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Mats
Germany
51 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 16 2023 : 10:21:50 PM
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Hi,
in my oberservation, attention can be sharp and precise or it can be fuzzy and muddy. Moreover, the mantra also can be clear or it can be fuzzy.
The state of the mantra (clear or fuzzy) should be oberserved without prefering one over the other. However, the attention should be clear and precise. Right?
How do I distinguish between a fuzzy mantra and fuzzy attention?
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2023 : 07:10:42 AM
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Don?t. There is no need to. As soon as you find you are off in such thoughts - go back to the mantra. 
Sey  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4512 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2023 : 08:17:27 AM
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Mats
Germany
51 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2023 : 5:48:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Don?t. There is no need to. As soon as you find you are off in such thoughts - go back to the mantra.
So there is no need to go back to a clear attention when it gets muddy, unfocused? |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2023 : 8:58:15 PM
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quote:
So there is no need to go back to a clear attention when it gets muddy, unfocused?
Like Sey says, simply return to the mantra. "Muddy attention vs clear attention" is but a range of how you present that day; whatever the quality of attention, the directive is the same when you are off the mantra. We bring ourselves to our seat as we are, maybe make a note of how we feel during SBP, and accept/forgive/surrender any shortcomings we discover in our preparation for DM. |
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Mats
Germany
51 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2023 : 6:33:52 PM
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Mats
Germany
51 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2024 : 9:59:35 PM
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| There is one additional question: It is said, that the goal is not to stay on the mantra, but to come back to it again and again when you are off. How much effort to you put in staying with the mantra? Be with it just loosely so you lose it easily? Or be with it with some effort as long as you can and when you lose it, you lose it? |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2024 : 03:17:47 AM
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"It is said, that the goal is not to stay on the mantra, but to come back to it again and again when you are off"
The process is to stay on the mantra, and return when notice you are off somewhere else. So simple, really Mats, you are overthinking. The mantra is ongoing in the silence, simply, gently, confidently follow it. Surrender all effort that interferes favoring the mantra. It is hard to screw it up; if the mind is thinking about effort, you are not gently favoring the mantra. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4512 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2024 : 03:46:03 AM
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Hi Mats,
If in doubt, always go back to the meditation instructions. Deep Meditation is an effortless practice. This is in lesson 13:
"After about a minute, gently introduce the thought ... I AM ... and begin to repeat it easily and effortlessly in your mind. If your mind wanders off into other thoughts, you will eventually realize this has happened. Don't be concerned about it. It is natural. When you realize you are not repeating the mantra, gently go back to it." [Yogani] (Bold added)
As Dogboy says, don't over-think it. Just gently pick up the mantra and repeat it silently in your mind, coming back to it easily, whenever you realise you are off it.
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2024 : 1:59:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mats
There is one additional question: It is said, that the goal is not to stay on the mantra, but to come back to it again and again when you are off. How much effort to you put in staying with the mantra? Be with it just loosely so you lose it easily? Or be with it with some effort as long as you can and when you lose it, you lose it?
Hi Mats,
Good questions. We do want to stay with the mantra as much as we can. Focusing the mind makes attention flow into a single stream to the object of our attention. The quality of our attention, the clarity of attention stream conditions the clarity of our samadhi experience.
However, if we keep turning the attention to the effort, if keep wondering how focus we are, in that very moment we split our attention away from the object of focus.
To make an analogy, when we watch a movie and we get caught into it, we lose track of ourselves, of time, of place. Our attention flows continuously to the object - the movie. We do not wonder "Are we paying attention?" "Is this a great movie?" "Am I having a good time?" The moment anything else but the movie comes into the mind, we lose focus, and our movie experience diminishes.
The movie experience anchors our attention externally with a continuous shift of stimuli. Compared with this, meditation keeps the attention on one simple thing: the mantra. When the attention flows smoothly to the mantra, first we lose track of ourselves, then we lose track of the mantra, and only the clear flow of attention remains - samadhi.
Interestingly, if we are able to keep our attention of an external object continuously for a period of time, the object of perception disappears and samadhi occurs. Stable attention stops the fluctuations of the mind and our natural state of samadhi comes forward.
This stable attention is like a muscle that gets stronger with training. So every time we meditate, we cultivate this stable attention which allows samadhi and opens the gates to deeper insights.
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mrjones
Australia
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2024 : 10:55:33 PM
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Hi Blanche,
I suppose the movie analogy could be interpreted as having to 'effort' to really intently stay focussed on the mantra. We do tha with a movie because it's interesting, but a mantra isn't particularly interesting so effort would be required. But from what I read that'd be wrong. Instead, the aim is to effortlessly repeat the mantra while staying it, which calms the mind and brings about that level of focus on its own. Is that correct?
Actually, thinking about it, last week I decided to really just trust the mantra and as I recall some good feelings started to arise, so I guess that's all I need to do, just trust it and follow it wherever and however it goes?
Thanks |
Edited by - mrjones on Feb 04 2024 07:51:48 AM |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2024 : 9:33:35 PM
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quote:
Actually, thinking about it, last week I decided to really just trust the mantra and as I recall some good feelings started to arise, so I guess that's all I need to do, just trust it and follow it wherever and however it goes?
That is correct, sir  |
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mrjones
Australia
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2024 : 11:27:05 AM
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Thanks. I think the thing that's confused me is that it seems I can have more than one thought at once (or they're changing so quickly as to seem to appear simultaneously). For example, while I may be aware of the mantra, some hypnogogic style imagery might arise, or some other thought arises on the periphery, but part of my awareness is still on the mantra.
I assume that still counts as being aware of being off the mantra so I should bring that part of my mind onto it too, instead of just maintaining my 'primary' awareness on the mantra and letting that other chatter carry on? I hope that makes sense. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4512 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2024 : 2:22:35 PM
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Hi Mrjones,
There is no need to stop thoughts from happening, or to stop any visions, or sensations, or experiences from arising during your meditation. All you need to do is to favour the mantra with your attention, every time you realise you are not doing that. "To favour and object" means to give most of your attention to that object.
If you imagine that you are in a room, and there is a piano in the room; you could favour the piano with your attention. There could also be other things in the room, and you would be aware of those things, but at the same time, most of your attention would be on the piano. So, the practice of Deep Meditation is not about shutting things off, or stopping things, or pushing things away. It is simply about favouring one thing, over anything else, in an easy and effortless way.
See here from lesson addition 13.3:
"Thoughts are a normal part of meditation and we don't try to do anything with them, block them out, etc. When we notice our attention has gone off the mantra, we just easily come back to it. It is a favoring of the mantra, not a pushing away of other thoughts, or big effort to concentrate on the mantra. There can be other thoughts present, or not, while we are favoring the mantra. If the mantra is rolling in the background when we find ourselves with attention on other thoughts, that is okay. We just let our attention easily come back to favoring the mantra." [Yogani]
And here from Lesson addition 13.4:
"Regarding the use of I AM, this is a mantra. Using mantra in deep meditation is a more pro-active way of cultivating "abiding inner silence," a specific procedure and much more effective than attempting to "empty the mind" by intention. Intention requires effort and has meaning, and as long as we are in effort and meaning, we are in mind. The mantra is not about effort or meaning (an effortless mental sound), and by using the correct procedure, we can go much deeper, completely beyond the mind to pure bliss consciousness." [Yogani]
I talk about this a bit in the video I recorded on Entering Samadhi, where I mention that samadhi is a "Balanced state where we begin to settle into the peaceful nature of our own being." If we are using effort to push things away in the mind, or to stop things from happening, we are less likely to enter a peaceful state. That is not to say it is impossible, just that it is much less likely.
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2024 : 1:01:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mrjones
Hi Blanche,
I suppose the movie analogy could be interpreted as having to 'effort' to really intently stay focussed on the mantra. We do tha with a movie because it's interesting, but a mantra isn't particularly interesting so effort would be required. But from what I read that'd be wrong. Instead, the aim is to effortlessly repeat the mantra while staying it, which calms the mind and brings about that level of focus on its own. Is that correct?
Actually, thinking about it, last week I decided to really just trust the mantra and as I recall some good feelings started to arise, so I guess that's all I need to do, just trust it and follow it wherever and however it goes?
Thanks
Exactly, follow the mantra wherever it takes you. Isn't that super-interesting? How interesting is that our mind works this way, waving, webbing, and settling to stillness? How interesting that a good feeling rises as the mind quiets down? And then joy, and happiness, and then complete contentment where one cannot wish for one thing to be different and a feeling that nothing else is needed, that all is well. And then much more opens up. It is so interesting that what seems like the inner world is as vast and nuanced as the outer world - and there is so much to explore. And there is more. Meditation is interesting, and it can be restful and healing and peaceful. And it is ok when it is somewhat boring at times. Just allow it all to unfold.
So just sitting with the mantra and allowing it to go where it may is effortless. What could be more interesting that finding out what we are? And allowing and trusting our meditation is the way to go - effortlessly. |
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mrjones
Australia
8 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2024 : 8:22:40 PM
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| Apologies for the delay. Thank you both for your replies, they make sense. |
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Fuzzy mantra or fuzzy attention?
