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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 14 2007 : 6:17:33 PM
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Hi everyone,
This not a put down of Gurus.... I know
there are some great ones out there so please do not think I am being
disrespectful... I am just wondering..
Why is it that so many "enlightened" gurus who have become such powerhouses,
have sex with their female devotees, which oftentimes is against the very code they talk of.
I know of many who have ended up being discredited because of this. Is it that they
aren't truly enlightened?, or is it that they are enlightened and realise it
doesn't really matter when you get to a certain level (even though they often
cause pain for the devotee)?
I don't know... any thoughts?
Babaly
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Hunter
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2007 : 7:09:43 PM
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I too have wondered about the very questions that you ask, though I do not have any answers.
Regardless of the answers, I think that the example of a "strayed" teacher/guru is a great opportunity for me to constantly question everything about myself and to further strip myself of assumptions. Assumptions about life, living, loving, enlightenment, God, human nature, meditation, spiritual path, desires, everything, etc, etc, etc...
The more that I use these opportunities for positive growth, the more I want to continue in my meditation practice and greater is my feeling of JOY!!! 
May this subject become a pathway for healing, understanding, and growth.
Love, Hunter |
Edited by - Hunter on Feb 14 2007 7:21:43 PM |
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shivakm
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2007 : 8:53:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Babaly
Why is it that so many "enlightened" gurus who have become such powerhouses,
have sex with their female devotees, which oftentimes is against the very code they talk of.
I do not know personally of any "Enlightened Gurus" that slept with their devotees. Even if they did, my question to you is, why are you bothered about the so called "Enlightened Masters" (that they are enlightened itself is just nothing but our own belief and our minds conditioning. If at all something that existed as enlightenment. What I mean to say is that we are perceiving with our own mind that some one is enlightened and expect a certain standard from them. We demand perfection from enlightened masters) and their personal life? Please read my comments about getting into the personal life of masters and measuring them with our own scales in another topic (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2).
Also check out the lesson where Yogani discusses the difference between enlightenment and perfection (http://www.aypsite.org/260.html). This lesson is really wonderful. One can be enlightened but that does not necessarily mean that he/she is perfect. Any one who is in the form of body and mind is susceptible to the pitfalls and shortcomings that we all face. So, why do we demand perfection from enlightened masters at all? Why are we so quick to judge them? Has not one of the greatest enlightened master pointed out to us, "Judge not lest ye be judged."?
Shiva. |
Edited by - shivakm on Feb 15 2007 12:07:03 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2007 : 10:00:08 PM
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| I was just wondering since when is sex not for the enlightened? |
Edited by - Anthem on Feb 14 2007 10:50:51 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2007 : 5:31:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I was just wondering since when is sex not for the enlightened?
Thanks Anthem,
I have no problem with sex for the enlightened, I think it's great
I'm concerned with teachers who have said look... "no sex for you, look at me I don't have sex and I have attained this attainment" and then they go and misuse their power over some devotee who believes they are God and wounds them deeply.
But this is a crazy world and this stuff happens all the time - so whatever...
I suppose my real questioning is on someone who has attained a great state and from their culture and background sex is a no no, why do they succumb when there is such a great store of estastic energy to keep them blissed out higher than any sexual encounter?
Just wanted to dialog about it.... no judgement
Babaly |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2007 : 5:46:28 PM
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Thanks Shiva,
I read both your links and especially loved Yogani's take.
I suppose I would hate to attain liberation and then to find I was still the same fool as I am now. That would be a bummer
Anyway, I have known one and I've seen the misery it caused. Just didn't feel very enlightened.
Babaly
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
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shivakm
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2007 : 10:10:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Babaly
I would hate to attain liberation and then to find I was still the same fool as I am now. That would be a bummer
I feel that I would be the same fool even if I attain enlightenment. But only it will not matter any more.  or at least I hope so.
Shiva. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2007 : 10:57:06 PM
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quote:
I'm concerned with teachers who have said look... "no sex for you, look at me I don't have sex and I have attained this attainment" and then they go and misuse their power over some devotee who believes they are God and wounds them deeply.
Hi Babaly,
Just wondering, why be concerned about such teachers? It sounds to me that they are working things out (their own particular "issues") like the rest of us here. There are plenty of examples in life where all of us are likely to have misused our own power at one time or another. Besides a person will have a tough time using their power over us unless we let them. If they succeed we might ask ourselves what we were looking for from them, is it possible we may have misused our own power over them in some way?
quote:
I suppose my real questioning is on someone who has attained a great state and from their culture and background sex is a no no, why do they succumb when there is such a great store of estastic energy to keep them blissed out higher than any sexual encounter?
How do we really know when someone has attained a "great state"? Is it when they tell us or when we think they have? If they have in fact attained a "great state" would it be because they came from a culture and background where sex is forbidden? Are there examples of people who have attained a "great state" that have come from backgrounds where they had plenty of sex?
More importantly, what do you believe?
A
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crab
India
5 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2007 : 09:36:24 AM
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True Gurus generally have complete mastery over themselves - and generally, they have mastered the state of Nirbikalpa samadhi. In that state of consciousness, they have no need earthly pleasures, since the bliss they experience is infinitely more pleasurable. They have erased all their need for earthly desires.
Having said that, sex is not denied for such people. They go for it only for purposes of procreation - This is generally when they are leading the life of a householder. One example could be Lord Krishna.
Since true Gurus have perfected themselves, they never have selfish desires. Basically, they don't expect anything from the disciples. They do everything possible to lead their disciples to perfect self-realization. |
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2007 : 12:57:12 PM
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quote:
Since true Gurus have perfected themselves, they never have selfish desires. Basically, they don't expect anything from the disciples. They do everything possible to lead their disciples to perfect self-realization.
I would agree that this an ideal |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 04:07:30 AM
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Hi Crab,
Welcome to the forum
Christi |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 3:46:39 PM
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Hi Crab,
Welcome to the forum.
I appreciate your input.
My issue is with "enlightened gurus" who are swamis and renunciants - maybe I didn't make that clear. Where they have made an oath to be celibate.
Maybe... they weren't truly enlightened in the first place or maybe they were and then "fell off the wagon" because of karma or some other personal reason.
I want to state strongly I have no issues with spirituality, enlightenment and sex, as that is the route I am taking as a householder.... just wanted to find some answers to something that has been bothering me for a long time.
I think maybe underneath it all I have underestimated the power of sex.
Many thanks all,
Babaly |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 3:48:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by shivakm
quote:
Originally posted by Babaly
I would hate to attain liberation and then to find I was still the same fool as I am now. That would be a bummer
I feel that I would be the same fool even if I attain enlightenment. But only it will not matter any more. or at least I hope so.
Shiva.
LOL:-) Good one Shiva! |
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shivakm
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2007 : 12:50:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Babaly
quote:
Shiva:
I feel that I would be the same fool even if I attain enlightenment. But only it will not matter any more. or at least I hope so.
LOL:-) Good one Shiva!
To be honest, thats not my original thought. I think that I borrowed that thought from some enlightened teacher (Can't really remember which one!). Anyway I seriously believe that it is true.
Shiva.
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 01:20:53 AM
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Just to get some perspective. These gurus are predominantly men, if not always. As such they are given a lot of leeway. I have never heard of a woman given the freedom to be promiscuous with followers and still considered Enlightened. Perhaps we need to re-examine our own views about sexuality in light of our cultural prejudices. I believe we should be able to expect exemplary conduct from the Enlightened to give the word any meaning worthy of its name. Otherwise what is the purpose of the spiritual path?
I have come to understand that sex is a very great challenge for men and perhaps that is why we revere a one if he succeeds in celibacy AND purity of intention. We women for the most part like sex for the cuddling even when there is a strong libido, sex is just different for us.
Jill
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 07:52:08 AM
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Sex isn't the same for all men or for all women. Everybody's different. It's just more likely for men to take advantage of others because testosterone tends to make us not be sensitive to others. It was built into us that way because not caring about others helps us to protect those close to us. Ironic, huh?
The problem of sex and gurus really stems from putting gurus on a pedestal to begin with. It's funny actually, because one person gets rid of their ego for a while and realises nobody is special. So people think that's great; this person must be special, and they put him on a pedestal, then they expect certain behavior from him.
Of course the guru allows it, so it's half his fault. And it's more than half his fault for taking advantage of his followers. But sex is just one issue of many. He is taking advantage every day by letting people believe he is special. What he really may be is just a teacher,
same as any occupation. If hardly anybody was an electrician, people would think we're special, and put us on pedestals.
Now, gurus who won't be put on a pedestal or allow themselves to be called gurus are the ones who are really special......heh heh
Let's just admire people who do well at anything without expecting any future special behavior from them. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 07:18:19 AM
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I just found this quote from Christi in another thread on radiance relevant for this thread:
quote:
Even beautiful women still tempt me (usually successfuly) so this kind of thing doesn't make life any easier. This could explain why so many have fallen from the path, because occult powers manifest long before there has been any significant reduction in ego identity.
It made me think like this: perhaps this phenomenon of "using others sexually" occurs in people that are on very high energy levels. They attract people, but still are fighting with their egos and desires (sexuality and beautiful women seems to be the most difficult to detach from), and then: to actually have a lot of physical ejaculation-sex is just their natural way to self-pace? In order to feel good they have to self-pace A LOT! And then they are stuck in a viscious circle. Just an idea....
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 10:02:31 AM
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May be some of the socalled "enlightened" ones have a certain belief-system
about sexuality which imprisons them and makes them belief that they know
all about the truth, yet in fact it imprisons them.
just my idea ... |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 10:31:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
It made me think like this: perhaps this phenomenon of "using others sexually" occurs in people that are on very high energy levels. They attract people, but still are fighting with their egos and desires (sexuality and beautiful women seems to be the most difficult to detach from), and then: to actually have a lot of physical ejaculation-sex is just their natural way to self-pace? In order to feel good they have to self-pace A LOT! And then they are stuck in a viscious circle. Just an idea....
Heh. To digress, that sounds a little bit like one of the rationales offered by swami rama's followers. He was so awash in male energy from his celibacy that he needed to ground himself in female yonis to balance the polarity.
It's a great line. If it were true, he probably should have just used it, rather than opt for thuggish inimidation....so much classier.... |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 02 2007 10:31:22 AM |
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Gurus, Sex and Enlightenment
