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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 24 2024 : 5:53:09 PM
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I recently read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras (or rather the commentary by Taimni). And it was interesting to see how everything said (by Patanjali and Taimni) relates to AYP and my subjective experience of my practice. While I can understand why everyone is praising the Yoga Sutras for their scope and conciseness, I found it quite underwhelming how little is said about the actual practices (practice in the sense of training) of meditation and Samyama, given that large portions of the book deal with them.
These portions seem to be mostly about classifying types of Samadhi one might achieve as a very advanced Yogi, rather than giving instructions on how to become advanced. So I guess this book is of practical relevance only to those Yogis that are already sufficiently advanced to reliably enter Samadhi.
However, four Sutras deal with practices leading up to such more advanced stages. At least I recognised them to be aspects of DM and AYP-Samyama.
The Sutras (taken from Taimni's book) are 3-9(and 10), 3-11 and 3-12.
3-9 (and 10)
Nirodha Parinama is that transformation of the mind in which it becomes progressively permeated by that condition of Nirodha which intervenes momentarily between an impression which is disappearing and the impression which is taking its place. Its flow becomes tranquil by repeated impression.
3-11
Samadhi transformation is the (gradual) setting of the distractions and simultaneous rising of one-pointedness.
3-12
Then, again, the condition of the mind in which the "object" (in the mind) which subsides is always exactly similar to the "object" which rises (in the next moment) is called Ekagrata Parinama.
From the vantage point of my current stage of practices and from what I read in the AYP lessons, it seems that DM and AYP-Samyama involve and train all three of these transformations ("Parinamas"). However, DM and AYP-Samyama train them in different ways and degrees. Here are my thoughts:
DM clearly trains the Samadhi transformation because our main task in DM (which is to favor the mantra and to return to it when we notice we are off) gradually makes us more sensitive to being distracted, so that over the months and years of DM practice distractions happen less frequently in DM. Furthermore, in DM losing the mantra is not only acceptable (and facilitated by merely favoring the mantra instead of attempting to "stay on it"), but every time it happens we encounter a mini Nirodha state (returning to mantra from another thought), or a larger yet unintentional Nirodha state after transcending (before returning to mantra from stillness). So DM trains the Nirodha transition through passing many times through these unintentional Nirodha states. And for more advanced DM practitioners (more advanced than I currently am) Yogani pointed out that the mantra can just be a faint feeling with no pattern of repetition, which then seems to train the Ekagrata transformation in which the one-pointedness is robust. Yogani also mentioned that in a more advanced stage we can even favor the mantra as stillness itself which seems to combine the Ekagrata and Nirodha transformation.
AYP-Samyama directly trains the Nirodha transformation with its intentional 15 second intervals of easy silence (compared to the unintentional and rather unpredictable intervals in DM). Also the "tranquil flow" aspect in 3-10 appears in AYP-Samyama practice through the instruction of "easy silence". Ekagrata Parinama might be trained through the repetition of each AYP-Sutra (twice or more often) in the fuzziest way, and Samadhi Parinama by favoring the AYP-Samyama practice over other thoughts.
There is a good chance that what I wrote is not fully correct. So any thoughts welcome! It was fun to view my AYP experience through the lens of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. The above four sutras I found particularly interesting because they shed light on DM and AYP-Samyama from a different perspective than the "usual" Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi limbs (https://www.aypsite.org/176.html ).
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Edited by - TensorTympani on Apr 24 2024 10:59:14 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2024 : 11:21:41 PM
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Hi Tensor,
Yes, a lot of nirodha (stilling) processes going on in different ways! Not only with Deep Meditation and Samyama but also in asana practice and pranayama and especially with self-inquiry when the time is right.
You may find this quote from Yogani useful when it comes to Deep Meditation technique:
"All we do is favor easily the mantra whenever we realize we are off it, whatever it is in the mind. We don't try to make the mantra clear or fuzzy. Just the intention to favor the mantra is the mantra. That's all. Nothing more to do." [Yogani]
That is from here
The intention is the important part. |
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Dogboy
USA
2202 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2024 : 12:31:27 AM
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quote:
The intention is the important part.
Amen |
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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2024 : 11:34:25 AM
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Just having some more fun:
The sentence "Just the intention to favor the mantra is the mantra." is a recursive definition of what mantra means, namely
Mantra = Intention to favor Mantra
which implies
Mantra = Intention to favor ( Intention to favor ( Intention to favor ( Intention to favor ( (...) ) ) ) )
Easily favoring the mantra as a faint feeling with no pattern, or as stillness itself, (both also Yogani's instructions) I can at least imagine ending up with starting from a I AM. But the above recursive meaning seems quite difficult to favor easily.
It seems that both Patanjali and Yogani like brain twisting instructions :-P
Check this out:
Patanjali's first Samyama Sutra (3-16) is:
"By performing Samyama on the three kinds of transformations (Nirodha, Samadhi and Ekagrata) knowledge of the past and future."
But by doing Samyama on these three transformation (exactly those three I wrote down in my post above 3-9:12), one basically performs Samyama on the method of Samyama. Samyama on Samyama has the same flavor of recursive brain-twistiness. |
Edited by - TensorTympani on Apr 25 2024 12:13:07 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2024 : 2:28:00 PM
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Hi Tensor,
I realise you are just having some fun with words, but to clarify for anyone who is in this situation:
As the mind and the mantra refine to stillness and silence, a situation can occur where someone realises that they are off the mantra, but it is not possible to think the mantra, as the silence is simply too deep. In this situation, there can still be a mere "impulse" of the mantra as a subtle energetic vibration, or the "mere intention" to pick up the mantra. So, the mantra has become a subtle impulse, or subtle intention within the mind, happening within stillness and silence. So, the practitioner would then be favouring an intention within silence, with their attention, over anything else that is going on in the mind. This could continue for the remainder of the meditation session, or they could find that they go deeper into samadhi and are not even aware that they are off the mantra, or they may find they come to a more surface level and are able to pick up the mantra as an actual internalised sound vibration, or thought. So, there isn't actually any recursive aspect to it. The "mere intention", or "mere impulse" become the mantra (object that is favoured with the attention) in that situation.
As for sutra 3.16 of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, Patanjali is referring to practising Samyama on three kinds of transformation (parinamas) that are described in sutra 3.13. These are the transformations of the characteristics, the behaviour and the conditions occurring at the level of the senses and elements. In sutras 3.14 and 3.15 he goes on to say that the substratum (prakriti) goes through latent, uprisen and unmanifest stages and that the succession of these different stages is the cause of the differences in the development of things over time. This is why practising Samyama on the transformations of the characteristics, the behaviour and the conditions occurring at the level of the senses and elements, gives rise to knowledge of the past and future. This in turn is only possible following development in one-pointedness of mind (sutra 3.12) and development in samadhi (3.11). So, again, nothing recursive going on! 
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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2024 : 3:52:36 PM
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Hi Christi,
Thanks a lot for clarifying. What you are describing then seems to be somewhat in between the two other instructions by Yogani I mentioned, namely to favor the mantra as faint feeling with no pattern and to favor the mantra as silence.
In any case this clarification helps a lot. In fact, sometimes, when I introduce the mantra after SBP (after a little while of silence) I introduce the mantra very carefully. And I noticed that the build-up of the intention to think the mantra can catapult me sometimes into a very deep state before even thinking the mantra once.
For some reason it didn't occur to me that holding on to that intention without actually thinking the mantra could be a valid form of DM. Very interesting!
Regarding the Sutra 3-16, you are right that these three transformations refer those of sense-organs and elements in Sutra 3-13. But at least in my commentary of 3-13 it says that these three transformations are of the same nature as the ones described in 3-9:12 in relation to Citta, and also in 3-16 Taimni chose to explicitly mention Nirodha, Samadhi and Ekagrata, see page 272:
https://yogastudies.org/wp-content/...a-Taimni.pdf
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Edited by - TensorTympani on Apr 25 2024 5:03:10 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2024 : 6:09:13 PM
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Hi Tensor,
The Deep Meditation instruction I am giving here is not different than Yogani gives. And yes, even the faint intention to pick up the mantra, occurring within stillness, can lead directly to nirvikalpa samadhi with no thoughts in the mind, or even any awareness of separation.
With sutra 3.16 from YSP it is better to translate it without the words "nirodha", "samadhi" and "ekagrata" as those words are not mentioned by Patanjali in that sutra and he is not referring to them. I think Taimni could be confusing people there. |
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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2024 : 11:17:52 PM
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Hi Christi,
I just did my usual practice while allowing (and of course not forcing) the level of fuzziness to be as little as just the mere intention of pickung up the thought of the mantra in DM (and also the sutras in Samyama). This is really wild! I have to try this a few more times before being certain about this, but just now the refinement of the mantra was quite immediate, and I don't recall being in such a deep state for the whole allotted time. And also for Samyama this technique made a huge difference: having the intention to think the sutra but then dropping that effort the last moment before "actually" thinking it. With each sutra dropped that way the spaciousness of my awareness increased in some way I have never experienced before.
And in not even two weeks I join your AYP retreat on DM and Samyama.
I'm very much looking forward meeting you there and learning more 
Thank you for pointing out that Yogani quote and explaining it. It's a revelation 
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2024 : 09:51:37 AM
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Hi Tensor,
That's great.
That is actually the correct method of practice for Samyama. It is written here in lesson 150:
"In your easy silence, pick up, just once, the fuzziest feeling of the word "Love" in your own language. Don't deliberately make a clear pronunciation, or mental images of this or that scene or situation that represent Love to you. Just have a faint remembrance of Love, and then let go into your silence, the easy silence you are in as you pick up the faint meaning of Love." [Yogani]
On Deep Meditation and Samyama technique you may find this forum post by Yogani helpful in clarifying some of the things we have been discussing:
https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...=13671#13671
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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2024 : 5:46:51 PM
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Hi Christi,
The tricky bit is interpreting what is meant by "the fuzziest feeling of the word 'Love'". And it's good to have a range of different wordings for what this fuzziest feeling is and is not. I guess I tried to play it safe by staying too close to a preconceived lower limit of fuzziness which restricted me to go deeper. I still had very good results (as measured in daily life) with this type of self-inflicted fuzziness-restriction. And it never occurred to me that I was limiting myself because I felt that both mantra and sutras had continuously evolved to become more subtle over the last year.
Sometimes I get these "aha"-moments where suddenly some form of clunkiness becomes apparent and can be shed. So this was one of these moments :)
This also what Yogani talks about in the post you linked:
quote:
So we just say, "Easily favor the mantra," which covers all possibilities. It is whatever it is for the practitioner at a point in time. It will be something else later -- even less defined as we gradually find ourselves becoming the singularity of abiding inner silence, both inside and outside of deep meditation.
In time we each find the refinement in our own way.
On the topic of using the mere intention of picking up a sutra in Samyama I also found this interesting post by Yogani in the forums: https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...D=3489#30424 |
Edited by - TensorTympani on Apr 26 2024 6:51:23 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2024 : 6:54:29 PM
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DM, Samyama, and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras 3-9:12
