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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2007 : 4:00:49 PM
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Gandhi:quote:
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated"
Byron Katie on cruelty to animals:
quote:
Q: So I'm wondering if suffering really is an experience of the mind and not the body? Do I understand you correctly that the consciousness of animals is not ours, that they don't suffer mentally the way we do with our stories?
A: All suffering is mental. It has nothing to do with the body or with a person’s circumstances. You can be in great pain without any suffering at all. How do you know you’re supposed to be in pain? Because that’s what’s happening. To live without a stressful story, to be a lover of what is, even in pain—that’s heaven. To be in pain and believe that you shouldn’t be in pain—that’s hell. Pain is actually a friend. It’s nothing I want to get rid of, if I can’t. It’s a sweet visitor; it can stay as long as it wants to. (And that doesn’t mean I won’t take a Tylenol.)
Even pain is projected: it’s always on its way out. Can your body hurt when you’re not conscious? When you’re in pain and the phone rings and it’s the call you’ve been waiting for, you mentally focus on the phone call, and there’s no pain. If your thinking changes, the pain changes.
Hm. I do not get this. I am not sensitive to human suffering anylonger. In fact, I have never been! Torture, killings, mass murder, rape, incest, whatever. I don't raise an eyebrow. And with the spiritual insights that pain has a purpose and actually is love, it touches me even less. Not that I favor it in any way - ahimsa is the basic principle here! I am just not emotionally upset about it. But animals... whoo.. that's another story!  I can still not emotionally handle cruelty to animals. My simple question is: WHY?
Is Katie really sane here? She is giving examples of human reactions to pain in an answer about animals. Animals show with their behavior that pain is not "heaven" for them. They do tell stories, since they shun and avoid pain or those who give them pain. They are conditioned and are not able to read forums to get help moving beyond conditioning. If pain is given - they suffer. And I do not understand why. For humans pain is a signal for waking up. What is the purpose for animals? Is it their karma system that says some has to suffer from human cruelty?
My emotions are probably triggered by projections of my own pain somehow, but still... I can't get passed the total meaningless action of torturing animals and get upset about it.
Please... help? |
Edited by - emc on Mar 05 2007 4:03:27 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2007 : 6:02:08 PM
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Byron Katie said: All suffering is mental. It has nothing to do with the body or with a person’s circumstances. You can be in great pain without any suffering at all.
Well, EMC, I for one would also find it very hard to defend what Byron Katie is saying.
Sometimes reading Byron Katie, I get the impression that she is saying that the root idea that something is not as it should be, is the source of suffering. If that's so, I don't buy it -- not literally anyway. I mean, what does that mean, on the face of it? Does it mean that pain can be entirely eliminated by removing such a root idea? I don't believe that in general it can. However, her methods can be useful to certain people at certain times.
If she had just said something like 'there are spiritual states in which the level of pain/suffering becomes very independent of physical circumstances', I would agree with her that far. If that's really what she means, I'm on board.
But the pain/suffering split is I believe actually just an odd semantic device masquerading as a philosophical principle. In normal definitions of pain, pain contains suffering by definition. If you split them definitionally, what have you done? What are you talking about?
If a person takes heroin or other strong opiates, they can experience strong 'pain' without suffering much -- that is, you could stick a pin in their finger and they wouldn't be very much bothered by it. So you can say they are then feeling pain without suffering, but another way of looking at it is that they have less pain. The opiate is a 'painkiller' and as such reduces the suffering. It is a suffering-killer, in another word.
Some spiritual states may create similar brain-states to the person on a strong opiate. That is, they suffer less --- their brain pain-kills --- or suffering-kills, which is the same thing in certain meanings of the word. It's certainly known that when a person is 'in love' for example, their brain releases pain-killing drugs. So they feel less pain. Byron Katie may have experienced or may be experiencing states such as that.
However, being in a state such as that has everything to do with the body. Not necessarily the observable state of the body, but the precise behavior of the nervous system -- the presence or not of an enlightened state. The business of deliberately letting go of the notion that things are not as they should be, may be a useful catalyst at certain times for the development of such a state. But it is not the be-all and end-all, and not a cure-all for the elimination of suffering.
>> In fact, I have never been! Torture, killings, mass murder, rape, incest, whatever. I don't raise an eyebrow. ... But animals... whoo.. that's another story! I can still not emotionally handle cruelty to animals. My simple question is: WHY?
I don't know why one bothers you more than the other. I can only say that I see human beings and animals both as animals. We are animals after all -- just a kind of ape. A clever kind of ape -- but there was a continuum of development from the other apes to us.
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2007 : 9:21:44 PM
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quote:
>> In fact, I have never been! Torture, killings, mass murder, rape, incest, whatever. I don't raise an eyebrow. ... But animals... whoo.. that's another story! I can still not emotionally handle cruelty to animals. My simple question is: WHY?
I'm the same with animals and I think it's because of the innocence factor I put on it...same with children....I have very similar responses to the suffering/pain of animals as I do to little ones who happen to be human....I realize that I'm not entirely logical/rational in having this response and certainly it would not stand up to reasonable questioning...karmically, suffering is suffering and pain is pain... |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2007 : 10:43:46 PM
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Hi EMC/ David,
To me Katie's statement makes sense if you make a distinction with how she is using pain v. suffering. Remember words are only pointers to things (objects, meanings, etc.) not the actual things themselves, so people often have different ideas of what words mean hence resulting confusion when the meaning of one word is different for two people.
I see suffering as the mind re-living pain of the past to create pain in the present. Pain to me is what is happening now. Of course an animal will feel pain as we humans do and react accordingly as we would instinctively. A human can suffer for years as a result of remembering pain, re-living it repeatedly and allowing the pain to be in the present and affect current behaviors. Having loved and then experiencing heart break might be a good example of this, being afraid to be “hurt” again. Having broken a leg skiing might permanently put someone off of skiing. Obviously there are limitless possibilities. There is no guarantee that either of these two activities will lead to pain again but we suffer at the thought of it. One thing is clear, the mind can perpetuate pain indefinitely and suffer as a result well past when the pain occurred.
EMC wrote:
"For humans pain is a signal for waking up. What is the purpose for animals?"
To me suffering is a signal for waking up and pain is a signal to avoid what hurts!
I'm certain I haven't covered it all, but I can only add that if we somehow had the ability to totally detatch all fear and associated reactions to a painful experience, that I can't be certain I wouldn't suffer at all from it or experience the pain as just "being there" and not something other than an important message from my body.
A
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2007 : 02:29:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by blujett8
quote:
>> In fact, I have never been! Torture, killings, mass murder, rape, incest, whatever. I don't raise an eyebrow. ... But animals... whoo.. that's another story! I can still not emotionally handle cruelty to animals. My simple question is: WHY?
I'm the same with animals and I think it's because of the innocence factor I put on it...same with children....I have very similar responses to the suffering/pain of animals as I do to little ones who happen to be human....I realize that I'm not entirely logical/rational in having this response and certainly it would not stand up to reasonable questioning...karmically, suffering is suffering and pain is pain...
Yes, I think this is right on target.
What kind of "love" is it that you have for animals ?
How is this love different from the love you have for humans ?
How do you react when you see an animal killing another animal ?
Or killing a human ?
What about a cat playing with a mouse and not killing the mouse
immediately ?
What about children inflicting pain to animals ?
Just some food for thought. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2007 : 4:02:46 PM
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Hm... Thanks for your thoughts!
The "innocence" is close I think... I can buy Katie's reasoning FOR HUMANS! We have a mind that can tell stories about the past and create suffering over and over again, as Anthem points out. I remember Katrine who said in a post that pain does not exist - it is only our stories about it that hurts. I have even experienced physical pain to be but interesting when I meditated on it. It even disappeared eventually!
Children are innocent, but we created "childhood" to be the period in life where we gather wounds and stories, so we have something to work on later in order to become enlightened. Children getting hurt is their karma - they will be able to get over it. And the hurt comes from others creating more karma for themselves in samsara tivoli. I couldn't care less. Everything is exactly as it should be, and will change when people reach a higher consciousness and start living in awareness, adopting ahimsa as their guiding principle.
On the ranking scale of innocence, animals are the most innocent! They don't have a mind to interpret what's going on. They trust humans and are betrayed. They have a mind that can make stories about pains in the past, but they cannot erase those stories in any way! Animals have a different consciousness, they say... do they? Not with respect to pain, I'd say. Then animals seem to function very much like humans.
The kind of love I have for animals is based on this reasoning. I love them because they are even more helpless than children - they are, as are children, totally in our care, but have no possibility to "fix" the wounds later in life. Children do have that possibility. It's even the purpose of human suffering.
Animals killing eachother or even humans is no problem. That's life.
Children inflicting pain to animals is also more ok. A child is not aware.
Humans being cruel on purpose - especially when it is for amusement - upsets me the most! When they first pull out the claws on bears in Bangladesh and then let dogs fight the bear to see how long it takes before it dies, I go bananas! When they do the same thing with cats (putting tape on cats' paws)and then let fighting dogs train on them) I go furious. Now I see I do have more of a "They should understand better..."-attitude toward those who are cruel. But then of course one could say that all adults acting cruel to animals are also unaware of what they are doing, as are children. "Father, forgive them..." But still..... the purpose from the animal's perspective? Is it for the "ride" of being on earth feeling pain, then?
Bah I'm down to: "Be wise enough to drop what you don't understand. Animals have their part to play on earth. Some suffer from human cruelty, so what?"
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 03:44:18 AM
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Hi EMC,
quote:
Is Katie really sane here? She is giving examples of human reactions to pain in an answer about animals.
To be fair to Katie here, it does seem that she has chosen to answer the first part of the question, about pain and suffering, and has not answered the second part about animals.
I have experienced what Katie is talking about. I have felt pain, and suffered because of it, then felt my consciousness shift (upward fast), and suddenly, no suffering. But the physical sensations where still there. I could still feel the same nerve signals shooting up my leg, but after the consciousness shift, I experienced the whole thing as the movement of energy and experienced no suffering at all. Maybe this is why Katie chooses to use the two words, suffering and pain, to make it clear that nothing changes except our experience of it (or rather, our relationship to it).
Christi |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 08:15:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi EMC,
quote:
Is Katie really sane here? She is giving examples of human reactions to pain in an answer about animals.
To be fair to Katie here, it does seem that she has chosen to answer the first part of the question, about pain and suffering, and has not answered the second part about animals.
I have experienced what Katie is talking about. I have felt pain, and suffered because of it, then felt my consciousness shift (upward fast), and suddenly, no suffering. But the physical sensations where still there. I could still feel the same nerve signals shooting up my leg, but after the consciousness shift, I experienced the whole thing as the movement of energy and experienced no suffering at all. Maybe this is why Katie chooses to use the two words, suffering and pain, to make it clear that nothing changes except our experience of it (or rather, our relationship to it).
Christi
I agree with you Christie. I can see what she is saying.. could not figure out why the animal part was required.. but it maybe because the question was phrased that way..
Pain and suffering.. don't have to go hand in glove.. You can feel pain, but you don't really have to suffer.. Jim had pointed this out some time back in a thread.. let me see if I can find it. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 08:35:16 AM
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| I totally agree on the difference between pain and suffering. I have also felt a very at first painful kidney stone attack that with awareness changed to be an experience without suffering. So I did not flee the experience. I let it go through me. My observation of animals show that animals do not stay in pain like that. They flee pain. They do not accept it as a state that is like "heaven". They seem to tell stories about suffering and avoid painful situations. If they accepted pain as an experience without suffering they would not have to flee, would they? |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 6:22:32 PM
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Hi to All ~
Here's a link to an excellent book about Ahimsa by the late Sri Swami Sivananda of the Divine Life Society.
http://www.dlshq.org/teachings/ahimsa.htm
Regards ~
Doc |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2007 : 01:44:36 AM
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| I found this line in a spiritiual article in a newspaper: Preoccupation with hurt halts healing process. Our hurt is a defence mechanism of the ego asking for protection as its existence is threatened. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2007 : 05:58:48 AM
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Thanks a lot, Doc. Nice link!
And a great reminder, Maximus... I know the ego will try to convince me that earth is a horrible place. Cruelty to animals is its smartest weapon against me right now!  |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 08:25:43 AM
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I agree with you entirely.
Im stil pretty young and a novice along the Yogic path, but I have always felt a strange absence of sympathy for human atrocity. Part of it I think is due to a certain contempt I have for the human world and in my eyes they are somewhat blackened, and I think this leads to my intolorance of animal cruelty at the hands of human beings. I figure if humans are able enough to rape/molest/torture/manipulate/steal/ect eachother, why should they spread these evils to the animal kingdom? But then again, the child does not necessarily have these traits innate, perhaps not even carnivorous tendencies, so its somewhat of a vicious cycle. I chalk it up to the good old duality of Good and Evil and hope things will turn out for the best. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 10:30:40 AM
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I figure if humans are able enough to rape/molest/torture/manipulate/steal/ect eachother, why should they spread these evils to the animal kingdom?
I see it totally differently. Turned on its head, in fact. I believe every manner of attrocity and nastinesss human beings have is something that developed in our natural, evolutionary past and we just haven't gotten rid of it yet.
Whatever is saying 'we must not be cruel to animals' is new -- it is specifically human. Whatever is being cruel to animals fits in to the pattern of all animals -- they take care of their own survival without any care whatsoever for the consequence on any other animal -- except kin and friends, which are allies in a shared survival project.
It's time for us to 'become all we can be', that's all.
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 4:32:51 PM
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My point being that if we are to call ourselves human beings and distinguish ourselves from "lesser" animals, why then should we spread our primordial boredom to the animal kingdom and not simply contain in it our own species?
And to say something is cruel or malicious is to assume that there is a higher conciousness that could well differentiate between primitive survival and meaningless cruelty. When a tiger attacks an elk or whatever it is apparent it is done somewhat mindlessly and simply to satisfy hunger with an apparent disability to adapt a more humane diet. Case in point being the China Panda who is on the verge of exstinction because it cannot adapt to a diet not of a rare bamboo. If we are to say we are human and, thus, of a higher conciousness and able to make decisions; we should be able to differentiate between survival and evil. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 11:09:12 PM
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I'm not sure I am following you entirely Anthony.
And to say something is cruel or malicious is to assume that there is a higher conciousness that could well differentiate between primitive survival and meaningless cruelty.
But I don't believe that. I believe that deep malice, and even schadenfreude, or pleasure in the pain of another, exists in the animal (non-human) kingdom. I think the evidence for that is very high. It's a common bromide to claim otherwise, but I'm not sure how closely people have examined the evidence. It's questionable that animals have no capacity for higher consciousness, but even if it were true, I don't think it diminishes the reality of their malice.
BTW, I would highly recommend reading 'The Blank Slate' by Stephen Pinker.
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2007 : 03:59:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
It's questionable that animals have no capacity for higher consciousness,
The question we should ask ourselves is: do animal have any consciousness ?
To ask if animals have higher (or lower) consciousness is misleading.
And anyway, who decides what higher consciousness is ?
Do we agree that animals have indeed some kind of consciousness ?
And this of course leads to the question what kind of consciousness
do I have ?!
Is communication a sign of consciousness ?
I am sure most of us believe that communication between humans
and animals does take place.
When I believe it, then it should be clear that animals do
have consciousness. Why else should I communicate with something
that has no consciousness ?
May be even inate matter does have some kind of consciousness !?
But this may be a distraction from the most interesting point that
animal can seem to show maliciousness, schadenfreude, pleasure in
the pain of others ... |
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Ahimsa, cruelty to animals, and emotional response
