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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 09:47:20 AM
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Chiron said:
And Christianity is in agreement with his words:
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"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9
Chiron, I'm not a Christian myself, and don't look at the Bible as a specially-authorized word of god. But I can say that for sure, it in 2007, 'Christianity is in agreement with him' is questionable either in meaning or correctness or both.
I would like to have something clarified here, because I am not sure what you are saying. The way you put that allows you to put forward an idea which is abhorrent to many, while you can possibly dodge responsibility for it yourself. Can you clarify what you mean to say? When you say "Christianity is in agreement with him", are you putting those ideas forward in order to give them support? I mean, on the face of it, he's calling homosexuals 'rotten seeds', you are saying Christianity is in agreement with him, and quoting from some unknown tribal middle-eastern preacher/writer of a few thousand years ago who says that God says that people should put to death for homosexual practices. Again, to what extent are you supporting these ideas and putting them forward yourself?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 10 2007 10:28:54 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 10:47:59 AM
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VIL, welcome back to the forum! I'm glad that is one of the briefest departures on record! Doc, glad to be able to help, or should I say, participate!  Regards to all.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 11:34:10 AM
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LOL. Thanks, david, glad to be back. Although I was gone for only a couple of hours, it felt like an eternity. LOL:
VIL |
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Philip
45 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 12:01:04 PM
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There has been a misquote:
1 Corinthians 6:9, which is written by Paul, actually is:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul also stated in Romans 1:26-27:
Because of this cause, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Whether or not these statements are in agreement with statements made by Samael Aun Weor is up to the judgment of the reader.
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " - Matthew 13 |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 3:40:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Chiron said:
And Christianity is in agreement with his words:
...
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9
Chiron, I'm not a Christian myself, and don't look at the Bible as a specially-authorized word of god. But I can say that for sure, it in 2007, 'Christianity is in agreement with him' is questionable either in meaning or correctness or both.
I would like to have something clarified here, because I am not sure what you are saying. The way you put that allows you to put forward an idea which is abhorrent to many, while you can possibly dodge responsibility for it yourself. Can you clarify what you mean to say? When you say "Christianity is in agreement with him", are you putting those ideas forward in order to give them support? I mean, on the face of it, he's calling homosexuals 'rotten seeds', you are saying Christianity is in agreement with him, and quoting from some unknown tribal middle-eastern preacher/writer of a few thousand years ago who says that God says that people should put to death for homosexual practices. Again, to what extent are you supporting these ideas and putting them forward yourself?
In this thread we are discussing the Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christianity. That is why I am quoting the Bible. To me, the Bible = Christianity. It is not a source of authority for me either, for my heart is the authority on these subjects. The Bible is a tool for confirmation.
Oh, and don't worry David, everyone will be put to death sooner or later.. it is how people handle their death is what will be the difference. I see you are still picking on irrelevant points.. |
Edited by - Chiron on Jan 10 2007 3:54:56 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 3:55:53 PM
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No dodging now, Chiron, "put to death" means executed. It does not mean "die", so it does not happen to all of us. "Shall" has a meaning more like "Should" here; in fact, many translations say "should" because it is closer to modern English. That is what that unknown middle-eastern preacher wrote. He is declaring that homosexuals should be killed for homosexual acts. And you are quoting him in support of Samael Aun Weor.
Now, are you supporting the claim that homosexuals are bad seeds or are you not? Because you seem to be. And where are you on the claim that they should be executed? Because you seem to be.
Please take responsibility for exactly what you mean to say. Remember: you are responsible for what you say God says. I'm not just picking on you here: clarity on this matter is of great importance. No more dodging please.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 10 2007 4:56:14 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 4:12:55 PM
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 4:25:45 PM
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Namaste Philip:
I think that the statements of Samael Aun Weor are in agreement with the Holy Scriptures insofar as disapproval and condemnation of homosexuality is concerned, but apparently for different reasons.
Weor's stated reason is that homosexual relations are not capable of spiritually fecundating....i.e.'impregnating' or 'fertilizing'....their 'Solar Bodies', if I read that correctly.
The reason in the Holy Scriptures is directly related to observation of the physical design and function of the sex organs in both genders, as well as observation of the apparent purpose of sexual attractions and sexual union of male and female, as witnessed in the vast majority of living species on this planet...i.e. propagation of the species. As such, this perspective has always been viewed by most people in every culture as the 'natural' norm throughout the history of humanity.
Were this not the case, none of us would even be here to discuss the issue, had we not been blessed with parents whose sexual activity led to a pregnancy which culminated in our live births. This has appeared to be pretty straight forward and obvious to most folks, particularly prior to the advent of 'free love' during the 'sexual revolution' of the 1960's, and the subsequently widespread use of 'birth control' measures and abortions to deal with unwanted pregnancies.
Since then, men and women have enjoyed much greater freedom to engage in sexual activity without as much risk of pregnancy. Thus, sex solely for the sake of the physical pleasure it entails, via every conceivable variety of sexual expression and practice, including homosexuality, has generally become much more openly accepted by society at large. This was NOT an option for most people anywhere prior to the past 50 years, when regular sexual activity most often eventually resulted in a pregnancy, as apparently intended by Nature. As the father of five children myself, I can attest to this truth from my own personal experience! 
Aside from the seemingly obvious biological factors, however, the Scriptures also insist on the Sacredness of the Body by stating...."He who unites himself with the Lord becomes One with Him in Spirit. Do you not know that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit Who dwells within you, which you have from God, and thus you are not your own? Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, because they belong to God." 1 Cor.6:17,19,20
I pass no personal judgement on anyone here regarding their personal sexual preferences....that's between you and God to work out....but am merely offering the traditional Christian perspective regarding this topic. 
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Jan 11 2007 12:35:07 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 4:45:45 PM
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It's quite understandable that before the age of contraception, prohibitions on sexual behavior were severe; it's also therefore natural that those prohibitions generalized to any kind of sexual relations, since societal mores are not always entirely rational. And it is one thing to discuss scriptural meanings and spiritual teachings. But it is quite another thing to be willing to come across in support of a characterization of homosexuals as "bad seeds".... Well, I have said what I need to say and time for me to move on, I think.
Now, where were we --- oh yes, back to the Magical Mystery Tour! I am indebted to Doc for that reference too, which I have chased down, and found some verse from some not-so-ancient bards, wherein there is an important message for us all. Pay particular attention to the phrases which I have underlined:
Here we go....
Magical Mystery Tour (Lennon/McCartney)
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up AND THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is waiting to take you away,
Waiting to take you away.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up WE'VE GOT EVERYTHING YOU NEED, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up SATISFACTION GUARANTEED, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is hoping to take you away,
Hoping to take you away.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up AND THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is coming to take you away,
Coming to take you away.
The magical mystery tour is dying to take you away,
Dying to take you away, take you away.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 11 2007 10:55:24 AM |
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Philip
45 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 6:04:22 PM
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Doc,
quote:
Aside from the seemingly obvious biological factors, however, the Scriptures also insist on the Sacredness of the Body by stating...."He who unites himself with the Lord becomes One with Him in Spirit. Do you not know that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit Who dwells within you, which you have from God, and thus you are not your own? Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, because they belong to God." 1 Cor.6:17,19,20
Yes, let us combine that with the following:
28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. - Mark 3:28-29
When a sin is not forgiven, then it is a debt that repaid to the "jot" with suffering.
The word "fecundating" is used to describe the process of being "born again" of the "water" (sexuality) and the (Holy) Spirit.
The solar bodies are the soul, but divided into the vehicles of thought, emotion, and will.
The final reason is that only the Law of Three can create: Phallus + Uterus + Holy Spirit (sex). This is the Positive, Negative, and Neutral forces. This is the Proton, Electron, and Neutron. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 9:57:33 PM
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""You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "
I really have my doubts about Leviticus. In my eyes, it is the one book that I don't
believe should be in the bible. Is it really in tune with the teaching of Jesus?
Below is a bunch of other stuff from Leviticus. All of this is supposedly spoken
by god through Moses. Do modern christians practice these things? most will tell
you it was only for Moses' people, or the old testament was laid aside in favor
of jesus' teachings in the new testament.
well, then the statement about homosexuality must also be put aside.
Otherwise, we had better practice the following.
It's all in leviticus:
(this is a numbered list; it's not the verse numbers)
1) offer a bull, or better yet, a herd of cattle to the lord, and especially a burnt sacrifice.
2) sprinkle the cow's blood around the altar.
3) kill a sheep or goat at the altar.
4) wash the intestines and legs, and burn them on the altar
5) or twist off a pidgeon's head and pour the blood by the altar
6) god likes salt on his meat offerings
7) god doesn't like the kidneys or kidney fat.
8) the fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out
9) everyone who touches the burnt offerings is holy, but favor the males.
10) if any of the blood gets on your clothes, you have to wash them in the church.
11) if ANY of the flesh of peace offerings is eaten on the third day it is an abomination
12) if you eat any of the meat designated for god, you will be banished
13) if you eat blood, you will be banished
14) the lord commanded Moses to bring out Aaron's son's, and put coats, girdles,
and bonnets on them (LOL)
15) but then Moses splattered blood and oil on their clothes.
16) it is an abomination to eat seafood without scales or fins, but you can eat
locusts, beetles and grasshoppers.
17) a male baby makes the mom unclean for a week, then he must be circumsized,
but a baby girl makes her unclean for two weeks.
18) if you have a scab or boil, you should have a priest check for leprosy.
If the priest decides you have leprosy, they tear your clothes off, cover
your upper lip, and cry "unclean, unclean."
19) if a leper looks like he is healing, there is a bunch of rituals you can perform
involving lots of animal blood and a priest that will make him clean.
20) a woman who has menstruation is unclean, but can stay away from
everyone for a week, and keep washing everything, and have the priest
sacrifice a couple birds, and she will be clean.
21) it's OK to own slaves, as long as they are not from your own country.
22) No blind or lame man may approach the altar, or anyone with a broken
foot or hand, or a flat nose, or a scab or blemish on his eye, or a dwarf.
23) if a priest's daughter is a whore, we should burn her.
24) a farmer shouldn't plant two kinds of seed in the same field
25) men shouldn't trim their hair or beards.
26) we shouldn't wear clothes made of two kinds of fiber. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jan 10 2007 10:04:24 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 02:10:20 AM
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Hi everyone:
quote:
And I say unto you: Look not to the scriptures, for the scriptures are dead. In everything that hath life is the law written. In the birds of the air, in the fishes of the sea, in the trees, in the hills and the rivers...
Jesus Christ (from the Gospel of peace of Jesus Christ found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.)
Christi |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 03:51:51 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Philip[/i:
"....only the Law of Three can create: Phallus + Uterus + Holy Spirit (sex). This is the Positive, Negative, and Neutral forces. This is the Proton, Electron, and Neutron."
We part ways here again, Philip, with Samael Weor's gnostic interpretation of the 'Law of Three', particularly in his assignment of sexual interpretations as the primary meaning of this Law. In particular, to reduce the Holy Spirit to nothing more than sexual energy and carnal activity is especially offensive to Traditional Christianity. It would be considered blasphemously disrespectful and irreverent towards God for most Christians. I tell you this only for the remote possibility that you don't already realize this, so that you might better understand why such teachings have met with so much resistance and negative reaction from the disapproving Christian majority. 
The Eastern Orthodox Esoteric Christian Tradition of Apostolic Succession teaches the 'Cosmic Law of Three' to represent 'Space', 'Time', and 'Equilibrium', respectively. According to this Esoteric Tradition, the 'Cosmic Law of Three' states the observation that everything which exists in the created Universe, exists as a result of the simultaneous, converging action of 'Three Universal Forces' on the same point at the same time. These Three Forces are namely: 1) the Passive/Static Force of Space; 2) the Active/Dynamic Force of Time; and 3) the Neutral/Balancing Force of Equilibrium.
It is therefore believed that everything which is created through the Divine Providence of God's Holy Will and Sacred Presence in the Universe reflects the 'Cosmic Law of Three'. The ideas and inventions of human creation, however, often reflect an absence of energetic harmony among these Three Universal Forces by comparison.
Using the example of sex from this discussion, females of most species provide eggs which may be potentially fertilized by males, along with attractive physical qualities, and perhaps seductive behaviors, which essentially represent the Passive/Static Force of Creation awaiting response from males.
Males provide the fertilizing seeds or semen, which have no creative potential unless united with a female egg, and in most species, males normally respond to the attracting physical qualities and seductive behaviors of females by pursuing them with their Active/Dynamic Force of Creation.
The expression of Mutual Physical Attraction through Sexual Union of a Male and a Female represents the Neutral/Balancing Force of Equilibrium in the Divine Plan of Creation. For humans especially, this also ideally includes a continuation of the mutually attracting factors in an ongoing sexual relationship, accompanied by the expression of mutual emotional love for one another. This natural bond between the sexes helps to create and maintain the long term relationship needed to cooperatively nourish, support, educate, and otherwise provide for the needs of their children. 
To understand the Eastern Orthodox Christian perspective on homosexuality, it helps tremendously to realize that all of the first Christians, with the sole exception of the initial Jewish Apostles and Disciples of Jesus, were Pagan Gentile converts to Christianity. As such, they came from Eastern cultures and societies in which homosexuality was quite prevalent, and frequently encountered. It was well known, therefore, that homosexual preferences did not necessarily indicate, per se, that such individuals were 'bad' or 'evil' anymore than anyone else. It was acknowledged that a person's intentions in pursuing sexual activity of any kind determined their moral and ethical nature regarding their sexuality.
Thus, it is understood that homosexual relationships based on the same factors of ongoing mutual attraction and emotional love, and continuing mutual support mentioned earlier, might well be established and maintained with Balance and Equilibrium in the same way as a heterosexual relationship, but simply lack the procreative potential intended for sexual unions of males with females. As such, homosexual relationships are not considered the intended norm since they do not contribute to the propagation of the species. Thus, homosexuality is merely viewed as incomplete in purpose, and as lacking natural synchronicity with the majority of the species.
Homosexual activity is generally only viewed as morally wrong or 'evil' by Orthodox Christianity in cases of non-consentual, forced participation, such as same gender sexual assaults, just like non-consentual opposite sex rapes. In both instances, usually no bond of love is present, mutual attraction is absent, and the motivating intention and outcome is always negative. 
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Jan 11 2007 06:02:29 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 07:20:53 AM
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I agree with most of this, but am wondering about this:
"Using the example of sex from this discussion, females of most species provide eggs which may be potentially fertilized by males, along with attractive physical qualities, and perhaps seductive behaviors, which essentially represent the Passive/Static Force of Creation awaiting response from males.
In this topic;
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1820
we talk about immaculate conception. I mentioned that over 70 species of reptiles are capable of parthenogenesis, or having babies without any male participation. So would this imply that these reptiles are some sort of abomination, or maybe the three forces only apply to humans? Or is the knowledge about three forces something that is changing as an increasing number of species that can reproduce unilaterally is discovered? |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jan 11 2007 07:52:14 AM |
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Philip
45 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 09:53:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Philip[/i:
"....only the Law of Three can create: Phallus + Uterus + Holy Spirit (sex). This is the Positive, Negative, and Neutral forces. This is the Proton, Electron, and Neutron."
We part ways here again, Philip, with Samael Weor's gnostic interpretation of the 'Law of Three', particularly in his assignment of sexual interpretations as the primary meaning of this Law. In particular, to reduce the Holy Spirit to nothing more than sexual energy and carnal activity is especially offensive to Traditional Christianity. It would be considered blasphemously disrespectful and irreverent towards God for most Christians. I tell you this only for the remote possibility that you don't already realize this, so that you might better understand why such teachings have met with so much resistance and negative reaction from the disapproving Christian majority.
Well, there is no doubt that we do indeed part ways, yet let me clarify a little bit for those interested.
The primary meaning of the Law of Three would not necessarily be "sexual;" within the relationship between a man and a woman, it is though. It is simply the archetypal active, passive and neutral. In physics, this is centripetal, centrifugal, and the balance between them.
It is necessary to understand what I mean by "sex" and "sexuality" in relationship to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what impregnates the Virgin Mother, so here we must understand that there is a connection between sex and the Holy Spirit. In no way, however, does the Holy Spirit have anything to do with: orgasm, lust, masturbation, adultery, pornography, or any other carnal activity. The Holy Spirit, does, on the other had have to do with: love, chastity, scantity, purity, immaculate conception, etc.
This means that the "normal" understanding (and action) of the intercourse has nothing directly to do with the Holy Spirit.
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
In the Kabbalah, the name of God for Binah is Jehovah Elohim. This is the name of God mainly used in Genesis. The other name used is Ruach Elohim, which means "Spirit of God." Binah is the third principle of the uppermost triangle on the Otz Chiim (Tree of Life), which corresponds to the third aspect of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.
When we read Genesis it is important to understand that it is the Spirit of God (Ruach Elohim) that hovers over the face of the waters, not simply God (Elohim).
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
So, here we have Spirit of God in relationship to the Water, just like the Holy Spirit has a direct relationship with the Water. The Spirit of God has within it the seed of all creation, thus it is the "Spirit of God" that impregnates the Waters of Genesis.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually disconcerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14
Why is the natural man not able to receive the Spirit of God? Because he fornicates (orgasm) the sexual energy, which is physical, biological manifestation of the Creative Potential of God, the Ruach, the Spirit, so instead of creating a spiritual nature within, the Heavenly Man, it goes out, and creates children of the original sin, which is the orgasm.
The orgasm is the eating of the Fruit that Jehovah Elohim (Holy Spirit) said not to. The fruit of man is his sexual energy. God said be fruitful and multiply, not Be unfruitful and multiply. You cannot be fruitful if you "eat" the "fruit"! There is no reason to reach orgasm, you can have children without the orgasm. One sperm can leave without wasting millions, if God chooses so.
Likewise, we can recount traditions across the world that state the semen is very important to preserve if one wishes to progress on a spiritual path. The best thing to do is to connect with a loving spouse, have intercourse, but stop before reaching the spasm. It is that simple, this way the Spirit of God hovers of the Waters inside the souls of the couple, instead of being expelled into Nature. There is nothing unclean about sex, what is unclean is the orgasm (fornication), and its children which are lust and adultery, which, in sum, is satan. The Eastern cultures talk about how giving birth is "unclean." This is because every birth has been from fornication. Yet, Buddha's birth is said to be clean, because the (interior) Buddha (tathagatagarba) is born through white tantrism, which has no orgasm. This is also why, according to the Old Testament, there are these "crazy" rules:
And if any man’s seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
– Leviticus 15: 16 - 18
Thus shall ye separate the children of Israel from the uncleanness; that they die not in their uncleanness, when they defile my tabernacle that is among them [through the orgasm, or spilling of semen].
– Leviticus 15:31
He that is wounded in the stones, or that his privy member cut off, shall not enter unto the congregation of Jehvoah Elohim.
– Deuteronomy 23:1
The NT says it like this:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
– 1 John 3:9
This is why Jesus stated that if you even look at another person with lust, you have already committed adultery. It is true. Because the only way that is possible, is if you have developed lust within you through the orgasm. Not just in this life but in any previous life lived. The orgasm is a creative act, but besides creating children of fornication, it creates within, which is satan, the anti-christ, the ego, the "Legion" that only Christ can remove, etc.
The Holy Matrimony is a TRI-mony between Man, Woman, and God. The true ritual of marriage is the sexual act itself, yet Paul states the following:
But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
Those that are married should be as those who are not married. Someone who is not married, according to exoteric tradition, should never reach orgasm. So, if you are married, perform the act of marriage (sex), but be as though you are not married, and refrain from the orgasm.
Paul also states that if you can be like him, which means to be already born again of the Holy Spirit, then you should not partake in the sexual act all. Because, if you are like him, then the Seven Days of "Creation" is already done within your soul, you should be not performing the creative act, you must restjust as Jehovah Elohim rests when the Creation is done. Yet, very, very, few people are truly "born again," so they should marry, and act as if they are not married. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 12:05:46 PM
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Hi Philip,
Great post. It is really interesting for me to read your posts as you obviously have a great deal of insight into the real meaning of many of the biblical texts. I have often studied these texts using the traditional Christian interpretations and explanations but have so often found them to be woefully lacking as I am sure so many others have.
I was wondering, what does it mean to be born again? You touched on this before, but I couldn't get it? Does it relate to the awakening of the Kundalini energy, and to the opening of the chakras? And what does it mean for the "seven days of creation" to be already done in a person? Does this also relate to the seven chakras, or the seven human bodies, or the seven realms of consciousness?
Christi |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 12:20:09 PM
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Philip said:
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
Gosh. One wonders why the writers of those old texts didn't refer to the orgasm? I mean, why did they say "fornicate" when they meant "have an orgasm"? Because the two mean two very different things. Lack of vocabulary at the time? No, they had words and phrases for orgasm, as pretty much every culture does. In fact, the writers of those old texts weren't in the least bit dainty or Victorian and were well able to call a spade a spade sexually.
I know! They didn't want to be clear on what they meant because if the mystery was taken away then we wouldn't have our Magical Mystery Tour! 
La la! The Magical Mystery Tour is coming to take you away! |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 11 2007 2:38:36 PM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 2:49:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
Hi Philip,
you keep posting quotes, and here you state that you are studying
esotericism and you keep stating things of which I am not
sure whether you completely identify with that teaching or if
you are just advertising that teaching.
So, I would be very glad if you could explain your own view
about orgasm.
Can orgasm in your viewpoint be an experienc of the divine ?
Any orgasm (with or without ejaculation) or no orgasm at all ?
Looking forward to your response
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 3:18:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish:
In this topic;
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1820
we talk about immaculate conception. I mentioned that over 70 species of reptiles are capable of parthenogenesis, or having babies without any male participation. So would this imply that these reptiles are some sort of abomination, or maybe the three forces only apply to humans? Or is the knowledge about three forces something that is changing as an increasing number of species that can reproduce unilaterally is discovered?
I neither stated any such implication of abomination, nor was one intended. The 'Cosmic Law of Three' and the 'Three Universal Forces' are applicable to all life forms, not only humans.
The examples of parthenogenesis found among some species of living creatures are viewed as a part of God's Divine Providence Plan for their survival strategy, based on the needs and resources of their environment, or perhaps based on other factors known only to God, whereby the Neutral/Balancing Force of Equilibrium is self-contained along with the Passive/Static Force of Creation and the Active/Dynamic Force of Creation, thus eliminating the need for a Union of Opposite Genders to procreate. This is also true of self-replicating plant species, and other life-forms ranging from microscopic organisms to advanced life-forms, which reproduce in a similar fashion.
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Jan 11 2007 7:15:17 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 3:54:12 PM
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Philip:
There is so much variance in the quoted teachings and writings of Samael Aun Weor from Traditional Jewish and Christian Theology that I can hardly decide what to address first. 
Perhaps a good starting point for now would be his/your use of the word 'fornicate'. The etymology of this word comes from the Latin Language word 'fornicari', meaning "the illicit sexual intercourse of unmarried partners". The Past Participle of this word is 'fornicatus', which indicates past commission of such an illicit sexual intercourse. The English words 'fornicate','fornication', and 'fornicator' are derived from this Latin word. It was NEVER used in reference to marital sexual intercourse, and still shouldn't be used in this way. Check your dictionary!
In Biblical times, due to the absence of an effective means to prevent pregnancy, 99.99% of all sexually active women were married, and enjoyed sexual intercourse ONLY with their husbands. In fact, during Biblical times in the Holy Land, a married woman who became pregnant by a man other than her husband, or a single woman who became pregnant before marriage, would have been stoned to death for their sexual impropriety. 
Women with multiple sexual partners were therefore generally 'working girls' or 'harlots'. Thus, the term 'fornication' was used in reference to the sexual intercourse of brothel prostitutes with their customers, to whom they were not married. The term 'fornicator' was therefore used in reference to both parties in such transactions. This is the meaning intended and understood in the Holy Scriptures. It is not used in reference to an 'orgasm' of any kind.
The Personal Divine Name with which God identified Himself to Moses on Mt. Horeb is 'Yahweh', Hebrew for 'I AM THAT I AM'. Over time, the Hebrews came to consider this Personal Name of God too sacred to speak casually, and even disrespectful to utter aside from the Solemn Liturgical Rites and Ceremonies of the Temple in Jerusalem. As a result, the more general term for 'God'...'Elohim'...was substituted instead for home prayer devotions and synagogue use.
Then Moses said to God, 'I am to go, then, to the sons of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you". But if they ask me what His name is, what am I to tell them?' And God said to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'. This is what you must say to the sons of Israel: "I AM has sent me". And God also said to Moses, 'You are to say to the sons of Israel: "Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent you". This is my name for all time; by this name I shall be invoked for all generations to come'. Exodus 3:13-15
The name 'Jehovah' is a corruption of the original 'Yahweh'. Such corruption came about when attempts to translate Hebrew words into other languages were undertaken. The written Hebrew words do not include the vowels, thus posing a problem with translating the Divine Name of 'YHWH'. German Biblical scholars substituted the letter 'J' for the 'Y' in order to duplicate the equivalent sound in the German Language, just as they did in translating the name 'Yeshu' into 'Jesu', which later became 'Jesus'. These scholars essentially only guessed at what the original and true form the the Divine Personal Name might be, and how it might be pronounced aloud with the proper vowels included, and eventually decided on 'Jehovah'.
The Ancient Hebrew term for the Spirit of God is 'Ruach ha-Kodesh', the 'Spirit of Holiness' or the 'Holy Spirit'. The earliest Jewish born Christians borrowed this traditional Hebrew term to directly and accurately refer to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity...the 'Holy Spirit'.
Perhaps I'll address other points in your posts later, but at this point I have begun to feel as if this thread is little more than an internet platform for the dissemination of 'The Gospel According to Samael', and I am growing very weary of it, so we'll see....!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Jan 11 2007 7:50:30 PM |
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Philip
45 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 8:20:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Philip,
Great post. It is really interesting for me to read your posts as you obviously have a great deal of insight into the real meaning of many of the biblical texts. I have often studied these texts using the traditional Christian interpretations and explanations but have so often found them to be woefully lacking as I am sure so many others have.
I was wondering, what does it mean to be born again? You touched on this before, but I couldn't get it? Does it relate to the awakening of the Kundalini energy, and to the opening of the chakras? And what does it mean for the "seven days of creation" to be already done in a person? Does this also relate to the seven chakras, or the seven human bodies, or the seven realms of consciousness?
Christi
Christianity talks about "being born again" (second birth) and the "second death." The first birth is the birth of the body. The second birth is the process of the complete development of the human soul. What we have within is a seed of a soul, the "Essence," mustard seed. But this essence-soul needs to develop into a true human soul. So, Jesus had many parables about the seed, because we are seeds. He also states, "in your patience you will possess your soul," which means that we really don't currently have a soul. In John 3 Jesus speaks about being born again. Jesus is amazed here, because Nicodemus, a Pharisee and thus a man who knew the Kabbalah, did not grasp the meaning of what Jesus was saying.
Being born again is a general term of spiritual development that only comes through sexual transmutation. Developing the solar bodies is part of that, developing all 7 brass serpents (kundalini) within the 7 bodies is a part of that, opening the chakras (the crown chakra, btw, is the halo depicted on saints, also the tongues of fire in Acts) is related with that. The seven days of genesis are a way to describe that process.
Basically, nothing returns to heaven except that which came from heaven. The semen, the sperm, the egg, the "sexual eneregy" come directly from God. The akasha (ether) comes from the Mulaprakriti. The tattvas come from the akasha, in four types: tejas, vayu, apas, and prithvi. These then transform into fire, aire, water, and earth. But chakras take in the tattvas and then pass into the interior of the glands of the internal secretion. When the tattvas are inside these minute endocrine laboratories (the glands), they then transform into hormones. These tattvas also transform into genes and chromosomes that later transform into sperm or egg. Everything comes from the Ether. So, what is necessary is to take these root substances and transform them in order to build vehicles of a nature that handle ever increasingly subtle forms of God. This is how we are literally born again of the spirit.
There is another story about a Wedding were a person showed up without be dressed correctly. The King bound him hand and foot and threw him out, where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." This, Jesus states, is what Heaven is like. We have to be properly dressed for Heaven, because the filth that we are could never "live" there. And if we do not make it to heaven, then we will go to hell, because we have to pay for what we owe, even if we don't want to. It is like a child that you discipline in order to teach him/her how to live better. A parent doesn't (shouldn't at least) ever be angry when he or she disciplines their child. They do it out of LOVE, in order to TEACH the child how to live correctly. Hell is compassion for those souls who refused to "clean" themselves of sin. Although they are there for eternity, that is another word that has caused confusion. Eternity is a cycle of events that eventually ends. It is AN eternity. The Law is the Law, and it will be fulfilled, but no more or less. Once the debt is paid, the punishment ends, because it serves no purpose. There is no purpose in making people suffer forever.
The Seven Days of Genesis describe the work necessary to achieve the Crown of Life, which is Christ: Kether-Chokmah-Binah. The first Five Days correspond to the development of the human soul, the first Five Initiations of Greater Mysteries that the Theosophists like to talk about so much. The Sixth Day corresponds to the incarnation of the Spiritual Soul, this is when the Master is born on Earth (the Master is born in the Heaven first... thus there is the two men; Natural (Terrestrial) Man and the Heavenly Man (the inner Master or Guru)). The Seventh Day is the Straight Path that we spoke about in one of the earlier posts. This last day itself is represented by the 12 works of Hercules, or the 13 Repentances of Pistis Sophia.
That is a basic outline, much can be said about all this things. |
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Philip
45 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 9:00:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
quote:
Originally posted by Philip
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
Hi Philip,
you keep posting quotes, and here you state that you are studying
esotericism and you keep stating things of which I am not
sure whether you completely identify with that teaching or if
you are just advertising that teaching.
So, I would be very glad if you could explain your own view
about orgasm.
Can orgasm in your viewpoint be an experienc of the divine ?
Any orgasm (with or without ejaculation) or no orgasm at all ?
Looking forward to your response
Yes, all of these things are my personal explanations concerning these topics, of course my understanding is based on the doctrine of Samael Aun Weor.
In my viewpoint, the orgasm is a filthy ("unclean") act that eventually transforms an innocent but awakened humanity into perverse, complicated, lustful, sarcastic, envious, hateful, ignorant, sleeping masses that suffer daily but do not even know it. And I will give you proof, if you want it. Simply go up to any person and ask if they suffer. The vast majority will say "no" with confidence. Then, begin to call them names, make fun of them, tell them that they are ignorant, perverse, hate filled, envious, proud, that they are fornicators and liars. Every one of them at this point will feel at least one the seven deadly sins because those sins live within them, even if they really, really, believe in God. Just observe people. They say they don't suffer, yet just watch them, observe them. Ten minutes later they are complaining (my boss is a tyrant, i don't get paid enough, people don't appreciate me), gossiping, yelling, they are afraid (about money, about test scores, about what people think, what do I do in life?), they are proud (of my wonderful family, of my beliefs, of my car, my job, my social status that gives me the power for this or that), they are making a joke at someone else's expense, etc., etc., etc., etc. And how do many escape? Through greed and lust, things that make them sleep even more: tv, movies, games, "hobbies", drinking, which only makes them suffer more.
We suffer and do not even comprehend that we suffer. We do not even know how to return evil with goodness. We can not even love our enemies. This is not normal. This is a shame, this humanity is a massive failure, which is why Jesus is actually very clear that few people will ever see Heaven. He states that with outstanding authority. When someone says, "You are great" we feel pride, and that is suffering. When someone says, "You are bad" we feel shame, or anger, or resentment, and that is suffering. The real man is not a slave to the world. The real man is happy unconditionally!
Fornication comes from the same word as furnace. Fornication is the creation of "fire" which burns in the furnace. Hell is full of fire. The orgasm is like pouring fuel on fire, even though it is intensely pleasurable to the biological organism. It's just dopamine. Someone who takes heroin or opium feels very similar to the person experiencing the orgasm. The true erotic agape is not the orgasm, it is the love between man and woman that is beyond lust, yet it is sexual. The orgasm as a mystical experience is a fleeting desire that has nothing to do with the ecstatic states achieved through white tantrism. Using the orgasm as a tool to awaken the consciousness works, yet it awakens the consciousness in DESIRE. This is how someone becomes a demon. No demon thinks he is a demon. The awakening of the consciousness properly performed occurs through the elimination of desire combined with sexual transmutation.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2
The point sexual of transmutation is to not waste the ENERGY. Meaning no orgasm, ejaculation, no LUST, no DESIRE. Lustful thought is fornication because one uses the subtle currents of the sexual energy to waste it on desire-will. Lust is an action that has consequences. This is why if you even THINK about sex in the wrong way, you have already fornicated.
The Sixth Commandment, properly stated, is: Thou Shalt Not Fornicate. The person who completes this commandment perfectly on all the levels of the mind, of the emotion, and the body has already incarnated Christ. This is how difficult it is. Those who fail at this become a triple failure of 6: six in the mind, six in the emotion, and six in the action: 666. This is the number of the Anti-Christ, which has the power of ubiquity because it lives everywhere, in everyone. Instead of manifesting christ, one manifest satan (ego), which is the son of fornication. |
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Philip
45 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 9:22:57 PM
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quote:
There is so much variance in the quoted teachings and writings of Samael Aun Weor from Traditional Jewish and Christian Theology that I can hardly decide what to address first.
Well, you don't have to address any of them for me. I don't mind. I understand that is growing old for you, but I don't mind. I will continue to speak until no one wants to talk any more. No one is forced to respond to anything I say.
quote:
It was NEVER used in reference to marital sexual intercourse, and still shouldn't be used in this way. Check your dictionary!
It does not matter if the people who wrote the dictionary did not know that there is an exoteric doctrine for the people (get married) and an esoteric doctrine (but don't reach orgasm) that is only taught to the people in secrecy. So what I am saying here is the esoteric viewpoint as I understand it.
quote:
The Personal Divine Name with which God identified Himself to Moses on Mt. Horeb is 'Yahweh', Hebrew for 'I AM THAT I AM'. Over time, the Hebrews came to consider this Personal Name of God too sacred to speak casually, and even disrespectful to utter aside from the Solemn Liturgical Rites and Ceremonies of the Temple in Jerusalem. As a result, the more general term for 'God'...'Elohim'...was substituted instead for home prayer devotions and synagogue use.
The name of God that Moshe (Moses) was given was "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" (#1488;#1492;#1497;#1492; #1488;#1513;#1512; #1488;#1492;#1497;#1492;) not IHVE. IHVE, while many think should be Yahweh, is really Jehovah, which I know is bad transliteration, but if you do not like that then just say IOD-HEVA, but not Yahweh, because Yahweh is a demon. "Yahweh" as the real way to pronounce God is one the tricks that some jealous rabbis use in order to confuse the gentiles. Sad, but true (this in no way should be taken as a stab at a religion, only that members of all regions have faults). IHVE is IOD, HE, Vav, He, which esoterically means: Phallus, Uterus, Fire, Water. This of course makes sense because Jehovah is a creator god. Moshe in Hebrew means "born of the fire and water:" MEM is Water, SHIN is Fire, He is WOMB.
quote:
The Ancient Hebrew term for the Spirit of God is 'Ruach ha-Kodesh', the 'Spirit of Holiness' or the 'Holy Spirit'. The earliest Jewish born Christians borrowed this traditional Hebrew term to directly and accurately refer to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity...the 'Holy Spirit'.
Ruach ha-Kadosh means Holy Spirit, but Spirit of God is Ruach Elohim. There is no confusion there!
quote:
Perhaps I'll address other points in your posts later, but at this point I have begun to feel as if this thread is little more than an internet platform for the dissemination of 'The Gospel According to Samael', and I am growing very weary of it, so we'll see....!
Perhaps that is the case, but it only because people keep talking to me! You can stop whenever whenever you want! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 10:03:42 PM
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Hey Philip, you haven't answered my question: presuming the writers of these old scrolls had the meaning you intended for "fornicate", namely "have an orgasm", why didn't they say "have an orgasm?".
And please, please, please don't give me that catch-it-all old line "the people weren't ready to hear it" because people were hearing much more shocking and strange stuff at those times.
And I don't want something like "people needed exoteric teachings also", because if you want to teach the people (i) not to fornicate and (ii) not to have orgasms, you simply teach the people (i) not to fornicate and (ii) not to have orgasms. There was room on the scroll for both, and you could always leave out some of the bulls-blood stuff in a pinch, if the scribe was getting cranky.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 11 2007 10:16:05 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2007 : 10:32:32 PM
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quote:
Philip said:
quote:
david_obsidian said:
So yes, one asks for proof. One is a fool not to.
There is plenty of proof to your awakened consciousness. Yet, the sleeping consciousness does not know its ass from its elbow, and this why there is so much confusion and suffering in this world. Yes, it is necessary to awaken to have proof, real objective proof. And, any individual who goes to bed at night and remains unconscious for the next eight hours, and even worse doesn't even remember his dreams (unconscious activity), sleeps profoundly. Anyone who cannot remember their past day in its total and complete entirety, down to each minute detail, is living with their consciousness sleeping. That is why this whole humanity is the living dead, and rightly so: "let the dead bury the dead," let them do what they want.
Pride is the overestimation of one's self worth and self knowledge. David, if what I stated regarding sleep fits you, then in reality, what you do have is an atom of data, a couple words, and with that you are building a monument based upon your theories, which, according to my own experience, have no bearing on truth.
Philip, I've had time to go back and look at one of your earlier replies to me. It's nothing other than intimidation, a cultic technique:
Philip said:
Anyone who cannot remember their past day in its total and complete entirety, down to each minute detail, is living with their consciousness sleeping. ...David, if what I stated regarding sleep fits you, then in reality, what you do have is an atom of data, a couple words, and with that you are building a monument based upon your theories....
It's crafted to make the reader lose faith in himself. And to contrast himself with the purported state of the cultic authority. I'm supposed to read that and think "holy sh1t, if I had an awakened consciousness, I'd be believing all this Samael Aun Weor stuff!". And so I'm supposed to be cowed away from making further challenges.
Philip, regarding your cultic intimidation, as you can imagine I'm quaking in my boots here.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 11 2007 10:44:11 PM |
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Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christianity
