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Reno2233
USA
10 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 11 2024 : 01:39:10 AM
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Hello Fellow AYPers!
I'm seeing many benefits and changes as a result of my daily core practices (DM and SBP). I?m dedicated in my practice and my hope is that my growing Bhakti will lead me the rest of the way. Well I recently decided to engage in a solo tantric practice?using the holdback method through the duration. In my later sitting practice, I noticed an abundance of pleasure and ecstasy. I'm talking energetic bliss at an intense level never felt before. Much more than my usual sitting sessions without tantric stimulation. I'm am very excited to move forward as I've now experienced the connection between tantra practice (no ejaculation) and increased ecstasy in daily practice and life. Despite this there is one glaring piece that conflicts me greatly.
PORN.
My question is simple and relates to the solo tantric practices. What are the views and opinions of using pornographic images/videos during solo tantric practice? Should it be included or dropped entirely?
I?ve always had a drawing to porn and lust since my teenage years. Actively trying to combat it as of the last couple years with stretches of success and failure.. However, the tantric practices in combination with DM and SBP have brought it into a new light. It?s as if I see a way to use porn if it arises and use the holdback method to stay preorgasmic, thus strengthening my core sitting practice?introducing more and more pleasure. At the same time I see a potential detriment to this as well, along the lines of impurity and spiritual clouding.
What is the ultimate view on porn use with tantric practice in a spiritual and AYP sense? |
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elderberry
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2024 : 5:14:16 PM
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Hey Reno,
In many ways, I feel like I'm in the same boat as you. I'm a late 20s male on the AYP spiritual path. To say I have a strong sex drive would be the understatement of a lifetime.
For me, there is an extremely obvious push/pull relationship between my sexuality and my spiritual development. Nothing seems to enhance my spiritual development like a good integration of tantric principles. Similarly, nothing seems to distract from my spiritual practices more than following my sex drive to it's "natural" inclinations (pornography, chasing meaningless relationships for the sake of sex, etc).
I've come to view tantra as bit of a unique spiritual practice in that both its effects and difficulty of implementation are going to vary wildly from person to person. In other words, I would argue the average 20 year old male would have a substantially harder time implementing tantra over the long term than say, a 60 year old male. The same can be said for two 20 year old males with radically different sex drives. However the degree of difficulty to implement seems to scale with the degree of reward you get from it. A 20 year old male with a high sex drive who is able to successfully implement a practice of tantra is going to be pouring jet fuel on his spiritual development in a way that someone with a tantric practice + a lower sex drive might not.
This is all to say, my aim is to reframe your point of view a little bit. The greater your desire to watch porn (or any other similar sexual act), the greater your reward will be if you're able to overcome that desire and integrate your sexuality in a more fruitful manner. In that sense, tantra is a practice which is very "pay to play".
Now, to answer your question directly.
Often times in the AYP forums, we tend to give somewhat "on the fence" answers. We seem to shy away from giving hardcore yes or no answers to questions like this because, well, the guru is in you as yogani might say. Ultimately, its up for you to decide what feels right in your own body. This is one thing I love most about the AYP forums. We are so open minded to so many different ways of doing this. However, this will not be one of those answers.
Don't watch porn.
My reasoning for this is both spiritual and non-spiritual. For context, I completely cut out porn about 6 years ago. Which was 4 years prior to really starting my spiritual journey.
1. Leaving spirituality aside for a moment, porn really does screw with the male brain in my opinion. As a young man, every single cell in your body is screaming for sexual satisfaction. Pornography hijacks these impulses in a manner which is deeply addictive and overstimulating. Scientists can demonstrate observable difference in the brains men who watch porn vs. those who don't under MRI scans, similar to differences observed in drug addicts. If you'd like to look at the science behind this, I would recommend googling "yourbrainonporn" and looking through a few of the studies.
Allow me to be clear, I have zero ethical hangups around porn. This is purely from the perspective of the mental health of the individual consuming it.
Onto the spiritual side of things:
2. Porn is counterproductive to the macro goal of tantra. Continued use of porn reduces the overall amount of sexual energy in the body. I can prove this with the following experiment:
- Watch porn every day for a week. Or if you're already watching porn, than you're good to go.
- Masturbate (without porn) or have sex with a partner and take note of the amount of sexual energy in your body.
- Take a 30 day break from watching porn. Do not change anything else in your sexual lifestyle. Keep ejaculating as normal. Otherwise we are mixing too many variables.
- Masturbate without porn or have sex with a partner. Take note of the amount of sexual energy in your body.
I would bet the farm that the second time around you will feel a massive increase in sexual energy in your body. Exact same stimulus, significantly more flows of sexual energy.
This sexual energy is the fuel of tantra. We want to preserve and cultivate it as much as possible. In my experience, porn tends to overstimulate and addict the mind, thereby suppressing this energy.
3. On the micro level of tantra. As you get more developed in your tantra practice, you will start playing with your sexual energy more. As a small example, in my experience the best way to have a sexual tantric session is to always keep myself below a 4/10 (with 10 being a traditional ejaculatory orgasm). Sounds easy enough. But believe me, when you have gone weeks without ejaculating, this task requires you to pay an enormous amount of attention to the sexual energies rising within you.
As my practice developed, I saw great value in attempting to circulate the sexual energy rising during a session, very similar to how we do during spinal breathing pranayama. This process also requires you to pay close attention to the energy in your body.
When you watch porn, it takes your attention away from the energy in your body and places your attention on an external, overstimulating object. This makes the process of being attentive to, managing, and circulating the rising energies in your body substantially more difficult.
Quitting porn will likely be one of the most difficult things you ever do as a young man. It was for me, at least. However I strongly believe the reward is well worth it. |
Edited by - elderberry on Jun 11 2024 6:13:53 PM |
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interpaul
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2024 : 8:45:39 PM
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quote:
When you watch porn, it takes your attention away from the energy in your body and places your attention on an external, overstimulating object. This makes the process of being attentive to, managing, and circulating the rising energies in your body substantially more difficult.
Elderberry nailed it with the above quote. There are several other issues at play here. Shame is a big one. How you feel about what you are viewing can cause a huge energy drain and be a huge barrier to achieving your goals. The other big issue is how to deal with your strong dependence on this super stimulus. It's one thing to understand the drawbacks of pornography, and there are many, the challenge is how to deal with your visual cravings. Can you just let go of the "need" for the paring of visual stimulus with sexual arousal and solo practices. For me, this is the area that requires the most thoughtful attention. Just like food, sexual expression is a physical need of the body creating a challenge for those individuals navigating redirecting these powerful energies. |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2024 : 03:16:33 AM
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| It is always about setting an intention, and then giving it attention. Keep meditating; this invites inner silence over time, your attention gains influence over the intention, because you can be quiet enough, and open enough, to find the knowing. |
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Reno2233
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2024 : 9:51:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by elderberry
Hey Reno,
In many ways, I feel like I'm in the same boat as you. I'm a late 20s male on the AYP spiritual path. To say I have a strong sex drive would be the understatement of a lifetime.
For me, there is an extremely obvious push/pull relationship between my sexuality and my spiritual development. Nothing seems to enhance my spiritual development like a good integration of tantric principles. Similarly, nothing seems to distract from my spiritual practices more than following my sex drive to it's "natural" inclinations (pornography, chasing meaningless relationships for the sake of sex, etc).
I've come to view tantra as bit of a unique spiritual practice in that both its effects and difficulty of implementation are going to vary wildly from person to person. In other words, I would argue the average 20 year old male would have a substantially harder time implementing tantra over the long term than say, a 60 year old male. The same can be said for two 20 year old males with radically different sex drives. However the degree of difficulty to implement seems to scale with the degree of reward you get from it. A 20 year old male with a high sex drive who is able to successfully implement a practice of tantra is going to be pouring jet fuel on his spiritual development in a way that someone with a tantric practice + a lower sex drive might not.
This is all to say, my aim is to reframe your point of view a little bit. The greater your desire to watch porn (or any other similar sexual act), the greater your reward will be if you're able to overcome that desire and integrate your sexuality in a more fruitful manner. In that sense, tantra is a practice which is very "pay to play".
Now, to answer your question directly.
Often times in the AYP forums, we tend to give somewhat "on the fence" answers. We seem to shy away from giving hardcore yes or no answers to questions like this because, well, the guru is in you as yogani might say. Ultimately, its up for you to decide what feels right in your own body. This is one thing I love most about the AYP forums. We are so open minded to so many different ways of doing this. However, this will not be one of those answers.
Don't watch porn.
My reasoning for this is both spiritual and non-spiritual. For context, I completely cut out porn about 6 years ago. Which was 4 years prior to really starting my spiritual journey.
1. Leaving spirituality aside for a moment, porn really does screw with the male brain in my opinion. As a young man, every single cell in your body is screaming for sexual satisfaction. Pornography hijacks these impulses in a manner which is deeply addictive and overstimulating. Scientists can demonstrate observable difference in the brains men who watch porn vs. those who don't under MRI scans, similar to differences observed in drug addicts. If you'd like to look at the science behind this, I would recommend googling "yourbrainonporn" and looking through a few of the studies.
Allow me to be clear, I have zero ethical hangups around porn. This is purely from the perspective of the mental health of the individual consuming it.
Onto the spiritual side of things:
2. Porn is counterproductive to the macro goal of tantra. Continued use of porn reduces the overall amount of sexual energy in the body. I can prove this with the following experiment:
- Watch porn every day for a week. Or if you're already watching porn, than you're good to go.
- Masturbate (without porn) or have sex with a partner and take note of the amount of sexual energy in your body.
- Take a 30 day break from watching porn. Do not change anything else in your sexual lifestyle. Keep ejaculating as normal. Otherwise we are mixing too many variables.
- Masturbate without porn or have sex with a partner. Take note of the amount of sexual energy in your body.
I would bet the farm that the second time around you will feel a massive increase in sexual energy in your body. Exact same stimulus, significantly more flows of sexual energy.
This sexual energy is the fuel of tantra. We want to preserve and cultivate it as much as possible. In my experience, porn tends to overstimulate and addict the mind, thereby suppressing this energy.
3. On the micro level of tantra. As you get more developed in your tantra practice, you will start playing with your sexual energy more. As a small example, in my experience the best way to have a sexual tantric session is to always keep myself below a 4/10 (with 10 being a traditional ejaculatory orgasm). Sounds easy enough. But believe me, when you have gone weeks without ejaculating, this task requires you to pay an enormous amount of attention to the sexual energies rising within you.
As my practice developed, I saw great value in attempting to circulate the sexual energy rising during a session, very similar to how we do during spinal breathing pranayama. This process also requires you to pay close attention to the energy in your body.
When you watch porn, it takes your attention away from the energy in your body and places your attention on an external, overstimulating object. This makes the process of being attentive to, managing, and circulating the rising energies in your body substantially more difficult.
Quitting porn will likely be one of the most difficult things you ever do as a young man. It was for me, at least. However I strongly believe the reward is well worth it.
Hi Elderberry,
I truly appreciate the time and effort put into your response! It is extremely well written and was a joy to read. I also agree you and I are in similar places. The effects of porn on the tantra practice and sexual energy you mentioned are true. At the time I was just beginning to experiment with using porn along with my solo tantra practice. I ended up watching porn daily for the entire week (as you mentioned in the experiment). I just so happen to already be doing so beforehand. A few things happened:
1. While using porn I had full intention of practicing the holdback method w/o blocking. Sessions went a bit longer than intended (no ejaculation) but afterwards I?d see semen in my next urination. I thought blocking only caused this but it was happening with holdback only.
2. I had trouble staying low in my arousal level. Instead of the 4 you stated, I was roughly at a 7-9 which couldve been overstimulated and aroused by the porn use.
3. Around day 3, so mid week I noticed a huge distinct drop in my sexual energy and ecstatic conductivity inside and out of tantric practice. Sitting practices ceased to be as pleasurable as it was earlier in the week. Additionally, the tantric stimulation with porn led to a lack of sexual energy/pleasure higher in my body. All the energy was lower and I no longer felt the boost to my essences. Instead, it felt like regular plain masturbation like the pre AYP days.
All this to say, I now see the shortcomings of porn use in general and also hope to eradicate it. I find your leaving of the porn habit behind 6 years ago nothing short of AMAZING! I too hope to be the same way in time. Personally, I?ve only masturbated without porn once in my life and that was back in childhood.
It seems porn can?t be carried further in the journey.
So ultimately, do you recommend tantric solo practice by itself no porn just stimulation? If so, do I only focus on the internal sexual energy? |
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Reno2233
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2024 : 9:58:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
quote:
When you watch porn, it takes your attention away from the energy in your body and places your attention on an external, overstimulating object. This makes the process of being attentive to, managing, and circulating the rising energies in your body substantially more difficult.
Elderberry nailed it with the above quote. There are several other issues at play here. Shame is a big one. How you feel about what you are viewing can cause a huge energy drain and be a huge barrier to achieving your goals. The other big issue is how to deal with your strong dependence on this super stimulus. It's one thing to understand the drawbacks of pornography, and there are many, the challenge is how to deal with your visual cravings. Can you just let go of the "need" for the paring of visual stimulus with sexual arousal and solo practices. For me, this is the area that requires the most thoughtful attention. Just like food, sexual expression is a physical need of the body creating a challenge for those individuals navigating redirecting these powerful energies.
Hi Interpaul,
Thank you for your response and insight! I too agree heavily with the quote by elderberry. The strong pull of the external visual stimulus, began to stifle my inner energies. It was no longer boosting but felt counterproductive.
The shame is a valid point to call out. I?m sure there is a relation or remnants of shame within tied to my porn use. However, I do feel like my consistency in deep meditation and SPB has truly helped in this area. And no doubt ceasing the porn usage would expel it further.
Regarding letting visual stimulus go. Is this the best/most ideal way to practice solo tantra? Without external stimulus and only feeling the energies inside?
I feel I can let go of the visual stimulus but I have to admit the thought is indeed foreign. |
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Reno2233
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2024 : 10:02:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy
It is always about setting an intention, and then giving it attention. Keep meditating; this invites inner silence over time, your attention gains influence over the intention, because you can be quiet enough, and open enough, to find the knowing.
Hi Dogboy,
Thank you again for your reply and expertise. I hope you?re well today!
Yes, this makes total sense. Except, I feel the intention needs to be set without the use of pornography and external stimulus. I will continue to meditate and progress in my sitting practices.
Do you think/feel overuse of porn would set back any progress made on the AYP journey? As mentioned, I feel like my sitting practices have been dampened a bit over the last week due to overindulgence. |
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elderberry
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2024 : 2:00:48 PM
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First, just to respond to your experience wherein your sexual energy decreased after some time spent not ejaculating.
As surprising as this may be, this is fairly par for the course. In my own body at least, when I break the habit of ejaculation, I will experience an unbelievable increase in sex drive for 2-6 weeks. Intense to the point where it can feel quite counterproductive in some ways. How the heck am I supposed to be present to the moment when I am cultivating a state in my body where I think about sex most of the day?
After around 4-6 weeks give or take, my sex drive takes a substantial dip. In some ways it resumes normal levels, and in some ways it actually feels like my sex drive goes "below" my previous baseline I experienced back when I was ejaculating. Around this stage, my physical cravings for sex tend to seriously diminish. However, my emotional cravings for sex, intimacy and partnership tend to increase. Don't get me wrong, During this period I still have days of unbelievably high physical sex drive here and there, but overall it tends to settle into a much lower baseline. I've read of many other men in online forums experiencing similar things when they choose to retain.
This type of experience can be strange, or even scary for some men. Many young men feel like they've lost their mojo or sex drive entirely, and it can be easy to convince yourself its gone forever. Don't worry, I can assure you it isn't. Anytime I am in this state and I eventually return to my old patterns of sexual relationships and ejaculation, my "old" sexual tendencies will return in full force.
The metaphor I like to give for sexual energy is a bit like a fire. Prior to tantric practices, you have a bit of a forest fire inside of you. Burning down everything in its path, causing a bit of a ruckus. Very difficult to control.
If you abstain from sexual interaction completely for a very long time, its possible for it to feel like the fire has "gone out" to some degree. This has the benefit of not needing to combat sexual thoughts 24/7, however in my experience it isn't quite the ideal.
My goal is to keep my fire in a stage akin to a burning hot coal. A controlled burn that I can control and use to my own benefit. In order to achieve this, I must walk a bit of tightrope of sexual activity, without letting the fire burn out of control. This can be something as simple as flirting or cuddling with the opposite sex, pre-orgasmic sex with someone you love, tantric masturbation practices. Integrating siddhasana into one's practice can be a huge help. I found more than anything this tends to cultivate sexual energy in a fairly controlled manner.
Yes, I would certainly recommend including tantric masturbation (or sex) in your practice, without the use of porn.
When you give up porn, its going to feel extremely difficult to masturbate at first. Your brain will go through withdrawal for a few weeks, at least. This is normal. Trust me, if you just give it a few weeks or months, masturbation without the use of porn will feel easy and natural. |
Edited by - elderberry on Jun 15 2024 2:46:09 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2024 : 03:41:02 AM
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Good advice  |
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Reno2233
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2024 : 9:35:11 PM
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Hi Elderberry,
This is good insight. I like the analogy of keeping the ?fire? burning and controlled within. As of the last week, I?ve managed to step away from porn. I started my initial journey with learning and trying to practice semen retention. So the reckless forest fire view is very accurate if untamed.
In this last week I?ve struggled a bit. Without the use of porn there is no desire to masturbate or even practice tantric solo. You mentioned this would be the case for a while but for the time being it feels like a setback.
I noticed my solo tantric practice even using porn in the past improved my sitting practices and made them much more effective.
Do you have any advice on going about this, should I just wait until the desire to practice solo tantra arises without porn and keep meditating? |
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elderberry
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2024 : 5:31:25 PM
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Hey Reno,
A few things.
1. I recently realized Yogani actually has a post about porn in his tantra lessons. Lesson T38. Feel free to give it a read.
To quote yogani, with all things he doesn't give stark advice on weather something should be forcibly removed or not. However with regards to porn, he does write in the lesson "Yes, it [porn] is destructive.". So, just wanted to throw that in there.
2. Stepping back from the spirituality for a second, I highly recommend you google "yourbrainonporn" and ready some of the scientific studies. Long story short, under MRI scans the reward centers in the brains of porn addicts are virtually identical to that of drug addicts. I don't mean to sound harsh with the word "porn addict", but that is really the only suitable term. I would argue that the vast majority of men living in the west could be categorized as porn addicts. This isn't to degrade anyone, but just to call it what it is.
I bring all this up to say, cut yourself some slack during this period of time.
An alcoholic who gives up alcohol will go through hell for a while.
A drug addict that gives up drugs will experience the same.
An overweight person who is addicted to food is going to nearly lose their mind the first time they go on a diet.
This is no different. You are overcoming an addiction like any I listed above. In some ways, giving up pornography is actually more difficult than giving up drugs or alcohol. This is because, at the very least, when you give up drugs or alcohol you have all of society cheering you on. You know in your heart you are doing the right thing. Porn is a bit trickier in that, you are actually being a bit of a contrarian to western society by not watching porn. It is all quite taboo to discuss. Everyone loves to cheer on the person who is attempting to overcome their addiction to drugs, alcohol or food. Porn on the other hand? Not the type of thing which is commonly discussed at the dinner table. You tend not to receive support from those around you the same way one does when attempting to overcome other types of addictions.
For what its worth, you have my support. You are doing the right thing. Trust in that.
This is all to say, really, cut yourself some slack during these next few weeks. If you're able to, spend a little less time working. Spend a little less time studying. Spend a little more time doing the things that bring you joy. Go hang out with some friends, go to the spa, go kill a pint of ben and jerrys ice cream if you feel like it. In my opinion the first step to overcoming something like this is just giving yourself credit where credit is due. You are attempting to do something hard. Really hard. During these next few weeks and months, really make sure to show yourself some love. You deserve it.
3. Believe me, your sex drive will return.
When someone with a poor diet gives up processed food, a salad will initially taste terrible. With time, one will realize that same salad tastes amazing.
When an alcoholic gives up alcohol, socializing will feel impossible. With time, they will feel they are socializing in healthier and more incredible ways than ever.
When a coffee addict gives up coffee, they are going to be on the brink of exhaustion for days, weeks, or even months. Eventually they regain their equilibrium.
Same thing here. When someone with a porn addiction gives it up, their sex drive and sexual energy will be all out of whack for a while. And that's okay. It's all part of the process.
As crazy as it sounds, not only will your sex drive return, it will return even stronger than it was when you were watching porn.
4. On the AYP side of things, you know the drill. Keep meditating, and self pace as needed. Everything will even out with time  |
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ant
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2024 : 4:35:02 PM
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| I very strongly suggest not using porn for yogic purposes. Others have gone into helpful detail, so I'm just hoping to be another voice in the chorus here. I speak from many years of experience. Porn is similar to taking drugs as far as your brain and spirit are concerned. It is best to shy away from artificial sources of stimulation. Our modern lives are filled with artificial stimulation, but if any is good to avoid in your life, porn is high on the list in my opinion. It is not about the moral implications in this case. It is about the effects on the brain. There is a lot of research out there demonstrating the negative impacts of porn on the neurobiology (see "Your Brain on Porn"). I think it is safe to say that the brain is not built to see such fundamental and strong stimuli on-demand and in quantity and specificity that even the most dominant predator in the wild could only dream of. This is extremely stimulating, which is why you say that you have issues remaining in the plateau of arousal, which has always been my experience as well. It is best to rely on more natural sources of arousal. In this case, your imagination (which may have become a bit dull after years of porn use, which is typical) is a safer source of arousal, and will become much more vivid and strong if you avoid using porn. |
Edited by - ant on Sep 20 2024 4:44:56 PM |
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Use of Porn with Solo Tantric Practice
