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 Posted - Jul 08 2005 : 1:04:55 PM
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1172 From: "Rasa Von Werder" <rasa@womanthouartgod.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:03am
Subject: SHOULD GURUS PROMOTE THEMSELVES? rasavonwerder
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SHOULD A GURU PROMOTE HERSELF?
I was recently told by a critic, "Gurus do not promote themselves.
They do not look for devotees, they just wait for them to come."
The remark opens up a whole vista of questions that deal with many
things. Do they, or do they not, really promote themselves in India?
Is it righteous for a guru to promote herself? Is there a difference
between a Western anointed leader and a guru from the East? Do Western
spiritual leaders promote themselves? Does God want spiritual souls
who have Gifts to promote themselves?
A big door opens up to the culture of India vs. United States. There
are different perceptions of holiness and reaction to it. Let us just
start with a typical example of a saintly soul from India.
Most of the gurus that I have studied were noticed by others - in
India - because they followed a peculiar but familiar pattern. They
became introverted and fell into trances. They no longer cared for the
things of the world and the flesh. They seemed to be in another world,
which was assumed by those around them to be some sort of state of
Samadhi or introversion in God. So simply by being different in a
religious/spiritual way, these souls brought attention to themselves.
Sometimes only one soul was attracted, and that soul would help the
introverted person in their temporal needs. But for the ones who
became famous, more souls would come. Not all that gathered were
welcome, and sometimes too much attention was discouraged - as it
could get overly zealous and disturb the aspirant - but this is a
pattern I see over and over in famed gurus:
1. Introversion, sometimes resulting in seemingly eccentric, but to
Indians, acceptable spiritual behavior (such as wandering in the
jungle, disappearing or being incapable of tending to earthly concerns.)
2. Drawing one or more persons to themselves who believe in the
holiness of the introverted soul.
3. Some sort of gathering happens, in time, be it small at first, but
over the years, could be quite large.
4. Fame brings traffic, traffic brings fame. People noise these
now-gurus throughout the land, and there could be a center, ashram,
and charitable work.
5. Disciples or in some rare cases, the gurus themselves, travel the
world and bring more attention to their gifts and work. A guru becomes
famous.
Did "promotion" enter into this picture? Isn't it obvious? A friend of
mine, Haarvi, said to me,
"Challenge them to point out one guru who DID NOT promote themselves."
He found on the internet for me a quote where Ramakrishna longed for
his great devotee, Narendra, whom he addressed as "Narayana," a name
of God. Why had he tarried so long? I recall Ramakrishna crying to God
for years,
"Where are my boys?"
Haarvi pointed out to me how all the gurus he knew, including his own,
went on tours throughout the world, preaching and thereby, finding
devotees.
Now until recently, there was no internet. But as I checked the groups
I belong to, I noticed a zealous soul promoting for Amma, speaking of
her greatness and a new group set up for her. I was promoting and so
was Amma, through her devotee. We were doing the same thing.
The Western-yoga-beavers I know were all raised on the same stock,
receiving from all the gurus "promoting themselves." It starts with
Paramahansa Yogananda, and "Biography of a Yogi." Then we hear of
Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. Then we graduate to the dynamic duo of
Muktananda and Nityananda. In between these mountains of glory there
are many others interspersed. Hundreds of gurus came west to spread
the word, and we all benefited. And what are we supposed to do with
these treasures? Bury them under a rock? Or are we to partake of yoga,
and become gurus ourselves? Why not? One guru produces another, and
all gurus, one way or another, promote themselves.
"Oh, Narayana, why did you take such a long time to come here?
I have been restlessly waiting for you since long."
Link - Thank you Haarvi
Rasa Von Werder
June 30, 2005
HOME | UPDATES | GALLERIES | FOUNDER | SHOP | INTERACT | JOIN US!
FEMALE EMPOWERMENT | PURGATORY | MYSTICAL UNION | YOGA
CREATION | MATRIARCHY & THE FEMININE DIVINE | DREAMS
BEATIFIC VISION | JESUS & MARY CHRISTIANITY
) 2004 - 2005 RASA VON WERDER
1174 From: "Dave Moore" <riptiz@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:41am
Subject: Re: SHOULD GURUS PROMOTE THEMSELVES? riptiz
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Hi,
Does a God promote him/herself or do they promote God? My satguru is
the Yogi Samrat but how many of you have heard of him?It does not mean
you are great because you have many followers.The Maharishi mahesh
Yogi has probably done as much to promote spirituality as anyone else
in the last 100 yrs but he is not fully realised and is not a
siddha.It does not mean his teachings are not good or bad or great
just because most of us have heard of him.Gurus are simply teachers
just as we all are.A question in the book Shakti, An introduction into
Kundalini Maha Yoga was 'what does the guru get out of this' to which
the reply was' nothing , he is there to give not to receive.' Be
thankful that we have good teachers and we are blessed to receive
thier guidance.That is enough for anyone.
L&L
dave
1178 From: "david_obsidian1" <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:07am
Subject: Re: SHOULD GURUS PROMOTE THEMSELVES? david_obsidian1
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Hello Rasa,
A very stimulating question! I more or less agree with what you say
throughout.
There is indeed some form of promotion going on in most cases of
*prominent* spiritual teachers I have come across. Often the
promotion is very hidden, or occurs spontaneously, or just blends
in with surrounding cultural stuff so it can't be seen.
> I was recently told by a critic, "Gurus do not promote themselves.
> They do not look for devotees, they just wait for them to come."
But if someone has a gift, and wants to use it, why shouldn't they
promote themselves?
There are some very rare cases of people rising to prominence almost
despite themselves. But there are other cases of people rising to
prominence and deliberately cultivating an impression that it
happened despite them!
I think the real Indian guru rule is really more, 'don't be seen to promote yourself'. It's part of a bigger picture of human 'rules' where all
sorts of things which are not at all bad in themselves are
acceptable when apparently unintentional but unacceptable when
intentional; or likewise acceptable when unconscious but
unacceptable when conscious; which is strange when you think about
it, and leads to all sorts of hypocricies and contortions.
If someone is using the internet to attract a following, it's more
difficult ot get away without being seen to promote 'themselves',
meaning their message. In fact it's almost impossible.
-D
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Rasa Von Werder" <rasa@w...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> SHOULD A GURU PROMOTE HERSELF?
>
>
>
> I was recently told by a critic, "Gurus do not promote themselves.
> They do not look for devotees, they just wait for them to come."
>
> The remark opens up a whole vista of questions that deal with many
> things. Do they, or do they not, really promote themselves in
India?
> Is it righteous for a guru to promote herself? Is there a
difference
> between a Western anointed leader and a guru from the East? Do
Western
> spiritual leaders promote themselves? Does God want spiritual souls
> who have Gifts to promote themselves?
>
> A big door opens up to the culture of India vs. United States.
There
> are different perceptions of holiness and reaction to it. Let us
just
> start with a typical example of a saintly soul from India.
>
> Most of the gurus that I have studied were noticed by others - in
> India - because they followed a peculiar but familiar pattern. They
> became introverted and fell into trances. They no longer cared for
the
> things of the world and the flesh. They seemed to be in another
world,
> which was assumed by those around them to be some sort of state of
> Samadhi or introversion in God. So simply by being different in a
> religious/spiritual way, these souls brought attention to
themselves.
> Sometimes only one soul was attracted, and that soul would help the
> introverted person in their temporal needs. But for the ones who
> became famous, more souls would come. Not all that gathered were
> welcome, and sometimes too much attention was discouraged - as it
> could get overly zealous and disturb the aspirant - but this is a
> pattern I see over and over in famed gurus:
>
>
>
> 1. Introversion, sometimes resulting in seemingly eccentric, but to
> Indians, acceptable spiritual behavior (such as wandering in the
> jungle, disappearing or being incapable of tending to earthly
concerns.)
>
> 2. Drawing one or more persons to themselves who believe in the
> holiness of the introverted soul.
>
> 3. Some sort of gathering happens, in time, be it small at first,
but
> over the years, could be quite large.
>
> 4. Fame brings traffic, traffic brings fame. People noise these
> now-gurus throughout the land, and there could be a center, ashram,
> and charitable work.
>
> 5. Disciples or in some rare cases, the gurus themselves, travel
the
> world and bring more attention to their gifts and work. A guru
becomes
> famous.
>
>
>
> Did "promotion" enter into this picture? Isn't it obvious? A
friend of
> mine, Haarvi, said to me,
>
> "Challenge them to point out one guru who DID NOT promote
themselves."
>
> He found on the internet for me a quote where Ramakrishna longed
for
> his great devotee, Narendra, whom he addressed as "Narayana," a
name
> of God. Why had he tarried so long? I recall Ramakrishna crying to
God
> for years,
>
> "Where are my boys?"
>
> Haarvi pointed out to me how all the gurus he knew, including his
own,
> went on tours throughout the world, preaching and thereby, finding
> devotees.
>
> Now until recently, there was no internet. But as I checked the
groups
> I belong to, I noticed a zealous soul promoting for Amma, speaking
of
> her greatness and a new group set up for her. I was promoting and
so
> was Amma, through her devotee. We were doing the same thing.
>
> The Western-yoga-beavers I know were all raised on the same stock,
> receiving from all the gurus "promoting themselves." It starts with
> Paramahansa Yogananda, and "Biography of a Yogi." Then we hear of
> Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. Then we graduate to the dynamic duo of
> Muktananda and Nityananda. In between these mountains of glory
there
> are many others interspersed. Hundreds of gurus came west to spread
> the word, and we all benefited. And what are we supposed to do with
> these treasures? Bury them under a rock? Or are we to partake of
yoga,
> and become gurus ourselves? Why not? One guru produces another, and
> all gurus, one way or another, promote themselves.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Oh, Narayana, why did you take such a long time to come here?
>
> I have been restlessly waiting for you since long."
>
>
>
> Link - Thank you Haarvi
>
>
>
>
>
> Rasa Von Werder
> June 30, 2005
>
>
>
> HOME | UPDATES | GALLERIES | FOUNDER | SHOP | INTERACT | JOIN US!
> FEMALE EMPOWERMENT | PURGATORY | MYSTICAL UNION | YOGA
> CREATION | MATRIARCHY & THE FEMININE DIVINE | DREAMS
> BEATIFIC VISION | JESUS & MARY CHRISTIANITY
>
> ) 2004 - 2005 RASA VON WERDER
> SITE DESIGN:
1192 From: hariharan varadarajulu <drvhariharan@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 4:38am
Subject: Re: SHOULD GURUS PROMOTE THEMSELVES? drvhariharan
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Send Email
DEAR RASA
I LIKE TO SAY AS FOLLOWS IN 4 SECTIONS
1 THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN A GURU PROMOTING HIM.IS IT PROMOTING HIM OR HIS KNOWLEDGE? THERE IS ALWAYS A OVERLAP AND IT DEPENDS ON THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.IN FACT GURUS SHOULD PROMOTE THEMSELVES.ORELSE HOW CAN THE MASS WILL KNOW THE SUBJECT.GURUS READ THE INSCRIPTIONS ON THE WALL FOR OTHERS.THEY MOVE THE WAVES FOR OTHERS.THERE IS NO STATUS ATTACHED TO A GURU WHO DOESNOT PROMOTE HIMSELF.
2 GURUS ARE OF THREE KINDS
- IT IS LIKE ONE WHO FALLS INTO A DEEP PIT.HE SOMEHOW MANAGES TO COME OUT AND RUNS AWAY
- THE SECOND ONE FALLS AND COMES OUT AND SITS THERE AND GIVES A HELPING HAND TO OTHERS WHO FALL,TO COME OUT
-THE THIRD ONE FALLS AND COMES OUT AND THEN TEACHES ALL AS HOW TO COME OUT IN CASE ANYBODY FALLS
THE DEEP PIT IS THE EARTHLY LIVING AND COMING OUT IS SALVATION OR NIRVANA OR MUKTHI OR REACHING GOD OR BECOMING GOD OR UNITING WITH GOD OR REACHING HEAVEN, AS WHATEVER ONE IS CONVENIENT WITH
ALL 3 TYPES ARE GURUS ARE APPROVED IN HINDU LITERATURE AND HISTORY HAS ALL THESE 3
3. IN HINDUISM THERE IS ONE PRACTICE.WHENEVER A DISCIPLE GOES TO A GURU FOR TEACHING OR TRAINING OR INITIATION, THE GURU WILL FINALLY TELL A MANTRA IN THE DISCIPLE'S EARS.IT IS TO BE KEPT AS TOP SECRET AND SHOULD NOT BE REVEALED TO ANYBODY ( PROBABLY GURUS MAY BE TELLING THE SAME MANTRA TO ALL)
IN TAMILNADU,INDIA THERE WAS A GREAT SAGE RAMANUJA.HIS GURU INITIATED HIM AND TOLD THE MANTRA.GURU TOLD HIM ,IF RAMANUJA RECITES THIS MANTRA DAILY,HE WILL BE CLEANSED OF ALL SINS AND MUKTHI IS DEFINITE.BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE REVEALED TO ANYBODY.IF HE REVEALS IT HE WILL GET ALL THE WRATH OF GOD AND WILL GET ALL BAD THINGS.IMMEADIATELY, RAMANUJA RAN TO A HIILOCK NEARBY AND CALLED ALL PEOPLE IN THE AREA BY SHOUTING.WHEN ALL GATHERED HE SAID THE MANTRA . THE GURU ASKED RAMANUJA WHY HE DID CONTRARY TO THE ADVICE.RAMANUJA SAID IF THIS MANTRA CAN HELP MILLIONS,HE IS READY TO GET ALL WRATH
IS RAMANUJA A PROMOTER.??????
4 THE PROMOTIONS GET PUBLICITY,,MORE DISCUSSIONS BECAUSE OF AVAILABILITY OF COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS.IF SHIP IS NOT THER,SWAMI VIVEKANANDA WOULD NOT HAVE COME TO CHICAGO.ADI SANKARA TRAVELLED LENGTH AND BREADTH OF INDIA THRICE IN A LIFE SPAN OF 33 YEARS.HE DINOT COME TO CHICAGO.PROBABLY NO SHIP AT THAT TIME.IN HINDUISM SAGES ARE PRHIBITED FROM CROSSING SEAS.THOSE WHO CROSS SEAS ARE CALLED PARADESIS ( PARA-OUTSIDE DESI-COUNTRY)FOR ADI IS IT A SOUR GRAPE ??? IS SWAMI VIVEKANDA A CULPRIT OF PROMOTION ????
TO CONCLUDE WE ARE GREATFUL TO ALL PROMOTERS AS LONG AS IT IS NOT A BUSINESS
MAY GOD HELP US
HARIHARAN
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