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Cato
Germany
224 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 06 2021 : 11:26:11 AM
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During the last weeks I experimented with breathing meditation, based on lesson 367. I switched from 5 min SBP, 15 min (mantra) DM to 20 min of breathing meditation with no SBP. The results are wonderful, I feel much more calm and tolerant during the day, the meditation itself also feels somehow calmer. However, the lessons seem to stress an importance on mantra meditation as it has its vibrational qualities (which are lacking in breathing meditation). Several lessons build up gradual mantra enhancements to further utilize those vibrational qualities. I am not sure to what extent the (late) lesson 347 incorporates some additional practical knowledge from practitioners regarding over-sesitivity that has not been present in this form in the early lessons. An over-sesitive practitioner in Lesson 219 is still advised to cut back on (mantra) meditation time.
I wonder what should be my long-term goal here. Is it fine to stick to breathing meditation (perhaps indefinitely) or should one strive to come back to mantra meditation sooner or later? |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2021 : 1:39:17 PM
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Hello Cato
the long term goal is to keep a practice that suits your need and makes you feel at ease.Many have switched to breath meditation indefinitely. There is no requirement to be eager to get back to mantra meditation.
Based on your previous posts, i suggest you stay with breath meditation for few months .Do not put long term goals. You intuition will tell you what you need to do.And if not, you can discuss it in the forums like we did when many gave you advices to self pace.
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Dogboy
USA
2192 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2021 : 2:17:04 PM
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quote:
The results are wonderful, I feel much more calm and tolerant during the day, the meditation itself also feels somehow calmer.
You shouldn’t fix it if it’s not broken  As Maheswari points out, a time will arise when your being wants more, and you can flirt with AYAM then. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2021 : 2:37:16 PM
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Hi Cato,
Yes, the advice given in AYP for people who are experiencing energetic overload is to first of all cut back on any powerful energetic practices that are being used. This would include things like yoni mudra kumbhaka, spinal bastrika, mudras, bandhas, siddhasana, etc. These can be cut back one at a time, cutting back first on the one that was added most recently, and then the next if necessary, and so on. Then if energetic overload is still experienced after cutting back on all additional practices, then it would be a question of cutting back on the timings of practices such as Deep Meditation and Spinal Breathing and adding in a longer rest period after deep meditation. Along with this (any level of self-pacing), adding grounding practices is very important. So, switching to using the breath as a meditation object is not the first recommendation, or even the second, or third. But if it is necessary, then it is certainly an option.
If breathing meditation is working well for you, then it is fine to stick with it indefinitely as Maheswari suggests. There is no rush and the advice given in lesson 367, is to stay with breathing meditation for at least 6 months. See here:
"So we will be wise to start off modestly. If we have found it necessary to self-pace ourselves down to 5 minutes per session with mantra meditation (short or long mantra), we should consider starting there with breath meditation, and increasing our time gradually, a few minutes at a time over multiple sessions. That is if we find that we are stable using breath as our object of meditation. If we get all the way up to 20 minutes per session without any serious disruption, it is suggested to stay at that duration of meditation for at least six months, and perhaps indefinitely." [Yogani]
Of course, there are benefits to mantra meditation which are not found in breathing meditation, so there is an advantage to gradually building back up towards mantra meditation, once you have found a stable base. The vibrational effects of the mantra are not there when using the breath and there is no possibility to make use of the mantra enhancements.
See here from lesson addition 367.8:
Addition 367.8 - Breath Meditation Slowing Overload Down. Now what?
"It should be pointed out that breath meditation is working to slow down your recurring periods of overload, or you would not be concerned about slowing down as much as you feel you have. This is a good thing, right? In the weeks ahead, if you continue to feel you are slowing down too much, then think about gradually scaling up the time of your current breath meditation practice. If that remains stable, then perhaps consider going back to short deep meditation sessions with mantra (10 minutes or so). If sensitivity returns, then come back to breath meditation again. Like that. These are some of the nuances of self-pacing, finding the level of practice that will bring us good forward progress with comfort and safety." [Yogani]
See also lesson addition 367.10:
Addition 367.10 - A Case of Well-Managed Over-Sensitivity to Deep Meditation with Mantra
And yes, options for using the breath as a meditation object and the option of using the passive awareness technique were added in response to feedback from practitioners.
Christi
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2021 : 01:43:11 AM
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Hello Dogboy
Just to make my words clear for Cato.The time will come w when he will know whether he wants to stay with breath meditation or try mantra again.Cato might perfectly choose to stay with breath meditation and feel there is no need for more.Or not.Time will tell.But both options are equally good.Noting that for most practitioners i personally know, less is more.
Good luck Cato I am glad you chose this wise change in your path |
Edited by - maheswari on Jan 07 2021 01:44:43 AM |
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Dogboy
USA
2192 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2021 : 11:46:24 AM
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Hello Maheswari agree completely my friend  |
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Cato
Germany
224 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2021 : 05:38:44 AM
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Hi everybody and thanks for your input. A little confusion remains. On the one hand, it is pointed out, that there is no need to come back to the mantra one day, on the other hand, its vibrational qualities are stressed and the advantage of gradually building back up towards mantra meditation.
I'd like to give you my current understanding on this, starting with a quote from BlueRaincoat from elsewhere, that was quite helpful to me:
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
I'll illustrate with my example. I'm sensitive to practices. I wouldn't even dream of touching kechari. Yet things are happening in the energy channels where kechari operates. For a couple of months, my tongue looked as if it were scalded. There is a flow of energy there as if I physically made the tongue-to-roof-of-the-mouth connection. It might also help you if I told you that the most advanced practice in the AYP book that I reached is siddhasana, and even that practiced sporadically. This has not stopped me reaching the stage of unity. I'm saying all this to take the pressure off you and reassure you that you can progress fast by working within your level of sensitivity.
It took me some time to realize that first I am sensitive to practices and second that being sensitive to practices is not a bad thing.
Being sensitive to practices does neither indicate backlog nor progress or the ability for progressing. Doing certain practices is not a measure since there is no such thing as an absolute scale. One might (due to being sensitive) work with breath meditation and samyama, the other one with the full range of practices and both yield the same results. Naturally yogani covers the full range of practices in his works as everyones needs have to be met. But due to the range of sensitivities in all these beautiful nervous systems, one might work with a few gentle practices, another one with a couple of more agressive practices and both reach liberation equally fast. Is that view correct? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2021 : 05:51:49 AM
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Hi Cato,
Yes, that view is correct. Someone who is more sensitive to spiritual energy (prana), can do less to achieve the same level of spiritual purification. It is also good to remember that sensitivity is not a fixed thing and will change for each practitioner over time. Someone may be very sensitive at a certain stage, but much less sensitive later on. So, at a later date, they may be able to take on more, and may even need to take on more, if they want to maintain the same level of progress.
That is why the advice is given as it is regarding breathing meditation and mantra meditation. If someone were to need to use the breath as a meditation object, then they can use that for as long as they want. But sensitivity is not static and there may come a time when they are drawn to, and quite able to use the mantra again. If that is the case, using the mantra would be preferable, because using a mantra as a meditation object has advantages that using the breath does not have. Hence the advice given in lesson addition 367.8.
Christi |
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Cato
Germany
224 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2021 : 07:44:09 AM
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Christi, thanks for the clarification.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
using a mantra as a meditation object has advantages that using the breath does not have.
The term "advantage" might be misleading here. As you confirmed, to reach the same level of progress, breath meditation is equally useful as mantra meditation - depending on the meditator. So in this context, "advantage" means just being more useful to less sensitive meditators. It is the same advantage kechari stage 1 has compared to kechari stage 2, right? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2021 : 08:09:39 AM
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Hi Cato,
Yes, that is right. All other things being equal, mantra meditation has certain advantages over breath meditation, which is why mantra meditation is a baseline practice in AYP and breath meditation is not. But for very sensitive practitioners, breath meditation has the advantage that it is more gentle, and so can be practiced in situations where using a mantra would cause too much purification to happen too fast.
And yes, it is the same with kechari mudra. Kechari stage 2 has certain advantages over kechari stage 1, which is why people often work towards attaining it, but that does not mean that we would always choose it. Someone who is very sensitive to spiritual energy, may make faster progress by not using kechari mudra at all, because it could be overstimulating in the same way that a mantra could be for very sensitive practitioners.
So, self-pacing is a subtle art where we can be moving in either direction (less practice or more practice), depending on the situation. The same goes for grounding practices, where we may need to engage in more at times and less at other times, depending on the need. The right level of practice depends on the practitioner at that moment in their practice.
Christi |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2021 : 5:33:56 PM
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HI Cato
If I'm reading your question correctly, you are wondering if the mantra does something that cannot be achieved by any other means. If this is what you are asking, then I would say the answer is 'no'. Mantra meditation is a very effective practice, but it is not indispensable.
You can relax and enjoy breath meditation.
Let us know how you get on.
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Cato
Germany
224 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2021 : 04:59:31 AM
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TaiPi
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2021 : 08:06:46 AM
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| This topic is very enlightening. |
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Cato
Germany
224 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2021 : 3:33:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cato
I switched from 5 min SBP, 15 min (mantra) DM to 20 min of breathing meditation with no SBP. The results are wonderful, I feel much more calm and tolerant during the day.
I guess this might have been a little too premature as the given routine still leaves me irritable occasionally. I decided to stop practices alltogether and see what happens. Might be this irritability is not correlated to practices at all but I'll never know if I don't try. Time will tell. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2021 : 03:45:47 AM
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Hello Cato
I admire your courage to stop practices.Yes take a break and let it all settle down.The irritability is related to practices, it will slowly fade away.In the end the real spirituality is out there in ordinary life , so your decision of stopping practices does not mean that you are no longer on the path. You are and you are engaged in daily activities, that is practice too.
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Edited by - maheswari on Jan 18 2021 03:46:36 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2021 : 3:44:02 PM
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quote:
I guess this might have been a little too premature as the given routine still leaves me irritable occasionally. I decided to stop practices alltogether and see what happens. Might be this irritability is not correlated to practices at all but I'll never know if I don't try. Time will tell.
Hi Cato,
The general advice given in AYP with regards to self-pacing is to reduce practice times until we find a stable level of practice. So, in your case it could mean reducing your practice to 15 minutes of meditation, or less if that does not bring stability. Then, when you find a stable level of practice, you can gradually begin to build back up from there. This is generally preferable to a stop-start approach, which can bring greater instability over the long term. Be sure to take plenty of rest after each sitting as well, as this can help with irritability issues.
You can also reduce the number of sessions each day to one, instead of two, if necessary, as this can help with self-pacing. See this lesson addition:
Addition 367.2 - For Sensitivity, Meditating Once Per Day?
See also lesson addition 367.9:
Addition 367.9 - Self-Pacing with Fewer Meditation Sessions per Day or Week
"Shorter sessions might be tried first to see if that helps. If fewer routines per day or week work best for you, then try that. We can't go any faster than what is smooth and able to be integrated in our daily activity. Yes, that is part of self-pacing also. Progress will be optimal with a comfortable routine, whatever that may be for you. Excessive purification leading to no practice at all will be the least progressive, so do self-pace session length and/or number of sessions per day or week according to your need. You will find a balance that works for you." [Yogani]
Make sure to be doing grounding practices every day, as described in lesson 69.
Christi |
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Cato
Germany
224 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2021 : 05:43:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The general advice given in AYP with regards to self-pacing is to reduce practice times until we find a stable level of practice. So, in your case it could mean reducing your practice to 15 minutes of meditation, or less if that does not bring stability. Then, when you find a stable level of practice, you can gradually begin to build back up from there. This is generally preferable to a stop-start approach, which can bring greater instability over the long term. Be sure to take plenty of rest after each sitting as well, as this can help with irritability issues.
My rest period is always 10 minutes. I cut back practices step by step. First, I left YMK, then the different mudras and bandhas. I cut back DM from 20 to 15 minutes, my last step was to switch from mantra to breathing meditation. I experienced that I should wait a certain amount of time to assure the effects of the changes: As described, I first noticed a positive change when switching to breathing meditation but again experienced irritability after some time. Now I would like to know how things are going with no practices at all. As a baseline, ideally for some weeks. From there, I would like to restart step by step.
Btw. I do not have access to AYP plus and those additions are not included in Volume 2 of Ecstatic Living, so your pasted texts are quite helpful. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2021 : 09:21:44 AM
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| Taking a break seems like a good idea. At the end of it, if breath meditation still leads to irritability, there is always passive awareness meditation to try. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2021 : 11:21:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cato
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The general advice given in AYP with regards to self-pacing is to reduce practice times until we find a stable level of practice. So, in your case it could mean reducing your practice to 15 minutes of meditation, or less if that does not bring stability. Then, when you find a stable level of practice, you can gradually begin to build back up from there. This is generally preferable to a stop-start approach, which can bring greater instability over the long term. Be sure to take plenty of rest after each sitting as well, as this can help with irritability issues.
My rest period is always 10 minutes. I cut back practices step by step. First, I left YMK, then the different mudras and bandhas. I cut back DM from 20 to 15 minutes, my last step was to switch from mantra to breathing meditation. I experienced that I should wait a certain amount of time to assure the effects of the changes: As described, I first noticed a positive change when switching to breathing meditation but again experienced irritability after some time. Now I would like to know how things are going with no practices at all. As a baseline, ideally for some weeks. From there, I would like to restart step by step.
Btw. I do not have access to AYP plus and those additions are not included in Volume 2 of Ecstatic Living, so your pasted texts are quite helpful.
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Presence Light
Algeria
26 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2021 : 6:00:58 PM
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Breathing meditation
