I don't think I'm gonna do asanas anymore...

USA
549 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2007 : 8:33:54 PM

I've only been doing AYP for nearly two weeks now. I got into Hatha yoga a bit before that and was learning the postures. I was just reading a post on the Headstand, which I love, and there were discussions back-and-forth involving "don't do this before that" and the like. All I have is a book on asanas and nowhere does it get into all these specifics about what to do before what...and it's all too confusing for me. I like asanas, but it seems way too involved and I always feel like I'm never doing them right now. Apart from Vinyasanas, which I assume have to be correct, I never know what to do when and before or after what. And if doing a shoulderstand BEFORE a handstand is obviously so detrimental, then I fail to understand why. Now I feel liek I've done some sort of damage to myself. I suppose I will have to go back to my bastardized stretch routine.

meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - Apr 24 2007 : 10:47:50 AM

aum

its all about counterposes thats all

you put your body in one direction & then put it back to nuetral

back bends.. go into forward folds ( always throw twists in there as well)

meaning say you do 3 back bends whatever ones.. you would want to follow them with a nice long forward fold then a twist
(twists are always wonderful neutralizers)
as far as what poses to to before what
i personaly dont feel that doing a headstand before shoulderstand is detrimental

but you do need the counterpose fish for shoulderstand and childs for headstand

it may sound confusing at first but patience is the key
& LISTEN to you

your body willl tell you what postures it needs
2 small keys to remember

we open our bodys on inhales
close it on exhales

*example if you sit in a forward fold you would inhale your arms up then exhale as you fold forward

the other key is bringing your body (spine) back to neutral

makes sense if you bend it very far in one direction you will need to bend it back into the other

aum

* note just because we use the breath waves to get into postures
DOESNT mean that the waves subside while in posture you breath deep in posture in and out your nose and then use the breath wave to come out of the posture as well .. meaning coming out of forward fold would be on your inhale*

coun·ter·pose(kountr-pz)
tr.v. coun·ter·posed, coun·ter·pos·ing, coun·ter·pos·es
To set in contrast, opposition, or balance.

Edited by - meenarashid on Apr 24 2007 10:50:21 AM

Shanti

USA
4854 Posts

Posted - Apr 27 2007 : 3:23:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by anthony574

All I have is a book on asanas and nowhere does it get into all these specifics about what to do before what...and it's all too confusing for me. I like asanas, but it seems way too involved and I always feel like I'm never doing them right now.

Wonder if you have read the Asanas, Mudras & Bandhas - Awakening Ecstatic Kundalini book by Yogani?
He has a nice starter kit of asanas that will help.

Of course if you want to do some serious asanas

.. then I would recommend joining a class and taking a few yoga asana lessons...

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 27 2007 : 5:00:41 PM

Eddy said:
And if doing a shoulderstand BEFORE a handstand is obviously so detrimental

Eddy, I'm not sure those dire warnings aren't just ~~old wive's~~ old Yogis' tales. Sometimes it may be more optimal to do one posture before another in a certain sequence, but no, I don't think it is detrimental to do them in a different order. I think that is rubbish, but I am open to hearing that I am talking rubbish-- if I am wrong in this, do chime in someone.

So, if I am right, you can do them in any order, with benefits. Not all orders are necessarily the optimal order, but that does not mean that avoiding it entirely is better than a non-optimal order.

2111 Posts

Posted - Apr 27 2007 : 10:58:19 PM

David, doing shoulderstand before headstand IS detrimental. And there are some other little things (especially doing headstand with tense shoulders).

Asana practice, like any rigorous physical process, has some pitfalls that one must know about. That's why it's best to start with a teacher. It's not so anal that it's, like, impossible to get started. But it's something to be respectful about as one starts. In time, it all becomes second nature.

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2007 : 01:14:46 AM

Jim, what way is it detrimental? The word is a very strong one. What goes wrong when you do shoulderstand before headstand?

2111 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2007 : 10:23:01 AM

BKS Iyengar strongly warns that it can cause neck problems. In fact, I believe it has with me, during a very short period of asana practice I did alone before first getting a teacher.

there are a number of other things to avoid. Again, I'd recommend to the poster that it's best to seek a teacher's advice rather than that of a crowd on an internet message board whose knowledge of what they're talking about varies wildly. It's not hopelessly complex, it's just stuff to learn, as with any other serious pursuit.

Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2007 : 12:29:18 PM

counterposes like Meenarashid said sounds logical. When you do any exercise regime you have to make sure you are developing opposing muscles. my weight trainer in college told of someone who had worked on the muscles on the back of his legs so much that he went running, and pulled the muscles on the front of his legs.

i think this is the gist of what is good or bad about exercises; make sure they are balanced in all ways. That's one reason I like exercise that only uses body weight and no machinery; it's easy to tell what is balanced.

Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2007 : 1:14:28 PM

I have to agree with Jim on this one and I am a trained asana teacher. Headstand puts pressure on the neck and shoulderstand relieves that pressure so they are generally taught as a set with headstand first. I am not saying that dabbling will do much more harm than possibly neck discomfort, but if you make it a steady practice you can do some real harm by doing asanas incorrectly or in an improper sequence. These poses are doing fairly intense things to your body and having trained guidance is really quite important if you want to go beyond the dabbling phase into a real practice

2111 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2007 : 3:08:12 PM

Agreed with your agreement, except that by the time someone's up to headstand, they're likely more than dabbling.

Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2007 : 5:33:18 PM

Not necessarily. I have tried a headstand, and can do it, but have never had any yoga instruction at all. I just see things in pictures and try them. i can do them because of other exercise regimes I practice.

2111 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2007 : 11:06:11 PM

It makes me shudder that people would do headstand without instruction. Let me explain: I have a physical therapist friend who's amazing at what he does. And he begs - all but gets down on his knees and pleads - for me to give up headstand. He says there's no way the neck compression is healthy. My point, that I've been doing it for over 20 years and I do it with meticulous care and perfect alignment, more or less quiets him down, but only barely.

But to just sort of do it....shudder. If I hadn't had a succession of teachers screaming at me to drop my shoulders every 20 secs, to fix my alignment so that everything's totally symmetrical (i.e. well distributed load on the compressed vertebra), and to make me pay much attention to my hand and arm position (otherwise the pose gets cockeyed and the neck is unevenly loaded), I'd have gotten myself into serious trouble by now.

Asana is wonderful for you. But like many things that are strongly wonderful, you've got to learn how to do stuff (and it's well worth the effort). IMO! :)

Just to give Victor's point its due......if you're in good shape, have very good innate body awareness, and hold headstand a few secs...maybe up to a minute...once in a while, and you're lucky enough not to do something stupid (like tightening your shoulders toward your ears, which is the natural tendency), you probably won't hurt yourself much. But if you've got a regular practice of headstand going, held for a reasonable amount of time and done several times per week, PLEASE GET A TEACHER (me and Victor like Iyengar style, fwiw).

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 28 2007 11:09:38 PM

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 29 2007 : 3:09:48 PM

Well, I still kinda agree with myself here.

When someone (like Anthony) is staying away from hatha yoga because he doesn't want to learn complex rules about posture sequence, I think he has gotten the wrong message. What I have heard here from Jim and Victor here regarding dangers and detrimental effects of headstand, I would summarize as -- 'Headstand is not so much a beginner's asana -- it is something to be cautious about, especially if done regularly or intensely'. Do certain things regarding posture sequence diminish the risks of headstand? Surely. But that still doesn't mean that Eddy, perhaps over-cautioned about posture sequence, has gotten the right message. The right message for him is just that headstand is not so much a beginner's asana.

From the beginning I've understood that some sequences are more optimal than others. Consider it like the sequence of food eaten at a meal --- the sequences of food-eating various cultures have adopted is probably something a little more than arbitrary and may reflect some biological digestive facts. But the non-optimal should not be presented as the detrimental. The human digestive system, while it may be sensitive in some ways to the sequence of food consumed, is robust with respect to that sequence too. So over-stating risks can produce losses; if a person remains malnourished because they can't or don't want to figure out what order to eat their food in, that is not a good thing.

Similarly with asanas. Our bodies, while sensitive in certain ways to posture sequence, are quite robust with respect to posture sequence too. So whereas some sequences may be more optimal than others, doing a non-optimal sequence may be far, far better for you than not doing the asanas at all. I do think it is fine for beginners to ad-lib posture sequence, provided they stay to postures suited for beginners, for lengths of time suited for beginners.

And that, Anthony, is I think the right message for you, the message that you need to hear at this time.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 29 2007 4:14:28 PM

Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Apr 29 2007 : 4:59:10 PM

"I do think it is fine for beginners to ad-lib posture sequence, provided they stay to postures suited for beginners, for lengths of time suited for beginners.

And that, Anthony, is I think the right message for you, the message that you need to hear at this time."

If stated like that I would have no objection

USA
549 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 09:38:46 AM

Perhaps i will have to get Yogani's book on the subject. I really enjoy doing asnanas, and I don;t want to do more harm than good.

Shame about the headstand being so "dangerous", I really enjoy doing it.

2111 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 10:49:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by anthony574

Perhaps i will have to get Yogani's book on the subject.

Sorry I didn't make a persuasive enough case for finding a teacher. Also, fwiw, Yogani's not an asana authority.

Good luck!

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 30 2007 10:54:02 AM

meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 12:31:33 PM

aum
may i gently point something out

i personaly have had training in asanas the yoga school i attended taught from a BKS Iyengar perspective with the posture pros & spine aligner the whole nine yards
i learned so much ( thank you )
and after teaching for a little over 2 years ( in time line wise i am far behind most here) but i have been sharing yoga classes very consitantly now many many hours logged on the mat and many different types of studios

but i always seem to come back to:

when we get on our mats at the very least we get to PLAY again
like children out on recess

we get to fall and laugh about it we get to try new things we get to let GO

firmly feel that if we allow the breah to bring us into the postures it will happen in its own time

this means something is important to our practice & that is:: awareness
know whats going on in your body
aum
yes a asana teacher can tweek you

but they are only mapquest to the practicioner they give a basic outline

we go in and do the work we go in & breath the posture to life

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 12:39:38 PM

Anthony said:
Perhaps i will have to get Yogani's book on the subject. I really enjoy doing asnanas, and I don;t want to do more harm than good.

Shame about the headstand being so "dangerous", I really enjoy doing it.

Anthony, I hope I on the other hand have made a persuasive case for not needing a teacher if you stick to a common-sense regimen of beginner asanas. I believe Yogani's list of asanas is very safe for beginners, regardless of the sequence in which they are done. Headstand, BTW is conspicuously absent in Yogani's list.

It would be a shame if you avoided these particular beneficial asanas out of a mistaken belief that it is unsafe to do them without a teacher, or without a precise sequence. If you go to 'advanced' asanas, by all means get a good teacher.

2111 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 12:53:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
It would be a shame if you avoided these particular beneficial asanas out of a mistaken belief that it is unsafe to do them without a teacher, or without a precise sequence. If you go to 'advanced' asanas, by all means get a good teacher.

Since anthony is not only considering practice of headstand but is actually practicing it, it seems he's already skipped ahead to the point addressed in your last sentence...which is the point I offered, as well.

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 2:43:14 PM

Well, ideally Anthony uses both messages which are both good:

My telling of Jim's message:
Anthony, get a good teacher if you are going to do headstand (and other non-beginner's asanas).

My own message:
Anthony, you can do the right beginner's asanas in any sequence without a teacher.

Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 10:31:58 PM

Anthony if it's the inversion you like, you can do a handstand safely or get one of those bars you put in a doorway and inversion boots. Handstand you start against a wall to practice.

2111 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 10:36:21 PM

...also remember that downward dog is absolutely an inversion (keep shoulders down...also same in handstand).

USA
549 Posts

Posted - May 01 2007 : 3:14:52 PM

wow, i never thought anyone would even respond to this topic...now I feel like a child in a divorce hearing :-)

Thanks for all the advice Jim, David and everyone else. I cannot afford a teacher at this moment so it would not be practical, but I suppose I will find a middle-ground and stick to asanas that are considered more basic. Being that I am still a beginner at AYP I do not intend on establishing a "hardcore" asanas practice, I mainly employ them before meditation and Spinal Breathing because they center me and focus me on my task of stillness.

I will back off of the headstand for a while...I was becoming addicted to it anyway!

2111 Posts

Posted - May 01 2007 : 3:54:53 PM

Anthony, for what it's worth, if you love headstand (and it IS a lovable pose!), there is an option. Find a good teacher near you (where are you? If you'd care to say, maybe I could recommend), and tell him/her your situation and that you'd really like some feedback on headstand. I bet you'll find someone willing to check in and look at your headstand every couple weeks and give quick feedback for free. It'd actually be smart business...you may eventually get a good job and become a full student! Another way to do it is to hang around a yoga studio after the most advanced class (check the calendar!) and talk a student into helping out. This is riskier...I'd strongly recommend an Iyengar Yoga studio for this, because Iyengar Yoga teaches all the essentials early on.

If you take this route, one smart thing to do beforehand would be read everythign you can in books. Are books enough? No. But careful study of really good books is better than cursory study of just a random one. Here's a really good book:
http://product.half.ebay.com/Yoga_W...QQprZ1154718

I see it's going for $5 used on half.com, a great price. In fact, shoot me an email with your address and I'll send it to you as an early christmas present, 'cuz I really like headstand, too and don't want you to have to give it up! My address is jim.and.his.karma at gmail (dotcom). I broke up the address to foil spam robots.

Another resource is that there are a lot of experienced hatha yogis here, so if you need advice to supplement the book plus occasional dabs of live teacher advice, you'll get help here. Of course, we'll argue with each other as we do so, but that's par for the course!

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 01 2007 3:56:55 PM

USA
549 Posts

Posted - May 01 2007 : 4:48:44 PM

Thanks for the advice Jim

I've had someone reccomend Light on Yoga. Would you say is a good one as well?

Also, does your email address have the periods in it?