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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 5:23:02 PM
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Thanks, Yogani. I understand and resonate with this, and (on a less intellectual level) with your great previous post.
Ironically, the way in which your clarification differs from my attempted synopsis is actually quite liberating to me. The blurring of the (strangely dualistic!) line between dualism and non-dualism is helpful. Why have I seen clearly into the delusion in some ways but not others? Why am I inconsistent in my relationship to my silence (sometimes feeling that I've lost the connection entirely, sometimes feeling it's all there is and that it encompasses all)? And all the other questions we ask when we're at the point where we've awakened to many things fleetingly but to only some things enduringly.
Absolutely and for sure, it's best to not sweat these questions much, and just grind out the practices. Though I am compelled, as my practice continues, to read non-dualists, because I find that their words open me. It feels sort of like a vitamin - something missing but essential. As you know, that material is not all knots and mind trips by any means.
But when you (Yogani) started addressing that stuff, I was having trouble understanding exactly how you were placing AYP within that context. Thanks for clarifying. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 5:33:58 PM
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Namaste to All!
For each individual who commences Yoga Sadhana with a personal goal of attaining Self-Realization in Divine Union with God, Enlightenment, or any other agenda priority, the perceived separation in consciousness between self and goal is Duality. Due to this separation, confusion may arise regarding the selection of a goal, how to accurately define the nature of whatever goal is selected, as well as possible confusion on how to achieve the chosen goal. I think that such confusion is common, and to be expected. 
In the due course of time, however, the gradual revelation of Union naturally unfolds as modifications of Consciousness peel away the layers of duality thinking through the practices of a consistent Sadhana. This occurs specifically via Samyama, Mantra Japa, and Deep Meditation for most devoted sadhakas.
These spiritual tools serve as a 'bridge' by which one may "cross over" from the illusory perceptions and experiences generated by ordinary, unawakened consciousness.....to the Fully Awakened or Enlightenend Consciousness of Self-Realization experienced in the Union of non-duality. 
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Mar 25 2007 5:42:14 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 6:53:00 PM
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Great thread, thanks Jim and everyone.
The loving intelligent energy that permeates us all from the infinite divine source of oneness, that is everywhere all at once, is the intelligence of non-duality, is the intelligence that draws us to it.
But once we feel a presence of inner silence in our practice we are feeling the non-dual presence of oneness permeating our being as it melts and purifies us and burns away our illusions.
This presence is felt by most of us meditating, it is felt by people praying in church, it is felt as the presence of Christ or Krishna or The Holy Spirit or the The Divine Lady or The Divine Presence of God, when invoked.
The development of inner silence is the development of presence. The developing inner silence or presence is the bridge to its source, the source is oneness.
So for me it is not necessary to have crossed over to oneness in order to experience the dual/non-dual state, it lies in our developing inner silence.
As Yogani says we take this developing inner silence into our daily lives, into our relationships, and this is the dual/non-dual relationship we have with life. This we all have once we have a regular practice.
So for me the dual non-dual thing need not be a big mystery. To me we don't have to understand what it is to have crossed over into non-duality. We all have it in our regular practice, and this is it's beauty.
My 2 cents
Louis
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 11:56:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle:
"But once we feel a presence of inner silence in our practice we are feeling the non-dual presence of oneness permeating our being..."
"The development of inner silence is the development of presence. The developing inner silence or presence is the bridge to its source, the source is oneness."
"So for me it is not necessary to have crossed over to oneness in order to experience the dual/non-dual state...."
Hi Louis:
Clearly, from what you said, you don't think that you started out in the One-ness of non-duality, but instead, began to experience it in the "presence of inner silence", which served as "the bridge" to One-ness. Hence, of your own admission, you gradually "crossed over" from duality based perceptions and experiences to non-dual perceptions and experiences via sadhana practices...just like the rest of us!
As such, for you to state..."So for me it is not necessary to have crossed over to oneness in order to experience the dual/non-dual state" is a self-contradiction and denial of the process you so beautifully described. 
So once again, there really are NO short-cuts or substitutes for a well established sadhana. 
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 04:23:34 AM
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Hi David,
quote:
Did it ever occur to you that you might actually just be someone else's imaginary friend? That one scares the be-jaysus out of me.
If you read much of this non-dual teachings stuff, it becomes pretty clear, pretty quickly that you have always been someone else's imaginary friend. Sorry if that dissapoints you. I think that is why it is advised not to study this stuff too early on as it can be a bit disorientating and confusing, as this thread demonstrates.
Christi |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 05:45:54 AM
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quote:
Doc said: As such, for you to state..."So for me it is not necessary to have crossed over to oneness in order to experience the dual/non-dual state" is a self-contradiction and denial of the process you so beautifully described.
So once again, there really are NO short-cuts or substitutes for a well established sadhana.
Firstly Doc I agree with you 100%, there is no substitute for a well established sadhana, which in my case now is essentially the AYP practices.
The apparent contradiction you refer to is, I think, at the crux of this thing.
A few years back when I first read Tolle's - The Power of Now, one of the big things that struck me was his description of presence and also his descriptions of oneness. At the time I was in the doldrums with regard to this non-dual thing, wondering if it was worth the effort and constant striving for the Holy Grail.
The insight taken from Tolle's words was that the "presence" which I have felt always, from as far back as I can remember is "good enough". It is an aspect of, or the light of, oneness shining through.
This was a beautiful revelation for me because it meant I could just rest in this presence (developing inner silence) and be happy with my practice. It was a mental shift for me to be happy with this "presence". When I became happy that it was enough it instantly deepened, another little surrender.
So what I am saying (maybe not very well) is that we can be happy with our "developing inner silence" our "presence" and just continue our practice in the knowledge that we are actually basking in the light of non-duality when we feel this in us.
If one combines this with the excellent set of practices that Yogani has provided for us, where through self pacing, avoiding the crown and regular sadhana we can efficiently and safely develop our inner silence, it is inevitable that the cross over into the non-dual state will occur. In fact the happier we are with our felt inner silence the more relaxed and deeper we can enter into it.
I have learned to relax and enjoy my developing inner silence, and I have to say it took me a long time to learn this simple thing and recognise it as "enough".
And when I say "enough", it is enough when combined with a well established practice.
Louis
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 06:30:12 AM
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Hey Louis
I dig your calm, clear and non-partisan treatment of this
Neat connecting all these stillness threads from different areas as being manifestations in different contexts of the same phenomenon
Yeh its something we had all along... but as we grew older it kinda got buried and lost for a while (in all the 'this sensory world'/"real life" stuff the adults kept focusing us on  )... but as you say if one kindles the flame and gives it more and more space... Hey presto
No need for us to get lost in words... all we need to do just keep practicing and being calm...
As per an Ajahn Chah quote I posted elsewhere in AYP the other day -
"There is only one book you need to read... the heart"
...the one book certainly is not the head... you will lose yourself forever up there if you are not careful
Peace.
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on Mar 26 2007 06:42:09 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 08:03:03 AM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
Does that mean (as I was pretty sure it does, though i'm not sure of ANYTHING at this point) that he means it's a way of reaching non-duality from within the duality (if so, great...that's my understanding of what yoga is, and I've been doing it for years). Or is he saying something else? And is "crossing over" crossing over from duality to non-duality....i.e. the point at which our dualistic yoga practice leads us to non-dualism?
I always thought that a dual practice was a practice that involves two things, like someone praying to God (2 things), or someone meditating to get somewhere (2 things, someone and somewhere), and that a non-dual practice was a practice that involves one thing (someone).
So a non-dual teacher would never say "pray to god', or "meditate for one hour", they would say "be the love that you are right now in this moment because nothing else is real" or something like that. Non-dual teachers tend to talk a lot, and dual teachers tent to watch people meditating a lot.
And many teachers are both dual and non-dual, so they do a lot of both. Interestingly, the ones who do a lot of both, rarely do both at the same time. So you will hardly ever hear anyone say, "lets all meditate for one hour together, remembering as we do that there is noone here meditating, and that time has always been just part of the dream". Funny that.
So maybe the crossing over that Yogani talks about is when we can see so clearly that we realize that there is noone to pray to, and nowhere to go, and our practice automatically shifts it's focus closer to a direct awareness of the reality of being?
Christi
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 08:32:51 AM
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Christi said:
If you read much of this non-dual teachings stuff, it becomes pretty clear, pretty quickly that you have always been someone else's imaginary friend. Sorry if that dissapoints you. I think that is why it is advised not to study this stuff too early on as it can be a bit disorientating and confusing, as this thread demonstrates.
Christi, I don't really know what your point here is. You did understand that that bit about being someone's imaginary friend was a joke, didn't you?
Just in case anyone is wondering, the bit about peeing higher up on the wall than anyone else here is a joke too.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 26 2007 10:36:01 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 08:44:22 AM
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| Some people find that as their practices deepen and they start to have experiences of That, the Self, there's a familiarity to it, a feeling like "I've been here before..." I used to have the internal sensation of expansive emptiness fairly often, as well as the feeling of a profound presence, but when I tried to explain this to my parents, they talked me out of it, and by the time I was 5 or 6 it was all but gone. (sigh) So yes, the practices are essential for the 'crossover' to non-duality, but I'd call it more of a 'crossing back' to whence we started. And it's not so much that we're developing inner silence, but remembering it. The practices of duality are essentially reductive, clearing away the gook until we start to remember who we really are and always have been. Closing the gap, so to speak. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 08:56:14 AM
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quote:
Jim wrote: All my life I've had a problem with nature. I look at it, sniff it, and aesthetically appreciate it, but pathetically fail to understand how to....be in it. I never feel myself as being in the picture. I feel quite alien to the surroundings, like an astronaut. That's a really good example of duality. A rabbit never has this problem! A reed blowing in the wind does not remark at how windy it is or notice that it's being jostled by an external force. It doesn't perceive a difference between itself and wind. There's no illusion of will or conflict. Both wind and reed are inextricable manifestations of The Way It Is. That's non-duality.
Ah! This is such a great "alienation meter" or "dualism meter"! Thank you for that example. I remember when I was young and read Sartre... in his book "Disgust" (not sure of the English title - perhaps Nausea???) he had exactly that example of alienation. I deeple agreed with him and identified as an existentialist immediately!
Lately, though, I have had some distinct experience of non-dualism with nature. From the beginning of my journey I have always loved trees. I learned to connect with them quickly and now I say hello to all trees who grab my attention energetically. It is very nice. I have soooo many new friends. (One is particulary nice - a female tree I pass on my way to the tube. My hair raises everytime I pass beneith it. It's like getting a blessing everytime I pass.) On a lunch walk in the forest a few weeks ago, I suddenly found myself in a lovely moment - the whole forest, every tree greeted me and loved me, hugged me and *swoop* I knew I was one with the forest, and even the air between the trees, and the rocks, the moss... It was at the other end of the alienation continuum.
Another time I passed under a pine tree. It was blowing, and when I passed I felt in my whole body how it felt to have the wind blowing between the needles!!! It was as if I melted together with the pine and WAS it for a moment.
Short moments of non-dualism in nature.
Otherwise, I find my reaction to this thread interesting. I only see lots of people saying the same thing over and over again, in different words, trying to correct each other, while they are all correct, all in agreement and all equally in need to express themselves. I see beautiful minds babbling about truth while it is under/in/between the words all the time... Thank you for creating this thread.
I am so soft and wimpy... I get tears in my eyes... (Guess it's time for my period soon... )
/emc, the rabbit |
Edited by - emc on Mar 26 2007 08:59:34 AM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 09:02:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle:
"So what I am saying (maybe not very well) is that we can be happy with our "developing inner silence" our "presence" and just continue our practice in the knowledge that we are actually basking in the light of non-duality when we feel this in us."
Hi Louis:
Agreed! And I think you said it very well!
Hari OM!
Doc
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 12:25:20 PM
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EMC, I was once spending an afternoon in an incredibly beautiful forest with a bunch of musicians. They spent the whole drive up to the forest complaining bitterly and enthusiastically about bandleaders who owed them money. We got out of the car, walked into the woods, and the indignant conversation continued.
Finally, I said "Hey, look, guys...we're in this incredible forest, and those people are far, far away. Can we just enjoy being where we are?" Everyone grinned and looked abash. Yeah, Jim, of course, you're right!
And there was awed nature silence for about 15 seconds.
And then the trumpet player blurted out: "But the WORST of them is Hubie. Any of you guys ever work for Hubie?!?".....and it continued full force. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 26 2007 12:27:27 PM |
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glagbo
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 3:09:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Finally, I said "Hey, look, guys...we're in this incredible forest, and those people are far, far away. Can we just enjoy being where we are?"........
And there was awed nature silence for about 15 seconds.
Hi Jim:
I love quiet, beautiful forests too. I almost chose "Forest Bunny" as my AYP username then decided against it for some reason. Another alternative was Yogonin, which means "Male Deva/Fetich" in my native language. But that could easily be confused with Yogani, and so was also dropped.
Jim, I am sorry for using the “fake” word in that previous post. I guess I still need to work on fine-tuning my linguistics and Yogic conversational protocols.
Also, I alluded to the length of my "xx years of so-called practices" not as any bragging right to yogic achievements, but au contraire, to contrast it with the little apparent progress/results, may be due to mental dissections/hyperbolae, mood making, and still-unresolved resistance to all this surrendering thing.
David said:
Just in case anyone is wondering, the bit about peeing higher up on the wall than anyone else here is a joke too.
I think I understood the true meaning behind the joke as an illustration of the silliness and near-irrelevance of the number of the years of practices some of us keep bringing up like cavemen’s appeasement trophies.
On the other hand, if you try to pee too high up the wall, you may end up under a fine little pee rain, an instant external Amaroli for you.
BRV.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 4:01:39 PM
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BTW, I'm not singling you out, glagbo on that peeing-up the wall thing. Put a few males together and there is nearly always some element of it.
On the other hand, if you try to pee too high up the wall, you may end up under a fine little pee rain, an instant external Amaroli for you.
LOL. That's moderately naughty, glagbo, but since you show some creativity, I'll take it from you with good grace, while I shake your hand and shake like a wet puppy-dog.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 4:09:16 PM
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Thanks Mike and Doc for your replies.
Meg said: quote:
Some people find that as their practices deepen and they start to have experiences of That, the Self, there's a familiarity to it, a feeling like "I've been here before..." I used to have the internal sensation of expansive emptiness fairly often, as well as the feeling of a profound presence, but when I tried to explain this to my parents, they talked me out of it, and by the time I was 5 or 6 it was all but gone. (sigh) So yes, the practices are essential for the 'crossover' to non-duality, but I'd call it more of a 'crossing back' to whence we started. And it's not so much that we're developing inner silence, but remembering it. The practices of duality are essentially reductive, clearing away the gook until we start to remember who we really are and always have been. Closing the gap, so to speak.
Hi Meg, so if you had the choice to go back to when you were born, presumably in a state of oneness, would this be your choice.?
Louis |
Edited by - Sparkle on Mar 26 2007 4:10:45 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 5:00:18 PM
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Now if you can suck it back in, before it hits the ground, then we'll talk:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 26 2007 5:18:44 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 5:28:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Now if you can suck it back in, before it hits the ground, then we'll talk:
Sorry VIL!  No can do, man.  It's a 'One Way' trip only!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Mar 26 2007 6:01:49 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 5:46:54 PM
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Gosh, I must've accidentally walked into the men's locker room. But now that I'm here, could one of you explain to me why it's a GOOD thing to pee higher than the next guy? Or maybe I don't want to know...
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Hi Meg, so if you had the choice to go back to when you were born, presumably in a state of oneness, would this be your choice.?
Hi Louis! Not sure if you're asking the question in jest, but I'll respond anyway. I'd prefer to be in a state of oneness, and by that I mean I'd like to be enlightened. But if I had the choice of going backwards and having it happen in my early years, versus moving forward and having it happen in my later years, I'd choose the latter. Just like I'd prefer to build my own riches than be born into wealth...it's simply more interesting to me. There's my 2 cents, Louis! :) |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 6:27:03 PM
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quote:
...it's simply more interesting to me.
I guess that says it all Meg, couldn't agree more.
BTW, it was a bit of both, jesting seriously |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 8:16:13 PM
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Meg said:
But now that I'm here, could one of you explain to me why it's a GOOD thing to pee higher than the next guy? Or maybe I don't want to know...
Because "who can pee the lowest" doesn't work nicely as a competition. Now you understand us finally?
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 9:09:14 PM
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Hi Meg!
Well, in the mysterious world of male psychology, there apparently is a mental and emotional correlation between the volume strength and distance projection of a man's urinary stream and his likely sexual virility, probably due to the multi-tasking capability of the male genitalia! Go figure!
And incidentally, Meg, these posts were really quite tame compared to what would typically be heard in a men's locker room, on a guy's night out at the local tavern, or at most other all-male gatherings virtually anywhere in the world.
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Mar 26 2007 10:36:17 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 12:08:26 AM
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Can't help it. I woke up 04.00 this morning with this joke in my head. It is a bad one. Watch out. I just feel it was like a message from the source when I woke up that early with only that in my head. I think it might be a response to megs question:
God gathered Adam and Eve in the paradise. He generously wanted to give them a gift each, and they were to choose which one they wanted.
- First, I got the ability to stand and pee...
- YEAH!!! I want THAT one! shouted Adam quickly!
- Good! Then you'll have it, said God.
Adam ran away in great joy. With tremendous happiness he tried out his new ability, ran around peing a little here, a little there... In a bush, painting in the sand, up on a tree (weeeeeeeee, he could really get it high!!! )
Eve had been patiently watching, enjoying what she saw, but eventually she turned to God and asked:
- What is my gift, God?
- Multiple orgasms, Eve, multiple orgasms...
(No, this is no fueling of the war between the sexes. It is only your projections if you interpret it that way! )
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Edited by - emc on Mar 29 2007 3:12:53 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 01:03:24 AM
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Hi david,
quote:
David wrote:
Christi said:
If you read much of this non-dual teachings stuff, it becomes pretty clear, pretty quickly that you have always been someone else's imaginary friend. Sorry if that dissapoints you. I think that is why it is advised not to study this stuff too early on as it can be a bit disorientating and confusing, as this thread demonstrates.
Christi, I don't really know what your point here is. You did understand that that bit about being someone's imaginary friend was a joke, didn't you?
Yes, I did realize it was a joke, and my reply was partially in jest, but then I realized that on an existential level, it's about as close to the truth as you're ever going to get.
There was a famous teacher who lived in south India, who used to say, "continually ask yourself :Who am I if I am not someone else's imaginary friend. This will lead you to God". Then he later abreviated it to "continually ask yourself: Who am I". This will lead you to God".
It's a useful meditation, and it doesn't really matter which one you use.
Christi |
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Yogani's Dual/Non-Dual Distinction
