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Cato
Germany
225 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 15 2022 : 2:03:33 PM
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My dear friends,
I would like to give an update on my status and ask for your thougths. As some of you might remember, I tended to struggle with overload issues. Based on good advice from the forum, I cut down practices completely for months and restarted when I felt it right. Right now I am doing 5 minutes of SBP and 10 minutes of DM, then 5 minutes rest. No bandhas, mudras or other practices at all. I feel this amount of practice is allright at the moment.
However, since starting AYP (some years now), I am missing those subtle changes in daily living that are regarded as a successful practice or progress on the path. There is nothing I can think of, no increase of calmness or peace whatsoever. No other (perhaps less typical) changes or aspects I could think of either. There are those peaceful meditation sessions now and then but no changes in daily living. In other threads some were talking about AYP not beinig the right approach for everyone and I am thinking about that. I am a friend of consistency and not digging a hole here, a hole there and a another one there. I love the community, the forum and the support everyone is giving. I still feel kind of home with AYP and would be joyfully on the way if I had the slightest hint of progress or assurance of doing the right thing.
Having said that and for further information, I am having a hard time right now. Without any apparent source, I have feelings of sadness and being overwhelmed with life. I don't think it practice related and associate it amongst others with the ongoing pandemic situation (stress, homeoffice,family life, skinny social life, a bunch of health issues etc.). I'm planning to start talking to a therapist.
I would like to think of my meditation practice to be a source of calmness and energy for the day. Taking time for myself, recharging batteries, making tiny steps on the spiritual path. This one is missing and I am not sure if it might due to the fact that I might be better off with another approach. My impression from what I read in the forum is that at least some changes should be noticeable. What do you think?
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2022 : 8:25:02 PM
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Hi Cato,
every journey is different. So there is no need to obey anything. The guru is in you and you can listen to him. So feel free to do your practice according to your inner voice. AYP is an open embracing approach that is not meant to be dogmatic in its practices, but one source that can be used for seekers on any path.
Spiritual practice will not directly solve any life issues. So if you're having a hard time at the moment it may be good to work on all these issues now. Meditation will not make them vanish but can help you find a perspective or suffer less. If you are considering to take help by a therapist, go for it. It is important to seek (professional) help and speak openly about such issues.
Being in such a situation does agitate your inner being and may make it difficult to have actual room for what you are seeking in your practice. If now the energy is coming, can you embrace it?
If this is difficult, it may be helpful to take a retreat.
We tend to think in a sensation seeking and progressive way. It will never be fully satisfied. What do you expect? You have no control of what happens next. Tomorrow everything may be different.
Not desiring the fruits of your action and surrender is a noble attitude. It seems demanding, but permanent suffering is much more demanding.
Practice as it feels good for you. There are ups and downs. Devotion and Patience in your way is key. |
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Dogboy
USA
2198 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2022 : 02:51:00 AM
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Lightandlove has given solid advice.
quote:
Having said that and for further information, I am having a hard time right now. Without any apparent source, I have feelings of sadness and being overwhelmed with life. I don't think it practice related and associate it amongst others with the ongoing pandemic situation (stress, homeoffice,family life, skinny social life, a bunch of health issues etc.). I'm planning to start talking to a therapist.
I would like to think of my meditation practice to be a source of calmness and energy for the day. Taking time for myself, recharging batteries, making tiny steps on the spiritual path. This one is missing and I am not sure if it might due to the fact that I might be better off with another approach. My impression from what I read in the forum is that at least some changes should be noticeable. What do you think?
I think you should continue your practice at the current level, for it is a place of calmness and stillness for you at this time. You are going through, and have gone through, an awful lot right now, and changing practices right now might further upset the apple cart. Therapy can help you gain perspective; be sure to vet them through your inner guru, and keep shopping until you find the best fit for you. Once you feel your personal situation has stabilized somewhat, then reevaluate your practice. As you are apparently sensitive, remember some of your troubles could be echoes of your overload issues; grant yourself patience and focus you loving attention on what you wish to change. |
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Jac
Switzerland
29 Posts |
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Cato
Germany
225 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2022 : 3:48:49 PM
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My friends, I thank you for your different perspectives, this is what I was talking about. This community keeps showing me different points of view when I need them the most.
AYP is my base for spiritual practices and my heart tells me to keep going that way. I very much like its gentle, open, integral and non-judgemental approach. It is simple, easy to understand, nonetheless profound and not so easy to put to work. At least for me. People keep telling me, my will and discipline when doing things are noteable and I have less trouble sticking to habits than others seem to have. It can even go an unhealthy way, be it diet, exercise or spiritual practices. I got my best attention on that point recently. It is a matter of relaxing, letting go, self-care and even letting go of self-care.
AYP is an effective way of practices, self-pacing being an important part of it. On my way I was wondering if an approach with no chance to overload practices (let it be SRF or other) was more suitable for me. My heart tells me no. My heart tells me AYP is the way to go. And on that way I'm longing for some hint, some assurance that it is the right one. Perhaps it is an intellectual mind-thing since my heart already has settled. And since there is no increased peace or calmness during the day, no warm and cool currents during SBP, not more patience with parenting or openness in social interactions, I find confidence in your and others advice. It helps to know that some might not notice anything peculiar for (a) decade(s). And just keep going. The fruits of action are often cited. It is not an easy thing to do, but a worthwhile one. It helps to be reminded. No one said it was going to be easy. Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I guess this one is out of the context but it makes me smile anyway. 
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2022 : 11:23:44 PM
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Hi Cato
Good to hear the overload has settled down.
Here's another take on your situation:
It seems to me that you are very sensitive to practices i.e. that your energy is very easily stirred up. So it tends to run ahead of the silence. Even mantra meditation may be too strong in these circumstances. The vibration of the mantra can be too stimulating for you if the energy is easily roused.
If I were in your shoes, I'd give breath focused meditation a good go. No SPB. Just breath meditation for a few good months, see what happens.
Good luck!
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Cato
Germany
225 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2022 : 10:56:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
It seems to me that you are very sensitive to practices i.e. that your energy is very easily stirred up. So it tends to run ahead of the silence. Even mantra meditation may be too strong in these circumstances. The vibration of the mantra can be too stimulating for you if the energy is easily roused.
Blue, thanks for your advice.
It adds a question that was somehow hidden above: If mantra meditation may be too strong and SBP should be ignored/limited, wouldn't it be more suitable to take up a (less powerful) system that prevents overload or energy running ahead of silence? (for example the above mentioned SRF) |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2022 : 2:49:48 PM
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Hi Cato
Choosing your spiritual practice is a very personal thing, so I will not attempt to answer that question for anyone.
What I can tell you is the reasons why I am staying with AYP myself, even though I am very sensitive to practices too, and there are techniques in the AYP book that I don't even dream to attempt.
- As far as my knowledge of spiritual schools goes, I do not see that I would get anything anywhere else that I can't get in AYP. It is true that the methods for oversensitive practitioners are a bit buried - you have to get to Lesson 367 to get your meditation method if you're sensitive, but all the information you need does exist in the AYP writings.
-AYP gives so much detail about how the spiritual journey unfolds that I feel I am independent of gurus. It has enabled me to troubleshoot and manage my energy and practice in a way that no other system that I ever came across does. No doubt this sort of knowledge is in the head of other experienced teachers, but Yogani has written it down for everyone to peruse.
Of course that's just me, the question as to what path you take is open. You are now able to recognise practices that stimulate the energy versus practices that develop the silence (witness).
You mentioned SRF. See what its practitioners say. To my (limited) knowledge, there is a lot of moving the energy up and down the spine very early on. That might be putting energy cultivation before the witness, that's if my information is correct. I'd say you need to do a fair amount of digging before you decide on a system for the long haul.
I hope this helps.
All the best |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Feb 23 2022 9:16:04 PM |
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Cato
Germany
225 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2022 : 4:41:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
You mentioned SRF. See what its practitioners say. To my (limited) knowledge, there is a lot of moving the energy up and down the spine very early on. That might be putting energy cultivation before the witness, that's if my information is correct. I'd say you need to do a fair amount of digging before you decide on a system for the long haul.
I hope this helps.
All the best
It helps indeed. As I said, I settled with AYP and will take your advice about breathing meditaion to heart. I heard it before and experimented with it, but if I remember correctly not more that a few months. Perhaps I should give it a go for a looong time.
Perhaps someone can comment on your last statement, as quite a lot of practitioners coming from different paths are around. I would like to know if a thing like overload can happen in SRF as well. As you point out, energy practices seem to be similar. So to me, it is plausible that you can end up with overload issues in both worlds. An answer could easily end my brooding over that issue. Thank you. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2022 : 6:25:03 PM
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Hi Cato
I hope other people will contribute their knowledge on this.
As far as my knowledge goes, there is no effective system of practice that does no carry a risk of overload. Think about it: if you have a method that is effective at delivering a certain effect, overapplying it will lead to too much of that effect.
There are systems that contain a lot less in the way of energy stimulation than AYP. Notably, Buddhism, which relies on breadth meditation and insight (what we call passive awareness in AYP) for the entire journey. Even Buddhists can overload, by doing long hours of meditation and indeed some of them have reported very serious overload that took years to clear.
I think the sensible way to deal with the risk of overload is: 1. to warn practitioners and tell them to self pace in the first place; 2. teach them to recognise the tell tell signs early on and 3. give them some grounding methods. AYP does all three. Where we have fallen short in the past (but I think we're getting better) is advising people on the forums. People who are not oversensitive themselves will naturally be less inclined to tell others to reduce their practice. Especially when it comes to the I AM mediation, which is almost emblematic to AYP. It is my impression that some people left AYP because I AM meditation was too strong for them, and they were made to feel that the other types of meditation described in the lessons were second rate temporary replacements. Maybe that needs to be slightly adjusted - if you are chronically oversensitive, you don't return to I AM meditation, you work with breath meditation and passive awareness in the long run. The Buddha, after all, went all the way with concentration on the breath and insight. It is really about finding what works for each of us. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Feb 23 2022 6:54:03 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2022 : 10:21:32 PM
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Hi Cato and all,
quote:
Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I guess this one is out of the context but it makes me smile anyway.
 Maybe Einstein was not enlightened?
On the topic of spiritual paths and energetic purification, it could be useful to look at how AYP works, as an overall system, in terms of self-pacing.
So, if someone is experiencing too much purification happening too fast, they would follow this process, taking each subsequent step, only if necessary. If things have not settled down energetically.
1. Reducing or removing powerful energetic practices such as advanced pranayamas.
2. Reducing or removing energetic stimulation practices such as mudras and bandhas.
3. Reducing the timings for practices such as Deep Meditation, Samyama and Spinal Breathing.
4. If mantra meditation is still too strong, replacing it with breathing meditation for at least 6-months, or with the passive awareness technique, if sufficient inner silence is present.
5. If spinal breathing is still too powerful, replacing it with alternate nostril breathing for some time.
6. If necessary removing pranayama all together, from the practice.
And then, when they are stable, and have been stable for some time, and if they want to, they can increase practices again, going gradually back up through the process in the reverse order.
This is just a rough outline. I did not mention mantra enhancements above, and other details. And of course, if we are needing to self-pace due to energetic overload, we would also be taking more time to come out of meditation, engaging in grounding practices every day, and so on.
But, the important point I am making is that the AYP system is a wide spectrum, which includes many practices. And at one end, someone could be practicing AYP and engaging in a very full, hour-long sitting practice session, twice a day, plus asana practice on top of that. At the other end of the spectrum, someone could be engaging in a short practice of a few minutes of alternate nostril breathing, followed by 10 minutes of breathing meditation, twice a day. Or even less than that, if needed. And both people would be practicing AYP and would be following the process correctly.
And over time, there can be a gradual transition towards one end of the spectrum, or the other end of the spectrum, or we may find that we remain somewhere around the middle. And any of those options is fine, and anything can change at any stage, as purification continues, towards either end of the scale, and that would be fine too.
Sometimes people tell me that they find AYP too powerful, but what that really tells me is that they have not understood how self-pacing works, and that AYP involves a sliding-scale of practices ranging from very gentle, to very powerful.
It is true that breathing meditation is a temporary alternative to mantra meditation in the system, but there is no maximum time limit put on that. The only time limit is a minimum time limit of 6-months, for people who are switching to breathing meditation. But they could remain temporarily with the breath for years, or even decades if needed. Coming back to the mantra would only happen when the subtle nervous system is stable, and has been stable for a long time, because we don't want to be switching meditation objects every few months. And it would only happen if the practitioner wanted it to happen. But, it is important that breathing meditation remains a temporary alternative, otherwise the sliding-scale stops being free-flowing. If breathing meditation stopped being a temporary alternative to mantra meditation, but became a permanent change of meditation object, then people would be moving freely on the self-pacing scale of practices until they hit breathing meditation, and then they would never move on from that, even when they were ready to.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2022 : 02:16:25 AM
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Hi Cato,
p.s.
In terms of when will you begin to feel the effects of practices, that is a difficult question to answer, as it partly depends on what you are looking for and what you call "effects".
In past posts you have talked about experiencing states of ecstasy, and of experiencing pre-orgasmic states that have come without cause. You have also talked about automatic kriyas happening, and using these automatic kriyas as a part of your spiritual practice.
Ecstasy is one of the experiences that comes on the spiritual path and is one of the factors of enlightenment. So, when you say that you are not experiencing signs of progress, it could mean that you are talking about peacefulness. Ecstasy is not always peaceful, right?
You also write about practising strict celibacy, which can increase the prana in the body, and about using advanced pranayamas.
So, it does sound as if you have been getting ahead of yourself energetically, without giving space for peacefulness and inner silence to develop fully. As others have mentioned above, this could indicate a period of breathing meditation rather than mantra meditation would help. It could mean using alternate nostril breathing instead of spinal breathing. And it could mean not practicing strict celibacy for some time. And of course, daily grounding practices would be essential.
Energetic purification can tend to have a "fly wheel" effect, meaning that once it has been set in motion, it can keep spinning for quite a while, even if changes are made to the practice routine. So, you may have to give it some time for things to settle down. This could even be for months, or years, depending on how long the ecstatic states were going on for, and how high the ecstasy was.
Christi |
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2022 : 8:10:45 PM
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Christi, You've done an amazing job of outlining the customization of AYP. I also find your level of engagment with Cato, reviewing past posts to create context very personal and helpful. I have benefited from your insights and practical and clear advice.
Cato, I would add to this discussion my take on the process. I have certainly not been a stranger to the ecstatic aspects of the path. It can be intoxicating and distracting. It does seem to me many people are attracted to these intense experiences as a reassurance they are on the path, rather than as enjoyable "scenery". It feels a little like playing with fire in that once the flywheel effect kicks in, many people's butts get kicked by too much of a good thing. Once in that mode of dialing things back, a certain amount of fear comes into the mix. Self pacing is the magic ingredient for sure in AYP. For those of us who are drawn to the ecstatic more than the calming inner silence, it can be a rougher ride. Christi has certainly outlined a wonderful itinerary for you and others to follow in finding that sweet spot. Having been stable for over a year, I started having a lot of anxiety months after adding spinal bastrika. Christi suggested self pacing. I found immediate relief and now am able to find a nice balance of inner silence and ecstatic conductivity with some fairly subtle shifts in my routine. It is important for me, and I suspect you, to find that right balance so you feel your progress in the pleasant aspects of the practice but not too much so as to generate discomfort. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2022 : 10:56:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
It is true that breathing meditation is a temporary alternative to mantra meditation in the system, but there is no maximum time limit put on that.
This is exactly the stance that, I think, drives oversensitive practitioners away from AYP. When the 'temporary' extend over many months or even years, people start to feel that they'll not able to return to the 'proper' practice and decide AYP is not the system for them. This is where Cato is right now. I know some people have left without asking (how many, no one can know).
Saying to sensitive practitioners that the 'temporary can last years and that's OK' should, in practical terms, straighten things out, but psychologically, it doesn't. For some, there is a feeling of inadequacy, which will prompt them to look for another system, in which they can do the gold standard practice and not have to feel they're incapable to return to the best practice in the book.
Apologies to Cato for diverging from the original intent of this thread, but this could be potentially very useful to AYP. This issue goes to what AYP, as a yoga school, wants to be, to whom it appeals. Sensitivity to practices may be increasing in the general population. AYP has a lot to offer to sensitive practitioners, but, if I'm not mistaken, it does not exactly make them feel at home.
Perhaps Cato can tell us how he perceived the advice to switch from I AM to the breath, how he feels breath focused meditation is positioned in the AYP lessons and in the advice we give in the forum? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2022 : 01:38:26 AM
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Hi BlueRC and all,
My own experience with teaching AYP around the world for the last 13 years, is that people needing to switch to breathing meditation, is quite rare. For most people it is not necessary at all. It would only be necessary if someone developed over-sensitivity to the mantra. And of course, the first response to oversensitivity to the mantra, would be to step back from a higher mantra enhancement, to the previous one, and then to step back in stages, eventually coming to the AYAM mantra alone. Then they would need to still be over-sensitive to the AYAM mantra, in order to need to switch to the breath.
If this does happen, which is rare, and they do need to switch to using the breath, it is usually a short temporary switch, say for six months, or a year, and then they are able to come back to using the mantra again.
So, for someone to need to self-pace down to breathing meditation, and to need to remain with breathing meditation for longer than a year, there would usually be something else going on. In the rare cases where this happens, I find it is often as a result of a practitioner having overdone practices for some time, and of having not self-paced, when they needed to. In other words, it is often extreme cases of long excessive over-doing, often associated with sexual addiction and ecstasy addiction.
Of course there could be someone who is simply very sensitive to spiritual practices by birth, and who has not excessively over-done practices, is very sensitive to mantras, and who needs to self-pace down to breathing meditation for very long periods of time, such as many years. But having taught hundreds of people over the last 13 years, I can think of only one or two people who would fit into this category. So, we are talking very much about one end of a bell-curve, in terms of sensitivity.
But, to change the whole system, because of a small minority of cases, mostly involving ecstasy addiction, and lack of self-pacing, would seem strange to me. Personally, I would say that it would make more sense, to be putting increased emphasis on warning people about the dangers of sexual addiction and ecstasy addiction, and helping people to spot it earlier on, and adjust their practices accordingly.
Cato has been doing his own experiment with the AYP system for a few years. He has been experimenting with using a long, energetic asana sequence, instead of a sequence of shorter classical held asanas. He has been experimenting with replacing asanas with spontaneous kriyas. He has been experimenting with adding additional non-AYP energetic practices to his routine, such as running the fingers along the nadis, in order to cultivate ecstasy. He has been experimenting with combining practices on the mat, with sexual practices such as masturbation. None of these things are advised in the AYP system, so they are a new experiment. And, as with all experiments, they might not work out as planned. It seems, in this case, some aspects of the experiment did not work out as planned.
But, all of this is not a big deal, because the AYP system is also designed to help people who are flying too far out on one wing, to come back to the centre. All he has to do is to come back to the standard AYP practice, using correct self-pacing measures. No extended energetic asana sequences, no over-indulgence in automatic kriyas, no additional non-AYP energetic practices, no combining sitting practices with sexual practices, and self-pacing and grounding as needed.
Cato has been sharing all his experiments with practices, here on the forums, and I have been advising him to self-pace downwards for quite some time now, as have others. Sometimes people do not want to follow that advice. This is usually because their bhakti is strong, and they prefer to put up with some discomfort, rather than to follow the advice given. If someone wants to do their own experiments with practices, and to not follow advice, then there are a limited number of options available. I would say that changing the system, would be the very last one. Letting someone learn from their mistakes (or experiments), and adjust things accordingly, could be the first one.
This lesson talks about not replacing practices with automatic yoga movements:
Lesson 385 - Review on Building a Baseline Practice Routine
"In some systems of practice there are certain times when automatic yoga in the form of physical movements may be permitted to occur as part of the practice. In the AYP system of practices, this may be more likely during samyama when stillness is more inclined to be moving us physically, and to lesser degrees during other sitting practices, where we do not fight against swaying and other occasional spontaneous movements that might occur during the normal course of our practices. This does not mean we depart from our practice and focus our full attention on the automatic yoga. This can be counterproductive, leading to overdoing, particularly with changes in breathing or suspensions of breath." [Yogani]
The advice on not combining sexual activity with sitting practices is in this lesson:
Lesson T33 - Spinal Breathing during Tantric Sex?
"...combining sitting practices with tantric sex can lead to additional releases of obstructions that must be regulated in some way so as not to become excessive...
The time-related matters are of great importance in yoga. Without regularity and correct measurement of practices, yoga can quickly fly out of control, and quite a few people in the main lessons have commented in the Q&As on aspects of experience from sitting practices related to this. In fact, most of the Q&As are about pacing practices to accommodate experiences. It can be a tricky business to keep balance in advanced yoga practices. For this reason, using sexual relations as a primary means for yoga is like trying to row a small boat across the ocean in a hurricane." [Yogani]
Advice on not using a long, energetic asana sequence before sitting practices is here:
Lesson 383 - Yoga Asanas - Traditional or Modern?
"Modern asanas have some conspicuous differences from the traditional approach. They are usually stand-alone, not a preparation for sitting practices. And even though many of the postures may be similar or the same as the ones found in a traditional routine, the intensity and speed with which they are done may be more akin to an athletic workout than an easy routine of systematic bending and stretching. The modern routine may be much longer than is necessary for sitting practices preparation. The room temperature may also be raised to "work up a sweat." Clearly, such rigorous asana routines are not a preparation for sitting practices. They are not designed to be.
So this is the main difference between traditional and modern asana practice. One is designed as a preparation for sitting practices, and the other is designed as a stand-alone fitness workout.
These two modes are not nearly as far apart as might appear on the surface. For example, a modern asana routine can be slowed down and shortened to be an excellent preparation for sitting practices. So all is not lost. But let's save the long strenuous routines and "hot yoga" for at least an hour before sitting practices, or any time after. That kind of routine comes under the category of physical exercise, and we know that this is not a preparation for sitting practices. It doesn't mean we can't do it if we enjoy it. Just not as a preparation for sitting practices." [Yogani]
The advice on not over-doing it with asanas is here:
Lesson 145 - Overdoing it with Asanas
Over-doing by doubling-up on energetic practices is discussed in this lesson:
Addition 367.6 - Sensitivity vs. Progress with Different Styles of Meditation
"I am generally not able to project results for practices outside the AYP baseline, which I am constantly asked about. Every day, people ask, "Well, what if I try this, or that? What will happen?" The truth is, in most cases, I do not know. I can advise on generic aspects like general principles, overdoing by "doubling up" with similar practices (which is very common), etc. See Lesson 384 for more on these scenarios." [Yogani]
Why breathing meditation is a temporary replacement for mantra meditation, only for very sensitive practitioners, is also discussed in the same lesson addition:
"What I can say in this case is that using breath as object will work for cultivating abiding inner silence, but it will take longer than with mantra, with less chance of overload in sensitive practitioners. The passive awareness technique (and maybe similar methods as you describe) will also cultivate abiding inner silence, assuming there is some abiding inner silence to begin with, and that will take longer than breath meditation with even less chance of overload." [Yogani]
This is not to say that people cannot do their own experiments if they want to. But, we can't go changing the whole system, just because of experiments that don't go as planned. It is the people doing the experiments that need to adjust what they are doing according to results.
In general I advise people only to start engaging in their own experiments if they are already advanced on the path, can feel prana flowing through their body, are aware of the overall principles of energetic purification, and are already stable energetically and have been for a long time. Engaging in experiments is not something that relatively inexperienced practitioners should be doing.
Not engaging in modifications to the baseline of practices, in the early stages of the path, is discussed in this lesson:
Lesson 384 - Baseline Systems of Practice and Research on Modifications
"On the other hand, doing independent exploration and innovation is not about trying 50 things in rapid succession and benefiting little from any of them. Neither is it about adding excessive variations and complexity into a baseline system whose purpose is to provide simple and effective means for practitioners to activate the essential principles of human spiritual transformation. Upon such basics, and a stable daily routine of practice, the explorations and modifications can occur in a careful and fruitful way, not much before. Beginners deserve some clarity. This is why I always suggest newcomers review the AYP lessons before delving too much into variations on practice, other than self-pacing as needed. In spiritual matters, less is usually more, and it is up to each of us to craft our own approach in concert with our unique process of purification and opening." [Yogani]
Christi
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Dogboy
USA
2198 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2022 : 04:54:10 AM
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| This is a great review and discussion. Cato, I hope you weigh in. I have been blessed to have had almost nine stable years of AYP, and my current practice is highly arousing, so this thread is a good reminder to honor daily DM, ground at every available opportunity, and to keep Bhakti on a leash loose enough to move comfortably forward without yielding balance. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2022 : 05:34:39 AM
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quote:
And of course, the first response to oversensitivity to the mantra, would be to step back from a higher mantra enhancement, to the previous one, and then to step back in stages, eventually coming to the AYAM mantra alone. Then they would need to still be over-sensitive to the AYAM mantra, in order to need to switch to the breath.
Dear Christi,
I have not considered dropping back on mantra enhancement but have rather always played with time when self-pacing. Is it ok to scale back to the previous mantra enhancement even if you have been doing it for many years? I thought that was done if someone had recently added a mantra enhancement which was now creating un-comfortableness.
Sey
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2022 : 06:24:16 AM
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Hi Sey,
Someone can develop over-sensitivity to the mantra at any point, not only after a recent mantra change. Of course, if we are experiencing energetic overload, it is not always easy to know if it is due to oversensitivity to the mantra, or to the amount of purification being produced by the practices in general. So, some experimenting may be necessary, adjusting timings of practices, to see if that helps. But, sometimes it is possible to know if it is being caused by the mantra, and even which syllable within the overall mantra is causing the problem, because we can feel the effect within the subtle nervous system.
So, the short answer is, yes, we can self-pace downwards with mantra enhancements, even if we have been using a particular enhancement for a long time. And this can happen due to increased sensitivity having been developed over time.
In general, it is recommended not to be switching mantras too often, so there is less flexibility with moving between mantra enhancements than there is with adjusting timings of practices. The general recommendation would be to allow at least 6 months to settle in with a new mantra. These time recommendations don't apply when self-pacing downwards though, due to overload. Only when self-pacing upwards.
Christi
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2022 : 4:09:51 PM
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Thank you for your very thorough reply, Christi
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
But, to change the whole system, because of a small minority of cases, mostly involving ecstasy addiction, and lack of self-pacing, would seem strange to me.
I completely agree that the system should not be changed on account of rare exceptions.
I must observe that one of us must be subject to selective attention. It may well be me, because I'm under the impression these cases are not rare. I have seen them in the forum, people complaining of massive overload, then disappearing for good. It is possible, as you said yourself before, that our forum is the yoga equivalent of an A&E - lots of 'broken heads', not reflecting the numbers in the general population. either that, or people who have discovered themselves to be oversensitive don't go to meet yoga teachers.
I am one case myself - passive awareness has been my meditation practice for some years. It's working fine, I can see progress. I know what is stopping me return to the mantra. There are some impurities, which the vibration of he mantra sends rattling through the system, in a very uncomfortable way. So I don't do mantra. The awareness is slowly dissolving the impurities. I haven't got to the bottom of them yet, but they are remnants compared to what there was 3 or 4 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
it would make more sense, to be putting increased emphasis on warning people about the dangers of sexual addiction and ecstasy addiction, and helping people to spot it earlier on, and adjust their practices accordingly.
Well, that advice would not have done anything for me at any point in my life. I've never noticed myself to have a sexual addiction. It is possible that I might have an ecstasy addiction. if that be the case, I came with it into this world, because I have not cultivated it during this life time.
I guess the crux of the matter, as far as AYP is concerned, is what the statistics are out there. If you are right about these cases being rare, then nothing needs to be done. I hope, for the sake of the 'exceptions', that they don't fret about staying with breath or passive awareness meditation for indefinite number of years and are able to take all the help that AYP has to offer (as I believe I do, and gratefully so).
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Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Feb 25 2022 4:10:27 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2022 : 4:40:31 PM
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Other other thought:
It may be possible for AYP to help long-term sensitive practitioners without turning the whole system topsy-turvy. Could there be an AYP for long them sensitives, or chronically oversensitive? (I don't know what we would call it). |
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Dogboy
USA
2198 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2022 : 8:55:33 PM
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quote:
Is it ok to scale back to the previous mantra enhancement even if you have been doing it for many years?
Over my daughter's college break, we set up our first meditation together, before she returned to school. I decided to drop back to AYAM again the week before this, so it would feel natural as I taught her. The funny thing, after years of the full enchantment, I found the simple AYAM more satisfying, even from early AYP, and have stayed with it since.  |
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Cato
Germany
225 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2022 : 10:12:48 PM
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I thank you all for this discussion and the ones we had before. I very much appreciate the helpfulness and supporting spirit of this community. And sorry for chiming in a little late. Didn't want to post an underdone answer.
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
This is exactly the stance that, I think, drives oversensitive practitioners away from AYP. When the 'temporary' extend over many months or even years, people start to feel that they'll not able to return to the 'proper' practice and decide AYP is not the system for them. This is where Cato is right now. I know some people have left without asking (how many, no one can know).
Saying to sensitive practitioners that the 'temporary can last years and that's OK' should, in practical terms, straighten things out, but psychologically, it doesn't. For some, there is a feeling of inadequacy, which will prompt them to look for another system, in which they can do the gold standard practice and not have to feel they're incapable to return to the best practice in the book.
Apologies to Cato for diverging from the original intent of this thread, but this could be potentially very useful to AYP. This issue goes to what AYP, as a yoga school, wants to be, to whom it appeals. Sensitivity to practices may be increasing in the general population. AYP has a lot to offer to sensitive practitioners, but, if I'm not mistaken, it does not exactly make them feel at home.
This post very much resonated with me, thanks Blue! It excellently describes my thinking during the past few months.
Christi, I very much love your caring and thoughtful advice and I am often looking forward to it. I understand your point and would like to add another one. AYP was my very first place to go after going through some kind of powerful kundalini experiences. At least, kundalini was what I was told in the forum after describing this very first events of mine. I had done prolonged sessions of ashtanga and hatha yoga before, but no experience with TM, SRF, Ananda or other. Over the time, I learned that many people here have some spiritual journey history of one way or another. I had not and the concepts of ecstacy, overload, kriyas and so on were (and are) difficult for me to grasp. I'm not able to tell if those kriyas I am experiencing are still kriyas or by now are more some kind of an intuitive asana sequence. In the beginning, I most certainly would have described them as automatic kriyas, in the meantime it really is more intuitive than something else. The same goes for ecstatic experiences. And the same goes for pre-orgasmic states. And that is part of the problem, because the borders are floating and hard to identify.
I definitely would like to point out, that I am absolutely not into experimenting and into going some way apart from how AYP is meant to be. If I do so, it is clearly due to a lack of unterstanding on my part. If I come across as one not taking advice, I apologize. It is certainly not the case. I have no interest of experimenting. I take and took self-pacing and advice to this effect to heart. I have skipped celibacy long ago. I have no sexual addiction and see coming ecstacy with high caution, wishing it to ebb away as soon as possible, knowing to where it leads. I integrated "kriyas" because from time to time, I felt quite grounded after doing them. I experience pre-orgasmic states, but I have no wish of summoning them. I experience them when I lie in bed or I awaken in the middle of the night. Following nadis with my fingers was part in the very beginning and early stages of my practices. I skipped it long ago. It has ceased being part of the (early) kriyas anyway. I exchanged ashtanga for a routine of body-weight-exercises long ago (sometimes looking how I feel with some yoga session in between - easy asanas and never more than 30 minutes). My goal is to find silence, peacefulness, calmness and I strive to align my practices accordingly. It is certainly not my goal to experiment with ecstasy. What I do experiment with is to find a sustainable way of grounding. I tested the means given in the forum, qigong, taichi, weight-lifting, walking barefoot, being outdoors, being social, being in the nature. I trained taichi daily for weeks. I practice masturbation not more than once a week and only as a means for grounding and never to cultivate ecstasy. After all, you have to find a way to balance between being celibate and not. If there is a better way, please tell me. I guess grounding is very hard when the practices are out of scope. And it took me quite a while to realize that they were out of scope. First I had to grasp the concept of overloading. Am I just a little irritable or tired? For a time I did not correlate those feelings and emotions with spiritual practice at all. It is still difficult to tell the average up and down from too-much-practice symptoms. Until it gets really out of hand.
BlueRaincoat has pinned down my current state quite well. As Christi says, cases of over-sensitive meditators having to turn to breathing meditation are quite rare. Those who have to stay there for a prolonged amount of time even rarer. So the question arises, is it probable to be one of those rare individuals or is the system just not fitting? You start to look around and catch glimpses of other approaches where overloading issues are ruled out completely. As is the case for SRF for example. Feeling very home with AYP, the question keeps lingering in the back of my mind if SRF wouldn't a the more reason-able choice, given the circumstances (so it would help to know if similar issues can arise there, Blue gave a first insight). As Blue has observed well, that is the point I am right now. I tried to explain my affection for AYP, my love for its people and simplicity. I convinced myself that breathing meditation is as much a part from AYP as mantra meditation is and I hope this point of view is correct. I would like to see it as an option for over-seensitive meditators that can be picked without feeling inadequate or feeling to be in a transitional pre-AYP state that has to be traversed as soon as possible. Mainly from Blue's posts, I now regard it as equivalent. I understand (perhaps wrongly) that the under-sensitive meditator can (with a lesser amount of time and less powerful practices) progress as fast as the "regular" meditator does. I would not like to think of mantra meditation as a goal to achieve rather than another option for a still unkown future. Just as breathing meditation is a future option for the other side of the bell curve. However, as the lessons strongly focus on mantra meditation and spinal breathing pranayama, it took me quite some time to get to this understanding.
I still do not know for certain if these parts of my understanding are 100% correct. It is the big picture I made myself. Regarding over-sensitivity, it is mentioned in the lessons, but covered marginal. For the full-scope over-sensitive meditator, some more lessons would certainly be helpful. For the issue, I find the most helpful information in the forum posts. On the other hand, being a low bell curve problem, I don't know if it is justified. I would appreciate it for sure. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2022 : 11:45:22 PM
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quote:
I completely agree that the system should not be changed on account of rare exceptions.
I must observe that one of us must be subject to selective attention. It may well be me, because I'm under the impression these cases are not rare. I have seen them in the forum, people complaining of massive overload, then disappearing for good. It is possible, as you said yourself before, that our forum is the yoga equivalent of an A&E - lots of 'broken heads', not reflecting the numbers in the general population. either that, or people who have discovered themselves to be oversensitive don't go to meet yoga teachers.
Hi BlueRC,
I don't think it is necessarily the case that one of us has selective attention. It could be that we simply have different experiences. I would certainly caution against using reports in the forums as a general measure of the overall population of AYP practitioners. One reason, as you mentioned, is that people tend to only come here for support, if they are having difficulties (the A&E effect). But, another reason is that when people do come here for support, we often do not know their past history. We often don't know what they were doing before they began AYP practices, for example, and what the long-term results of those practices could be, if any. In some cases, we do not even know if they have ever practiced AYP at all? So, in terms of gathering data on the results of practices, it is not very useful, and it was not designed to be. Anyone can practice anything they like and come here for help, if they need it. And we offer them that support and help. And many people have come here over the years from other spiritual traditions, seeking help, often because those other traditions don't offer support. So, we have our own A&E room, which has often doubled-up as every-other-tradition's A&E room as well! 
So, in terms of collecting useful information on the whole range of experiences of practitioners, we could ask the question of how we can do that. If the forums have an A&E bias, and include many people from other traditions, then what else can we use? Of course there are the experiences of the teachers working out in the world, and the experiences of their students. But as you say, if people are over-sensitive to practices, they may not seek out a teacher. So, that is not going to be 100% accurate either. But people don't need to practice AYP at home, before coming to classes or retreats, they can simply start with a teacher, as a complete beginner, and this often happens. So, we get to see how people progress, who begin the path of AYP with a teacher, and how their experiences change over the years.
There is also the AYP Survey form that was put together some years ago, with some of the results reported in this post.
So, we do have different ways of measuring how people respond to the system of practices over time, which I think are reasonably good. And of course, they could always be improved.
quote:
I am one case myself - passive awareness has been my meditation practice for some years. It's working fine, I can see progress. I know what is stopping me return to the mantra. There are some impurities, which the vibration of he mantra sends rattling through the system, in a very uncomfortable way. So I don't do mantra. The awareness is slowly dissolving the impurities. I haven't got to the bottom of them yet, but they are remnants compared to what there was 3 or 4 years ago.
If the passive awareness technique is working well for you, then that is great. And that is following correct AYP practice. If you feel the mantra would be too stimulating energetically, then it would not be the right thing to do to go back to that at this stage. Generally I find that it is advanced practitioners that need to self-pace down to the passive awareness technique. Beginners usually do not have enough sensitivity to spiritual practices, to need to be doing something like that.
In terms of our mentality towards different meditation objects (or lack of object in the case of the passive awareness technique), that can vary from practitioner to practitioner. Someone could have the feeling that they are doing something temporarily, that is in some way inadequate to the "gold standard practice". Or, they could have feelings of gratitude, that an alternative meditation method is available for people going through powerful stages of awakening, and high levels of sensitivity. That was actually how I felt during periods when I switched to using the passive awareness technique, due to sensitivity issues. If even using the AYAM mantra would be too much, then there is clearly a lot of purification taking place. So, being grateful that that purification is happening, and that we can continue to practice whilst it is going on, could be one quality to develop.
That would be my approach, and has been over the years. And I feel that this is important, especially for continuing a spiritual practice over the long-term. Because, who can say how long the process of purification will take? Or how it will manifest and change over time? Or what practices will be needed at different stages, and for how long? So, cultivating the attitude of: "This is how it is right now, and this is fine", can be very powerful. And of course, that is an endgame practice, as well as something useful to cultivate at any point. So, there is never a time when that is not useful.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2022 : 02:23:44 AM
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quote:
I definitely would like to point out, that I am absolutely not into experimenting and into going some way apart from how AYP is meant to be. If I do so, it is clearly due to a lack of unterstanding on my part. If I come across as one not taking advice, I apologize. It is certainly not the case. I have no interest of experimenting. I take and took self-pacing and advice to this effect to heart. I have skipped celibacy long ago. I have no sexual addiction and see coming ecstacy with high caution, wishing it to ebb away as soon as possible, knowing to where it leads. I integrated "kriyas" because from time to time, I felt quite grounded after doing them. I experience pre-orgasmic states, but I have no wish of summoning them. I experience them when I lie in bed or I awaken in the middle of the night. Following nadis with my fingers was part in the very beginning and early stages of my practices. I skipped it long ago. It has ceased being part of the (early) kriyas anyway. I exchanged ashtanga for a routine of body-weight-exercises long ago (sometimes looking how I feel with some yoga session in between - easy asanas and never more than 30 minutes). My goal is to find silence, peacefulness, calmness and I strive to align my practices accordingly. It is certainly not my goal to experiment with ecstasy. What I do experiment with is to find a sustainable way of grounding. I tested the means given in the forum, qigong, taichi, weight-lifting, walking barefoot, being outdoors, being social, being in the nature. I trained taichi daily for weeks. I practice masturbation not more than once a week and only as a means for grounding and never to cultivate ecstasy. After all, you have to find a way to balance between being celibate and not. If there is a better way, please tell me. I guess grounding is very hard when the practices are out of scope.
Hi Cato,
Thanks for your clarification. I am aware that often the boundaries are blurred. How do we know when are we engaged in a long session of spontaneous kriyas, or simply engaged in a spontaneous asana sequence, that feels "right"? It is not always easy to say. Or when are we creating ecstasy in the body through the movement of our attention, or simply experiencing ecstasy happening automatically, with our attention following that? Again, it is not always clear. And how do we know what is too much ecstasy, or what is fine?
I feel that this is one of the arts that we have to cultivate on the path, when we reach the ecstatic stages. We simply have to develop a sense of what is too much and what is the right amount. And we usually only know what is too much, after the fact, and then we have to adjust things accordingly going forwards.
But it sounds like, in general, you are experiencing much more balance and stability in your practice. So, either you are getting the balance right now, or you simply worked through a lot of purification, and so that is out of the way.
As far as masturbation goes, or sexual release in general, yes, pure celibacy can be too much for many people, causing too much sexual energy to build up in the body. So, masturbation can be helpful as a release of energy, from time-to-time. What I was referring to above, was not combining masturbation with spiritual practices, because it can be too stimulating energetically. Sex cuts both ways!
With regards to breathing meditation, it is not that breathing meditation is pre-AYP. It is very much part of AYP, available to everyone, throughout their spiritual journey, as needed. The same goes for the passive awareness technique, which is also readily available as needed, but is restricted only to people who have sufficient inner silence developed.
With grounding practices, different practices work differently for different people. So, it can be a case of experimenting a bit. Some people would find practices such as Tai Chi and Chi Gong grounding, whilst others would find them stimulating. The same would go for weight lifting. I find that most people find walking and swimming very grounding. That seems to be fairly universal. And yes, recognising the symptoms of energetic overload are not always easy. Are we just having a bad day, or is something actually up? That is also one of the arts of yoga, recognising the symptoms of energetic overload and acting accordingly. There can be a stage of practice, where we are adjusting things in a small way, almost daily, according to what is going on in the subtle nervous system. For example, we may decide to leave siddhasana out one day, if we are using it in general, because there is already a gentle flow of ecstasy in the body, and we know that more is not needed. So, self-pacing can become a very fine art.
And it is true that suggestions for over-sensitive meditators do not get a lot of attention in the lessons. There are the self-pacing instructions in lesson 69 and throughout the lessons. But breathing meditation as an alternative does not get mentioned until lesson 367. We are in the process of changing that gradually. There is a video course being filmed in German at the moment, which will be an introduction to AYP, and the suggestion of breathing meditation as an alternative for over-sensitive practitioners will be included in that course. A similar course is being filmed in English. Those video courses will also include the suggestion for using alternate nostril breathing as an alternative to spinal breathing for over-sensitive meditators. It is a small change, but it means people will be aware of these options earlier on.
As far as the question of which tradition to follow, that is very much a personal choice. I would say that if you are drawn to SRF, why not explore that? If you find something that works better for you, then that will be a good thing. I would be surprised if SRF practitioners never experience energetic overload? I am not sure who said that? But there could be elements of the practice that you may find helpful. It is not a system that I have ever practiced myself, so I cannot advise on that.
If you do decide to use the SRF techniques, then I would caution against doubling-up on practices, especially on energetic practices. It could be best to use either the AYP practices, or the SRF practices, at least until you find a stable platform and have been stable for quite some time.
For a comparison of AYP and SRF you may find this thread useful.
Christi
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2022 : 11:04:52 AM
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It's great to see this discussion unfolding, thank you both. These are issues that I have felt, for some time, that we needed to discuss.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
We are in the process of changing that gradually. There is a video course being filmed in German at the moment, which will be an introduction to AYP, and the suggestion of breathing meditation as an alternative for over-sensitive practitioners will be included in that course. A similar course is being filmed in English. Those video courses will also include the suggestion for using alternate nostril breathing as an alternative to spinal breathing for over-sensitive meditators. It is a small change, but it means people will be aware of these options earlier on.
Wonderful news, Christi, thank you for the update.
Would it make sense to have a forum section dedicated to sensitive meditators? There are important issues to discuss e.g. breath vs passive awareness. When does the latter become an option, how to recognise when you're in a position to benefit from it etc. Are other practices e.g. samyama a good idea when you're on breath or passive awareness meditation? These are of course examples. There is a world of issues and questions related to yoga for sensitive practitioners. It might be helpful if we recognise them as a user group and give them a dedicated space on the AYP forums.
The survey that you linked in your post above, Christi, lists "deep meditation" under question #3. That it the I AM meditation, isn't it? Or does the term also cover breath and passive awareness meditation?
I think this survey used to me much more visible on the AYP website in the past. Are people still finding it nowadays?
Cato, I hope you are getting useful answers to your questions. Good luck making your decisions about your yoga practice/method. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2022 : 11:49:45 AM
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Hi BlueRC,
It may be possible to create a new forum for over-sensitive meditator questions and feedback. This could also include self-pacing issues. In the meantime, any of these questions and issues can be brought up in the Satsang Cafe.
In the survey, yes, "Deep Meditation" refers to meditation with the mantra. If people are using breathing meditation, or the passive awareness technique as temporary practices, due to sensitivity issues, then those can be mentioned in the "other practices section".
This is a short note from Yogani on the subject:
"recommended variations in technique offered for sensitive meditators should be mentioned as appropriate in the "other practices" notes below the practices checkoff list, and elsewhere, like question 6. That's on the assumption that the practitioner is in a temporary situation to deal with sensitivity, starting with AYP DM and hopefully coming back to it later as appropriate. It is their AYP meditation practice and all part of the same system. Results can be reported accordingly in corresponding parts of the survey, including notes on any measures taken to deal with sensitivity...
I believe when the survey was conceived, we had not delved as deeply into addressing sensitivity issues as we eventually did. And it was a good thing we did because I believe it has helped a lot of people. Sensitivity measures can be covered on an individual basis in the notes in the survey. Practice times and such in the survey should reflect what the person is doing, regardless of AYP meditation variation one might be using." [Yogani]
Regarding the AYP survey, it is linked to from the main menu of the AYP website. It is also linked to from the left menu. So, it is still quite visible, and people are filling it in. Because of the nature of the survey program, for now, we only get occasional updates on results. The most recent update was in 2019, and the results from that can be found here.
https://www.aypinternational.com/ay...-march-2019/
This shows the results from the most recent 100 people up until March 24th 2019. Hopefully another update will come soon.
Christi
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Rethinking practices
