to leave behind these worldly activities. Neither do I want to abandon all forms of introspection to chase the fleeting shadows. Neither will fulfill me.
Hi Jack,
I think you are doing great.. this problem comes because of confusion.. confusion that arises in you, because, as you said.. you like doing what you are doing.. and yet feel guilty doing what you are enjoying. Your perspectives are changing, but your mind does not want to accept it yet. This is leading to a confusion/adaption/adjustment phase.. and please note the word phase... because that is all it is. (that is why it is said.. spirituality leads to second puberty.. have you seen the confusion in the teens.. they think and feel grown up.. and yet.. they are not sure how to react to all of it.. been there done that, right?) As you continue.. things will get clearer and you will know what is right and what is not... (and just when you think you have it all figured out.. it will change on you again :).... just kidding!!! but yes, perspectives will keep changing as you grow.. they will get deeper and clearer.. so never hold on to anything.. allow change as it happens). Don't get into a guilt phase.. just accept things as they come. Soon you will be able to enjoy being with your friends.. and have a drink(if you want to).. at a different level.. where you will not have the same attachment to all of this as you once did.. and yet enjoy it to the fullest.
Ummm.. nowhere in AYP will you find anyone tell you to become a hermit or leave any worldly activities.. Just the opposite.. Do your twice a day practice.. and then go out and live your life to its fullest.. that is the basic thing to follow in AYP..
I hope this helps. I know they are just words to you right now.. but have faith .. and they will have a meaning soon.. |
Edited by - Shanti on May 14 2007 7:14:59 PM |
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