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Dairwolf
Germany
7 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 02 2021 : 8:09:37 PM
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Hi everyone.
I am able to think the mantra effortlessly most of the time. I was wondering what one is supposed to be thinking between thinking the mantra two times.
The mantra itself is a word/ sound, so I think or "imagine" the word or sound with my inner ear. Should one also imagine the silence between two mantras? In other words, should one imagine "the sound of nothing" or "the absence of sound"?
Or is the task to pay attention to the thoughts that arise between thinking the mantras two times? Of maybe to even pay attention to your attention and where it wanders between thinking the sound of the mantra two times?
Thank you for your feedback.
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Stille
Germany
76 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2021 : 8:39:58 PM
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Dear Dairwolf,
welcome to the forums. It's a pleasure to meet you 
It is not necessary to imagine the silence between mantra repetitions. The silence is there already, in fact it is everywhere. You will notice it more and more as your mind becomes more quiet due to the regular practice over months and years. You also don't need to pay attention to the thoughts that arise in your mind. If you notice anything that is not the mantra, that means that you have lost the mantra. Then you gently return to it. The goal is to place your attention softly on the object of meditation (the mantra) and to choose it over any other object which may or may not be there at the same time. :)
Hope that helps you out,
Stille
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2021 : 05:49:07 AM
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Dear Dairwolf,
Welcome to the forums. The mantra is to be repeated back to back, that is, continuously. If this is your first time meditating, you will likely not be noticing anything between two repeats of the mantra - there is no pause between them. However, as the mantra refines and the mind stills, you may notice that you fall into silence. As soon as you notice you are in silence and not repeating the mantra, you gently start the mantra again. Equally if you go off into thoughts, you go back to the mantra.
Try not to overthink it and simply follow the procedure as described in Lesson 13 linked in here
https://www.aypsite.org/13.html
Enjoy your practice
Sey
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Christi
United Kingdom
4518 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2021 : 1:03:10 PM
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Hi Dairwold,
You may find this forum discussion helpful, where Yogani talks about the importance of not deliberately putting gaps in between mantra repetitions:
https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...OPIC_ID=9738
Be sure to read the whole thread as the instructions in the first post are not correct DM practice.
Basically, the practice of DM is a very simple one, where we repeat the mantra silently, and come back to it when we realise we are off it. If you find yourself wondering what you should be thinking, then when you notice that, favour the mantra instead over that thought. You don't need to stop the thoughts from happening, but if you favour the mantra with your attention over these thoughts, the thoughts will die down on their own in time. Then, other thoughts will arise and you can favour the mantra with your attention over those as well. And gradually, the mind comes to rest in stillness and silence. The mantra will still be there, but it will be in an ocean of silence. This is the first stage of spiritual awakening.
Christi |
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Dairwolf
Germany
7 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2021 : 11:07:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stille
Dear Dairwolf,
welcome to the forums. It's a pleasure to meet you
It is not necessary to imagine the silence between mantra repetitions. The silence is there already, in fact it is everywhere. You will notice it more and more as your mind becomes more quiet due to the regular practice over months and years. You also don't need to pay attention to the thoughts that arise in your mind. If you notice anything that is not the mantra, that means that you have lost the mantra. Then you gently return to it. The goal is to place your attention softly on the object of meditation (the mantra) and to choose it over any other object which may or may not be there at the same time. :)
Hope that helps you out,
Stille
Thank you very much for your reply.
My problem is, I don´t know what belongs to the mantra and what doesn´t. ^^ Of course, any thoughts about topics that don´t relate to the mantra, don´t have to do with the mantra. Are thoughts like "I am going to think the mantra now again" parts of the mantra? Or e.g. having the syllable in the "back of your head" and then thinking it again?
I know I am overcomplicating things here. That is just one tendency of mine, in all aspects of life.
Dairwolf
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Dairwolf
Germany
7 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2021 : 11:13:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Dear Dairwolf,
Welcome to the forums. The mantra is to be repeated back to back, that is, continuously. If this is your first time meditating, you will likely not be noticing anything between two repeats of the mantra - there is no pause between them. However, as the mantra refines and the mind stills, you may notice that you fall into silence. As soon as you notice you are in silence and not repeating the mantra, you gently start the mantra again. Equally if you go off into thoughts, you go back to the mantra.
Try not to overthink it and simply follow the procedure as described in Lesson 13 linked in here
https://www.aypsite.org/13.html
Enjoy your practice
Sey
Thank you very much for your reply.
Could you specify what you mean by "there is no pause between them"?
I do notice a whole lot between thinking two mantras. I will notice thoughts that don´t belong to the mantra (and will think the mantra then), I will notice me trying to not let my attention fade away (which I think is an effort and as such to be avoided), I will notice myself "thinking of thinking the mantra", as in "I will think the mantra now"... That´s why I am so confused.
I can think the syllable, but I don´t know what to do after that. I don notice positive effects of the meditation practice and I will keep on going. 
Thank you! |
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Dairwolf
Germany
7 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2021 : 11:15:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Dairwold,
You may find this forum discussion helpful, where Yogani talks about the importance of not deliberately putting gaps in between mantra repetitions:
https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...OPIC_ID=9738
Be sure to read the whole thread as the instructions in the first post are not correct DM practice.
Basically, the practice of DM is a very simple one, where we repeat the mantra silently, and come back to it when we realise we are off it. If you find yourself wondering what you should be thinking, then when you notice that, favour the mantra instead over that thought. You don't need to stop the thoughts from happening, but if you favour the mantra with your attention over these thoughts, the thoughts will die down on their own in time. Then, other thoughts will arise and you can favour the mantra with your attention over those as well. And gradually, the mind comes to rest in stillness and silence. The mantra will still be there, but it will be in an ocean of silence. This is the first stage of spiritual awakening.
Christi
Thank you very much for your reply. I will dafinetely take the time and read the recommended thread. From a first glance, it might be exactly what I was looking for.
Dairwolf |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2021 : 05:07:42 AM
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Dear Dairwolf,
Mantra with Pause between: "AYAM... secs/mins pass by... AYAM... secs/mins... AYAM"
Mantra with no pause between: "AYAMAYAMAYAMAYAMAYAMAYAM"
Sey |
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Dairwolf
Germany
7 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2021 : 7:27:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Dear Dairwolf,
Mantra with Pause between: "AYAM... secs/mins pass by... AYAM... secs/mins... AYAM"
Mantra with no pause between: "AYAMAYAMAYAMAYAMAYAMAYAM"
Sey
Dear SeySorciere,
do you meditate that way and do you get the effect that you want?
If I use your description, I do meditate with a pause and it is working for me. I am still figuring out the finer aspects of how to deal with the pause.
Best regards,
Dairwolf |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4518 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2021 : 11:13:35 PM
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Hi Dairwolf and all,
Here are a few quotes from Yogani, which may help to clarify this issue of spaces between mantra repetitions (bold added):
"The baseline procedure of deep meditation is to easily pick up and mentally repeat the mantra whenever we become aware that we are not, which will work for everyone, regardless of the degree of resident inner silence available. This allows for systematic refinement of the mantra to stillness no matter what the practitioner's condition of abiding inner silence may be.
Releasing the mantra into the "gap" (of stillness) is not part of the procedure of deep meditation. It is relevant when using sutras in samyama, which is a more advanced practice, and distinctly different from deep meditation. Deep meditation cultivates inner silence. Samyama develops our ability to operate in inner silence, gradually giving rise to "stillness in action" in all of our daily activity." [Yogani]. From here
"we do not cease repetition of the mantra as it falls away -- no deliberate letting go in-between repetitions of the mantra. It is the repetition itself that becomes more and more refined, until it dissolves into a single stream of subtle vibration, and stillness. Then when we come out of that in thoughts or sensations, and recognize that we have, we easily begin the repetition again at whatever level of clarity or faint fuzziness we are at in the mind. This could happen only a few times in a sitting, or a hundred times, depending on the purification and opening that is occurring (it will vary from sitting to sitting -- and no meditation is better than another in this). This procedure systematically brings the entire mental process to rest in stillness (even if we are filled with thoughts during our meditation), and this is what cultivates abiding inner silence over time." [Yogani] From here
"Yes, the mantra is repeated "back to back" when sitting, and the whole process is lost and easily picked up again as often as necessary. There is no forcing in it, once we get past the clunky (learning) stage. When we say "easily pick up the mantra," we mean easily pick up back to back repetition." [Yogani] From here
"If you have had the thought, "The mantra is always there" you have just gone off the mantra. If you are noticing the mantra doing something or other, you are off the mantra. What the mantra is doing does not matter. What we are doing with our available attention is everything." [Yogani] From here
""Back-to-back" does not mean some sort of regimented repetition. It means just picking up with mental repetition and not planning anything as we use the mantra. It can get fast or slow, seem stuck in one constant pattern, or have no discernible tempo at all -- just a subtle feeling. None of this is determined by our will (the key point). The neurobiology is what determines it, depending on what is going on with purification and opening at the time, and this will keep changing (there can be experiential plateaus from time to time). This is why we say the experience can be anything, and we don't evaluate it. We just do the procedure. The results will show up in our daily activity, no matter what the experience in meditation may be." [Yogani] [Bold added] From here
"The truth is that if we are continuously imposing a time gap in mantra repetition, or continuously imposing back-to-back repetition, both are wrong. Continuously imposing any kind of structure in mantra repetition is wrong. But we have to start somewhere, so we begin by easily repeating the mantra silently back to back, and letting it go as it will. And that is also how we pick it back up when we notice we have gone off it, wherever it is in clarity or faintness, without imposing a continuous mental structure on it. It is so simple. Yet in our minds we strive to make it complicated. Just start the mantra and let it go how it will. Then when we notice we are not on it, come back to it and let it go how it will. Like that. When we find ourselves in stillness and notice we are off the mantra, we come back to it again at that very faint level, letting it go how it will, which will take us deeper." [Yogani] [Bold added] From here
Hopefully that offers some clarity on the subject of repeating the mantra and gaps appearing between one mantra repetition and the next.
Christi |
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Dairwolf
Germany
7 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2021 : 4:20:46 PM
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Dear Christi,
thank you very much for the quotes.
"It is the repetition itself that becomes more and more refined, until it dissolves into a single stream of subtle vibration, and stillness. "
That rang a bell with me. I think I do "feel" these subtle vibrations and the stillness between the repetition of "two mantras". So I think it might be ok to consider these vibrations as a part of the mantra or as that which I am goinng for when repeating the mantra. I will try this in my next couple of practices. And yes, we do make things too complicated. That is a bad habit of min in general.
Best regards,
Dairwolf
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Christi
United Kingdom
4518 Posts |
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Blanche
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2021 : 1:39:20 PM
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Hi Dairwolf,
One small observation: With practice, the mantra will start by itself repeating back-to-back, and refining into a stream of vibrations. It is like a river in which the water naturally flows into one channel, without gaps.
Enjoy the journey! |
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Dairwolf
Germany
7 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2021 : 3:14:38 PM
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Dear Christi, thank you again for your recommendations. I will look them up. I am glad I found this forum. Seems like there is a ton of useful information here.
Dear Blanche, I haven´t tried it that way yet. Do you mean that you initialize the thinking of the mantra and then the mantra kind of develops a "life on it´s own" that takes you to deeper levels of the mind?
Best regards,
Dairwolf |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2021 : 05:18:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Hi Dairwolf,
One small observation: With practice, the mantra will start by itself repeating back-to-back, and refining into a stream of vibrations. It is like a river in which the water naturally flows into one channel, without gaps.
Enjoy the journey!
Dear Dairwolf,
This is the best information to retain so that you do not fall into information overload and over-analysing
Sey
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2022 : 3:05:59 PM
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Christi and Sey,
Yogani once gave a brief audio demonstration of how the mantra should be said. I found it very helpful in knowing what the instruction intends to accomplish. I did not see a clear reference to that little snippet of sound , and I have not been able to find it quickly. If Iyou or another very experienced person can find it in the Canon, I think it might help Dairwolf as a supplement to all the analysis he has done and instruction he has received.
I understand this discussion might no longer be in the front of his mind, but if the Yogani brief example has not been given, I think it should be done. That small bit of information was very helpful for me. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4518 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2022 : 4:20:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Hi Dairwolf,
One small observation: With practice, the mantra will start by itself repeating back-to-back, and refining into a stream of vibrations. It is like a river in which the water naturally flows into one channel, without gaps.
Enjoy the journey!
Dear Dairwolf,
This is the best information to retain so that you do not fall into information overload and over-analysing
Sey
Hi Sey, Blanche and all,
That is one way in which the repetition of the mantra can evolve. Another way in which it can evolve is that we repeat the mantra, and then become absorbed in silence. Then, some time later, we notice that we are absorbed in silence and are off the mantra, and we come back to the mantra. Then again, we may become absorbed in silence, and again come back to the mantra, when we realise we are off it, and so on. During one session, we may only pick up the mantra a few times, or possibly, only once.
The important thing is that there is no set rhythm or pattern of repetition being given to the mantra. We are simply allowing what happens, to happen.
quote:
Originally posted by kensbikes100
Christi and Sey,
Yogani once gave a brief audio demonstration of how the mantra should be said. I found it very helpful in knowing what the instruction intends to accomplish. I did not see a clear reference to that little snippet of sound , and I have not been able to find it quickly. If Iyou or another very experienced person can find it in the Canon, I think it might help Dairwolf as a supplement to all the analysis he has done and instruction he has received.
I understand this discussion might no longer be in the front of his mind, but if the Yogani brief example has not been given, I think it should be done. That small bit of information was very helpful for me.
Hi Kensbikes,
The audio for the AYAM mantra can be found in lesson 13. It is here.
Christi |
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How to think that which is between two mantras
