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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - May 08 2007 : 02:05:35 AM
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hi everyone,
I haven't been around for quite a while, busying other things in my life. For the first time since I started AYP, I see how difficult it could be for me to stick to my practice and lead a super-active life.
Just a thought after I come back: have anyone thought about using dead animal(preferably animals that resemble our body structure more closely) body parts to do experiments on how the frenum should be cut in order to achieve max gain? Or to enhance our understanding of how the flexibility is gained as we snip through the frenum.
i'm not currently snipping, as I'm struggling to maintain even my basic practices. But I snipped for quite a few months, and find virtually no increase in length, since every time after the frenum healed the length is essentially the same as before. I had a discussion with David on this (ie. whether the limiting fibers would heal and limit the extension again), but no solid conclusion could be drawn. While I'm not going to snip in near future, I'm still curious to learn the mechanisms of why my tongue didn't gain length as I snip even though it's obviously frenum-limited, not muscle-limited.
Alvin |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2007 : 09:49:53 AM
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Hi Alvin,
not a bad idea, but not sure how easily you'll get the material. Vetinarians-in-training do use animal cadavers all the time, btw, for the same general purposed you want them for, and 'ethically-sourced' animal-cadavers exist.
Not much chance of getting a human cadaver if you aren't a University or Medical School. Those humans are touchy beasts about their bodies even ( and even especially! ) when they are no longer using them!
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2007 : 12:46:18 PM
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Alvin - I know what you mean about the frenum healing back to its original state. I found that stretching the tongue for about 24 hrs. after cutting is important. When possible, pull it with your fingers; when in public, just try to keep pushing the tongue toward the uvula, thus stretching the frenum. My body heals very quickly, so if I keep stretching the frenum while it's trying to heal, it was less likely to return to its normal length.
Performing frenectomies on dead animals seems like a whole lot of work, and with uncertain results, as surely the tongue (and just about everything else..) loses flexibility at death. More to the point would be to convince a veterinarian who specializes in monkeys to perform the operation while the monkey is anesthetized, and then draw your conclusions from that. You may have a hard time explaining it to the vet, and PETA would be after you for sure. Why not just keep clipping? You're probably a lot closer than you think. Are you sure that you're aiming your tongue in the right direction when you try to get into kechari? Don't laugh - a lot of us had that part confused. :) Good luck, Alvin! Don't give up. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2007 : 6:48:06 PM
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I think it would waste a lot of time trying to do it on animals. There are too many very important differences.
First of all, every HUMAN is different from every other, so you can't expect any animal to be like you.
Second, kechari involves muscle action and the changes in surrounding tissue as the muscle is used, such as blood enlarging or moving a tissue and involuntary contraction of adjacent muscles. These would be different if the animal is not conscious. So I think the time is better spent working on yourself.
Also, my understanding is that kechari will come when you have built a foundation of inner silence and ecstatic conductivity, so there may be more than physical limitations you're fighting.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2007 : 8:53:08 PM
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Meg, I believe I have tried every other ways (upward, backward, a little back then up, etc) to reach there. I can even have the tip of my tongue get behind the vulva if I snip a few times, and before it heals. But as the length wasn't enough for me to lock my tongue behind, I don't see how the "pushing forward" things make sense for me. I've read all Yogani's lessons on Kechari, and quite a few posts concerning the "correct" position of the tongue. But maybe someone could direct me to the most detailed thread concerning this?
NOw more on the animal parts which is easier for me than for you guys: in China and Hong Kong we have fresh meat markets in which you can find the whole pig lying dead, with most of its parts intact and uncooked  (um....may be not in Hong Kong now, since those flu....I don't usually go to market)
I guess that's a bit different in US, that the image of a pig or cow may be limited to the lively but flat creatures popping around in Discovery Channels; and the nicely, readily-cut meat on you dishes---with all the middle parts missing, which is an indication of a good hygiene system in your country. But most of us, especially the householder, prefer having the fresh animal which are killed only within a few hours before serving. You may even have the chicken you picked served within minutes after it's killed. Most people here can taste the difference of a freshly killed animal and the frozen one.
That's why our biology lesson was much more lively if we want to. But things started to change, at least in Hong Kong, that I'm not sure whether I can get the animal parts directly at the market.
Some of you may vomit towards that scene especially if you don't have enough inner silence But still, I think the tourist center in China should bring the foreign tourists to those spectacular views of the markets.
Ironically, the human cadavers are more difficult to get here, as Chinese tend to be more supertitious about their bodies. So I won't even think of that.
Back to the original topic, I thought about this a few days ago when I started again stirring up my bhakti, and was sitting at a korean restaurant for some roast meat with a friend. The raw pork captured my attention more than the cooked ones on my dish: that some fibers, dimmer in color than the fresh, appear to be more inextendable than the fresh. (that's not a pig's tongue, by the way). As I was busying talking to my friend, my thoughts stopped there. But now, I thought I should have played around with that piece of pork and try to figure out a way to expose the fibers out of the fresh. I may even bring a small hook and see if I can stick those fibers (which are interconnected rather deeply with the fresh, and resemble my own frenum much!!) |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on May 08 2007 10:52:33 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2007 : 9:42:20 PM
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Like Ether alluded to: kechari isn't so much a physical action as it is a subtle one. It couldn't hurt to perfectly cut the frenum and experiment on animal cadavers, but in my opinion that may not be enough. When I was trying to reach stage 2 and 3, all of my efforts seemed to make little difference. Kechari happened to me!
I realize it's somewhat frustrating, but that may just be what you need.
As a side note, I'm envious of your fresh meat market, Alvin. It truly is a whole different experience to eat something fresh rather than old, refrigerated, frozen, etc. |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2007 : 08:38:36 AM
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HI Alvin
the most detailed kechari thread is here http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....C_ID=359#359
Yo say... quote:
I believe I have tried every other ways (upward, backward, a little back then up, etc) to reach there. I can even have the tip of my tongue get behind the vulva if I snip a few times, and before it heals. But as the length wasn't enough for me to lock my tongue behind, I don't see how the "pushing forward" things make sense for me.
According to my understanding, if you can get your tongue behind the uvula with the help of your fingers it is well long enough to enter kechari stage two.
I have exactly the same problem as you but I don’t think its anything to do with the length of my tongue I can easily get it behind my uvula with the help of my fingers and search around a bit but of course it wont stay there on its own. The soft pallet needs to move forward and down for the tongue to stay behind it and no matter how much I pull and strain at it nothing happens I am just doing a little snip once a week and keeping at it. I think as Scott says when the time is right it will just happen.
Cutting up animals tongues won’t give you any answers for that so it’s a bit of a pointless exercise.
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Edited by - Richard on May 09 2007 10:48:55 AM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2007 : 08:50:16 AM
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Hi all,
No disrespect intended by what I'm about to say; however, I really can't understand why anyone would want to cut their tongue, just to be able to position it into the back of their throat or up into their sinuses - the cutting part actually seems a bit self-abusive to me.
I understand that the Kechari Mudra is meant to pull the yogi into an advanced state of Samadhi (meditative absorption). But, if one meditates, diligently and regularly, one can do this anyway. Therefore, I don't see the point of this practice.
If someone would care to enlighten me, I promise to listen without prejudice though.
Peace,
Nirodha
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Edited by - Nirodha on May 10 2007 12:59:08 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2007 : 09:31:46 AM
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| Hi Nirodha. You're right - kechari is just another mudra, although a really good one. For some people, it stirs up their ecstatic energy. It does seem to be singled out as the mudra of choice here at AYP, and as such it may be slightly overrated. I personally think it's the challenge that makes it so alluring. It's something to aspire to, or attain, and therefore brings with it a certain mystique. If you're not much drawn to it, then no need to pursue it. I get far more energy movement from spinal breathing than kechari, although the 2 work together very well. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2007 : 10:32:20 AM
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Nirodha,
You're right that meditation does the trick. Kechari just really really speeds up the process. That being said - I don't practice it anymore. It's way too powerful for me. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2007 : 10:35:27 AM
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Nirodha,
Yes, frenum-snipping can seem self-abusive at first-glance. But there's a little more to the story.
I've been meditating diligently for over 20 years -- if anything, more than I should, and my meditation has always been effective and rewarding (I'm partly reluctant to say that, not wishing to discourage people who experience it differently). Years ago, whereas I knew about kechari as a practice, I knew nothing about frenum-snipping or advanced kechari. However, my impulse to push my tongue up further was profound -- and I 'sensed' that my meditation would deepen when I did. Eventually I took a blade and cut my frenum a bit. In the absense of any form of guidance, I gave up entirely. This can give you a sense of how kechari evolved as a practice in the yoga tradition. It really can be quite instinctive to get the tongue up there are some point. Pretty much all of Yoga evolved from yogic instinct combined with natural intelligence. The myth of Shiva teaching yoga to humanity is accurate if Shiva is understood to mean innate biological intelligence.
I found AYP by searching for information on advanced kechari on the internet. I learned about frenum-snipping as a yogic practice and went straight for it. I found that it enhanced my meditation profoundly, much as I expected it would.
There is a lot of bio-individuality -- we should understand that as modern yogis. Kechari may indeed be over-rated for some -- but that does not mean that it is not superb for others.
Regarding claims that it is self-abusive, or, unnatural, or whatever, well, often these feelings and impressions are culturally-based, first-order, contain mentality of sacred-and-taboo and aren't necessarily very well thought-out. The more traditional 'yogic' response to these concerns is to say something that is still withing the mentality of sacred-and-taboo, but which gives you a warm-and-fuzzy feeling it is after all sacred and OK. (Sri Baba Rama Poparama Bop-Pop says it's OK so it must be OK.) My own philosophy is to try to pull people out of that sacred-and-taboo mentality, and entreat them to try to evaluate it from a cost-risk-benefit point of view which is generally superior, when enough information is available. And then discuss it from that point-of-view. I'm attaching some posts I wrote on the matter earlier. (They are copied from the older forum, and linking is not as useful, since the posts are all together in one long thread.) I hope you find them helpful -- or at least some food for thought.
david_obsidian said:
Subject: Kechari as a tool --- and the "naturalistic fallacy"
...
Human beings may be easily subject to the "naturalistic fallacy";
this can be viewed in two ways.
One is that we err in not knowing that our concept of "natural" is
arbitrary. Often it comes down simply to what we are accustomed to.
To a Westerner, amaroli (drinking a small quantity of ones own urine
as a health-stimulant) is disturbingly unnatural, and people have
violent reactions to the idea. In India, it is much more
acceptable. They know it is a good tonic. India is wiser than the
West in this respect.
Many people have objected (more so in the past in the West) to yogic
stretching itself. Surely doing that to the body can't be "natural"?We could work out thousands of examples of this sort of thing.
The second error is to believe that what is "natural" is better. Not
only is their no clear "natural", but there is certainly no
clear "better" in this naturalness.
The Western world still inherits something of the 'Noble Savage'
fallacy, where it is believed that the problems of human beings are
the result of conditioning and do not come from nature. Science (and
many aspects of Eastern philosophy) disagrees on this, and I agree
with science here. There is also a common fallacy that bad things do
not happen in the natural world, when you take the human beings away.
What *is* true (and what all yogis know) is that there is
Intelligence and Wisdom which are often untapped, and we use Yoga to
find it. I see the division between the Wise and the Unwise as
running across, not perpendicular to the purely-human, culturally-
bound and ironically *artificial* distinctions between Natural and
Unnatural.
And so I find it wise to snip my frenum while others find it
*unnatural*. I certainly agree with them that instinct is against
it. But instinct is not always good.
And according to what wisdom I can find, I snip my frenum with the
best tool I can find. I find a cuticle scissors better by far than
my teeth, and find my own choice of the best tool I can find to be
very "natural" (in the sense of good) for an intelligent animal.
Respectfuly yours,
-David
lili,
to me the only question is whether it is wise or not. I do not mind
the claim that it is unnatural, though I question the utility of
that persons concept of "natural", and suggest they examine
themselves philosophically for automatic thinking and the
naturalistic fallacy.
I do not mind the claim that it is 'mutilation', but do not agree
with the use of the term if that is supposed, from the term alone, to
imply that it is unwise. Certainly, ear-piercing is mutilation in
the same way, but I would not describe ear-piercing as unwise. Mind
you, I would have described ear-piercing as "unnatural and unwise"
at one time, but I was more of a fanatic then, and I would say less
wise than I am now. :)
It can certainly be described as "unnecessary", but what aspect of
yoga, or indeed any practice, cannot be described as unnecessary by
someone? And from another point of view, are not spiritual and self-
developmental practices one of the *MOST* necessary things on the
planet?
Are you convinced that it unwise to practice frenum-snipping? If you
are, perhaps you could state your reasons for believing it is
unwise, and a focussed and intelligent debate could develop from
there.
One simple way to evaluate the wisdom of it is through a cost-benefit
analysis. Many yogis, including me, have experienced its benefits
and find them wonderful. What is the cost? What is the loss?
To me, the cost has been about $7 for a cuticle scissors, about the
same in an antisceptic mouthwash, and about five minutes of my time
per month. I find the benefits far outweigh the cost, and find it
has been a wise choice for me.
Regards,
-D |
Edited by - david_obsidian on May 09 2007 10:38:44 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2007 : 12:03:38 PM
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But is kechari special?
I remember women saying it is like finding a second clitoris, only in their head. Now you are saying it is just another good mudra.
So was the "second clitoris" concept just because a good mudra can stir additional ecstatic energy that could eventually be stirred in other ways, or is there something special about kechari? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2007 : 2:47:11 PM
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For me it was more like finding a second vagina.  When my tongue finally figured out what direction to go, and found the 'secret passage', it was really fantastic. But cosmically clitoral? Nah. Half the time I forget about kechari during my practices, and the quality of samadhi doesn't seem to be influenced by whether or not I'm doing it. I think what's happened is that I've leveled out at stage 2, and will eventually start smipping again to get to stage 3, but I'm not motivated to do so right now. Maybe the clitoris is at stage 3? |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 12:57:24 AM
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Thanks everyone for your answers. They were very interesting.
David, as far as any cultural bias goes, I'm actually of Western African, Native American and Western European descent. And, while I was raised in the West, I do embrace all of my heritage.
My ancestors practiced certain things, that could be considered very self-abusive, all in the name of seeking the Mystic: scarification, piercing and other types of body modification, being hoisted up by hooks through the flesh, dancing for days on end without food and water, ingestion of hallucinogenic plants, etc.. I've even engaged in some of these practices myself - I'm not going to mention which ones.
However, I've found all of these pose an unnecessary risk when compared to Ashtanga/Raja Yoga and Buddhism's Noble Eightfold Path.
Thanks, again, for all of your responses.
Peace,
Nirodha
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Edited by - Nirodha on May 10 2007 11:54:35 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 02:07:35 AM
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However, I've found all of these pose an unnecessary risk when compared to Ashtanga/Raja Yoga and Buddhism's Noble Eightfold Path.
Hello Nirodha,
Yeah, those particular practices you mention wouldn't pass muster with my cost-benefit-risk analysis either when compared to Ashtanga/Raja Yoga either. But Kechari does. But that doesn't mean that I think the cost-risk-benefit is good for someone else. If there is not a strong 'bhakti' pull towards Kechari, that is probably a good sign that Kechari is not 'for' the practitoner at least at this time, if at all.
Cheers,
-D
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 02:27:28 AM
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| David, I guess you're probably the one who snipped most aggressively. Now I stopped snipping because, just as in Meg's case, I lose the length gradually over some weeks, and back to where I started EVERYTIME after I snipped. (I snipped at least 30 times, most rather aggressive without taking too much risk) Now, I think if I snip even more aggressively the gained length may become permanent because it would be very hard for my frenum to heal and retore its original structure, not to say that after I'm able to reach stage 2, it would probably be easier to keep the frenum stretched when it's recovering and that will make the losing length less likely. Now my question for you (or anyone who snipped extensively): any tips for snipping aggressively without hurting myself permanently? I thought it's probably ok if it's not part of the tongue muscles and away from the main blood vessels. What do you think? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 12:16:35 PM
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I don't think there's much risk of any significant harm (though I am not an expert in the matter). You can cut a blood vessel, then you need to press a clean finger against it for a few minutes until it clots. Apart from that, I have no real tips or anything.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 02:36:53 AM
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| Ok. Because at some points it became quite painful suddenly, but it's obviously just somje fresh, not muscles. I'm perfectly fine with the increasing pain, just not sure whether I would be cutting some important nerves which may paradyze my tongue if I continue. Did you "cut through" the pain as well, with no problem so far? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 07:04:22 AM
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Hi Alvin
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok. Because at some points it became quite painful suddenly, but it's obviously just somje fresh, not muscles. I'm perfectly fine with the increasing pain, just not sure whether I would be cutting some important nerves which may paradyze my tongue if I continue. Did you "cut through" the pain as well, with no problem so far?
You are cutting the right thing I hope? The frennum which connects the tongue to the base of the mouth. It is a tendon with a fan of thin skin behind it. There is a small blood vessel running through the tendon, and there are some tiny blood vessels in the connecting skin, which is why a small amount of blood comes out when you snip it, but there are no main nerve channels which could paralyse the tongue.
Christi
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 07:07:02 AM
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Hi Meg,
quote:
For me it was more like finding a second vagina. When my tongue finally figured out what direction to go, and found the 'secret passage', it was really fantastic. But cosmically clitoral? Nah. Half the time I forget about kechari during my practices, and the quality of samadhi doesn't seem to be influenced by whether or not I'm doing it. I think what's happened is that I've leveled out at stage 2, and will eventually start smipping again to get to stage 3, but I'm not motivated to do so right now. Maybe the clitoris is at stage 3?
Have you found the "secret spot" on the front side of the wall of the nasal passage?
Christi |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 07:44:14 AM
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| Maybe not. My tongue has gone as far as the nostrils, but not quite far enough to insert it into the nostrils. Where in relation to that is the secret spot? Is it above the nostrils? This is getting me interested in starting to snip again. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 1:49:46 PM
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Hi Meg,
No need to snip. It sounds like you are already far enough up. I am just a beginner in kechari (stage one), and had kind of lost interest in it as a spiritual practice. It just didn't seem to be working for me, so I dropped it. But I am starting to get more interested in it now and may take it up again. But I am wondering why it hasn't yet worked for me, and that is why I am interested in this discussion.
This is what Yogani wrote about the secret spot:
"Yogani wrote:
Yes, in kechari, the "secret spot" is the spiritually erogenous area along the back edge of the nasal septum, about halfway up, give or take. Everyone's anatomy is a little different. It is found once ecstatic conductivity becomes active, which is a function of all our daily practices over time. It may not be noticed much before then. We will know it when we feel it.
This is why entry into kechari is closely related to the rise of ecstatic conductivity. Before that, the benefit derived in kechari may be limited. It is sort of like having sex before or after puberty. Obviously, after is how nature intended it. It's the same with kechari and "spiritual puberty," which is the rise of ecstatic conductivity.
The guru is in you."
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=1660#12788
So you should have enough length to be able to find it and activate it. From descriptions that I have read on this forum, it sounds like this is the spot which becomes so sensitive, when ecstatic conductivity is present in the nervous system, that it is like having a second clitoris (for a woman).
Everyone who has experienced it seems to have no problems and only good (amazing) things to say about it. You can do a search for "secret spot" on the forum, there are a lot of discussions about it.
Christi
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Thokar
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 7:02:58 PM
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I'll add my 2 cents in about kechari, it seems to me that some people are different as far as the "secret spot" is... Most people say high up on the septum but I've found for me that if I press straight up above the septum you hit the roof which isn't in the nostrils but its as high as you can go.. When I do kriya with the tongue touching there it's always very very good... If I rest it on the septum(stage2) its still good but not nearly as good as higher up (stage 3)..
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Kechari experiments using animals' tongue
