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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 18 2018 : 11:43:18 AM
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I have a question for some of the more advanced practitioners here. Some, if not many, of the great Yoga master’s believe that vairagya must go hand in hand with meditation practise in order for moksha to occur. My own personal experience of having an awakening came at a time when I was practising self-denial, and following that initial awakening, I was doing some pretty extream self-denial and entered into a VERY spiritual time.
Here are two teachings by Ramana Maharshi on vairagya:
“Control of desire and meditation are interdependent. They must go on side by side. Abhyas and vairagya bring about the result. Vairagya is to check the mind being projected out; abhyas is to keep it turned inward.”
Q: Why is it that the mind cannot be turned inward in spite of repeated attempts?
A: “It is done by abhyas[practise] and vairagya[dispassion] and that succeeds only slowly. The mind having been so long used to go outwards, is not easily turned inwards.”
My question is does AYP share this view and, if so, what are thier teachings on self-denial?
Here is a link to an on line book on the subject for anyone interested: http://www.dlshq.org/download/vairagya.htm
The above two quotes are from “Conscious Immortality” by Paul Brunton.
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Edited by - Herb on Nov 18 2018 2:50:59 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2018 : 1:24:04 PM
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Hello Herb
quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Some, if not many, of the great Yoga master’s believe that vairagya must go hand in hand with meditation practise in order for moksha to occur.
AYP's stance is that meditation is the core spiritual practice. Any other practice needs to be grafted on a solid foundation of regular meditation in order to give positive results. In the absence of meditation, most other techniques will generally be either ineffective or backfire. I say "generally" because there are exceptions. Some people do start on a spiritual path by doing a different practice, then add meditation later.
What is AYP view of self-denial?
AYP does not include self-denial in its system of practices.
That is because there are plenty of powerful practices that can be sustained without risking internal conflict. I understand self-denial worked for you, but many people would be unwilling to sustain the hardship. It could easily backfire, storing internal tensions and actually creating more cleansing work in the long run. Yogani's view is that, through meditation and other yoga practices, we arrive at a place where serving others comes naturally. Service then becomes a practice in itself, and we would not be denying ourselves while doing it, but be true and kind to ourselves while serving others. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Nov 18 2018 1:25:39 PM |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2018 : 2:32:45 PM
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Thank you Blue, note that I edited Ramana’s teaching. When I started this thread I went from memory. It took me a while to find his exact words which were only slightly different than I thought. And while looking for the one in question I found another so added that one too.
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Edited by - Herb on Nov 18 2018 3:38:24 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2018 : 5:23:19 PM
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Yes, I see the change in your post. It does bring dispassion more into focus.
As you put it before, it seemed that you used 'vairagya' in the sense of 'renunciation' or 'self-denial', which could be a practice. In its basic sense, of 'dispassion', I see vairagya more as a quality arising from practice. It strengthens with the development of the Witness (or Inner Silence, as we call it in AYP). So as we practice meditation, dispassion will come, as a stage in our development.quote:
Q: Why is it that the mind cannot be turned inward in spite of repeated attempts?
A: “It is done by abhyas[practise] and vairagya[dispassion] and that succeeds only slowly.
I would say that, in AYP, we would tweak that quote slightly, to read: "It is done by abhyas[practice], which leads to vairagya[dispassion]." And yes, it is a very gradual process.
With regards to turning the mind inwards, that, in AYP, is a result of practice too. In my experience, it has a lot to do with cultivating ecstatic bliss. The mind will turn inwards readily when extatic conductivity occurs. Indeed, with something soo enticing to turn it inwards  , it comes a point when it will not wish to go anywhere else! (This is where grounding and self-pacing come in, to keep you anchored in day to day life.)
When you look at it like that, self-denial loses its meaning.
When you live in bliss, what does it matter that you forgo a few tiny crumbs of pleasure? Things that seemed necessary comforts and oases of pleasures in the past, will lose their significance. So 'denial' is not even a proper term. It might look like self-denial from the outside, but to a yogi with a few years of practice under his/her belt, it isn't. Not really. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Nov 18 2018 5:24:59 PM |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2018 : 01:59:38 AM
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Awesome post! Thanks again Blue
I see your point, and relating it to my experience of awakening followed by extream self-denial, although the extream control of desires like lust, gluttony, anger, sinful bragging, retaliating aggressively when offended, etc, etc, etc, came immediately with the awakening rather than gradually, it wasn’t experienced as self-denial. I was suddenly experiencing so much bliss that, like you say, it didn’t matter that I was forgoing what had previously(to the awakening) been perceived as pleasure. Those pleasures suddenly lost thier pull, as I was then seeking the ecstatic bliss as you put it. For instance, I had a food addiction previous to my awakening that, over the years, had resulted in a LOT of extra baggage haha, but afterwards was living in so much bliss that I hardly thought of food after my awakening and, as a consequence, the excess weight just dropped away very quickly. But, where I should have felt weak during the weight loss, I was filled with energy and what Christ called “power” in Acts 1: 8.*
One very important point, however, without the teachings on purity and avoiding sins given in most, if not all, religions, I may never even have thought of self-denial before or maybe even after my awakening. According to Ramana and Christianity, the self must be denied via doing all we can to live a pure and sinless life. This self-denial does not, however, mean that we have to renounce the world and go live in a monestary or convent. It is an inner renouncement of worldly desires. As the identification with the Self or God-within becomes stronger and stronger, the pull of the self or ego towards worldly things becomes less and less. Jesus, Ramana, Ramakrishna and Gandhi for instance, were all celibates. To me, this has been the hardest thing to deny, but your comments on the overwhelmning joy of esctatic bliss obliterating other desires makes perfect sense. After my awakening was the only time in my adult life when I wasn’t indulging in lust.
As I read the e-book on vairagya mentioned in my first post and relate what I learn to your above posts, I will probably have more questions. Please check back here from time to time as I really appreciate your replies.
*as a side note, the “power” that came with the awakening was amazing. Here is the teaching given by Jesus, “When the holy Spirit comes upon you, you will be filled with power...” In Christianity, the holy Spirit comes immediately with your initial awakening or enlightenment. It is the “first of God’s gifts.” This phenomenon of power coming with the initial awakening is by no means unique to Christianity. In Kashmir Sivaism one cannot even be initiated into it by a Hindu preist without this “descent of power” which in Sanskrit is called “Saktipata.”
One other side note: speaking of ecstatic bliss. In Christianity we are taught not to seek the ecstatic bliss associated with blessings from God. We are to seek to love God for Himself alone and not for His gifts. To drive this point home, God often withdraws His blessings for a time to allow you to forget about the bliss and seek Him alone. This is called the “Dark night of the soul.” Does AYP teach that we should seek, or what you call cultivate, esctatic bliss in or during the practise of meditation? Thanks again.
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Edited by - Herb on Nov 19 2018 05:19:46 AM |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2018 : 10:04:54 AM
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In my study of vairagya I found similar words to Ramana’s in the English commentary I have on the Yoga Sutras(YS’s). This one* has it: YS 1:12 “They(the mind waves or vritti) are controlled by means of practice and non-attachment.” YS 1:15 “Non-attachment is self-mastery; it is freedom from desire for what is seen or heard,” followed by the comments:
“Vairagya(Non-attachment) is the practise of discrimination...We gradually gain control of desire by asking ourselves: ‘Why do I really desire that object? What permanent advantage should I gain by possessing it? In what way would its possession help me toward greater knowledge and freedom?’
These questions show us that the desired object is not only useless as a means to liberation but potentially harmful as a means of ignorance and bondage; and, further, that our desire is not really desire for the object-in-itself at all, but only a desire to desire something, a mere restlessness of mind.
Non-attachment may come very slowly, but even its earliest stage is marked by a new sense of freedom and peace! And, as we progress and gain increasing self-mastery, we shall see that we are renouncing nothing that we really need or want, we are only freeing ourselves from bondage to the material world.
The ordinary undiscriminating life of sense-attachment is really much more painful, much harder to bear, than the disciplines that will set us free.”
The term vairagya appears three times in the Bhagavad Gita (6.35, 13.8, 18.52) where it is recommended as a key means for bringing control to the restless mind. It is also the main topic of Moksopaya or Yoga-Vasistha.
*From “How to Know God: the Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali” by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher Isherwood.
It’s interesting to note the different English translations of the Sanskrit word “Vairagya”; from the negative sounding “self-denial” to the less negative sounding “dispassion” to the rather neutral sounding “control of desire” all the way to the far more palatable sounding “non-attachment.” Also “discrimination,” a word I know well from the Christian practise of spiritual combat against sin, is mentioned. My take on it is: if one really desires liberation enough to develop vairagya, during it’s development, all these things must be come to terms with as the self or ego is overcome.   |
Edited by - Herb on Nov 26 2018 11:25:55 AM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2018 : 11:31:46 AM
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Hello Herb
quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Does AYP teach that we should seek, or what you call cultivate, esctatic bliss in or during the practise of meditation? Thanks again.
In AYP, we cultivate ecstatic conductivity in combination with inner silence(the witness). That is the formula for progress in yoga. We do not seek or get hang up on bliss. If/when it comes, fine. If it doesn't, that is fine too. Seeking a specific state, any state, is a hindrance.
Yogani points out more than once in the lessons that bliss occuring during sitting practices can be a distraction. His advice is to favour the practice because it is practice that leads to progress.
One word of caution about "overcoming the self or ego". AYP does not recommend this kind of antagonistic approach. We cultivate inner silence (i.e. "God the Father in christianity) and the energy ("the Holy Spirit"). That's all. Creating internal conflict by fighting or overcoming anything can be counterproductive.
Best wishes |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2018 : 10:58:17 AM
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2018 : 08:33:44 AM
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As one begins to glimpse the Self in one’s meditative practise as well as one’s life outside of formal sitting practise, one finds that Vairagya becomes almost effortless. Making decisions based on healthy choices that promote the meditative and spiritual lifestyle, which were very hard and doomed to fail previously, then become as easy as coming to a fork in the road where one direction is the wrong way and choosing the other direction. The egoic self loses it’s power to influence your choice.
For instance, my egoic self loves refined sugar and I am 61 years old now and on the verge of getting diabetes. When I started to glimpse the Self several times a day, it became almost effortless to choose to drink my coffee without the standard two teaspoons of sugar that I had been adding. And, because the egoic self was no longer exerting much influence, the thought of substituting an artificial sweetener for the sucrose never even occured to me.
This principal applies to all areas of one’s life once the ego is brought under control through clear identification with the Self, or Atman. So things like becoming a vegatarian, a faithful spouse, choosing not to bother fighting back when someone offends you(your egoic self) and stopping anything and everything that hinders a meditative lifestyle then becomes simply a matter of choice. The realized still see the sugar, the highly processed foods, the juicy steak, the sexy flirtatious co-worker, the irrate dude who is swearing, raising his voice and being rude, but the temptation to gratify one’s ego is beginning to dissolve.
Through dedicated meditation, twice daily for twenty minutes at a time and non-attachment to everything that gratifies the ego, the aspirant gets closer and closer to the goal of Self-realization. I am now beginning to see why Ramana(and the Gita and the Yoga Sutras) say that meditation and vairagya go hand in hand.
Q: “Is it necessary to give up worldly desires?”
Ramana: “Why do we desire? Enquire. Know the Self and desires fall away of their own accord. To bring all desires, all thoughts, to one point within; that is realization. The bee buzzes noisily around the flower seeking nectar to make honey. When it finds the nectar, it is silent and still. So with man’s soul, seeking God it strives noisily, but when it finds the Self, it rests contently.”
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Edited by - Herb on Dec 29 2018 6:41:03 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2018 : 11:25:05 PM
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quote:
Ramana: “Why do we desire? Enquire. Know the Self and desires fall away of their own accord. To bring all desires, all thoughts, to one point within; that is realization. The bee buzzes noisily around the flower seeking nectar to make honey. When it finds the nectar, it is silent and still. So with man’s soul, seeking God it strives noisily, but when it finds the Self, it rests contently.”
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2019 : 01:41:06 AM
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I have gone back to eating and drinking a lot of things that had dropped away previously. Enjoying the delicious fruits of this world is part of the reason we are here in the first place. To live and enjoy life fully without unhealthy attachments. This may be the only world we get to enjoy the sense of taste. Let us not waste that for over-zealous self-denial. 
I am reminded of Bodhi Tree 
Sey
P.S. It is the festive season , a time to enjoy the good fruits of your labour .
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Edited by - SeySorciere on Jan 02 2019 01:43:49 AM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2019 : 02:49:57 AM
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| What Sey said. |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2019 : 2:25:41 PM
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Sey my dear friend
This is all good and fine for healthy individuals but what about all of the thousands of sick people in hospitals all over the world with over eating related illnesses and who are about to die who have not only shortened their life and caused themselves a HUGE amount of suffering, but have literally eaten themselves to death? What about all the poor souls in detox and recovery centers all over the developing world who have been gratifying their ego’s to such an extent that they have not only ruined their own lives, but the lives of many loved ones that have been living with them and trying to help them? Ego gratification is an epidemic all over the world, and everywhere people can afford this indulgence, it is killing millions of people and destroying the lives of their loves ones trying to help them.
Should alcoholics, drug addicts, food addicts and sexual offenders indulge themselves even more than normal just because it’s the festive season? I think not. Is not their state simply an exageration of our own? Are we any more human than the tens of thousands dying in hospitals all over the world because they have been gratifying their egoic desire to eat rich foods or take illicit drugs or satisfiy their sexual appitites so blindly that they have gotten aids from it? Are we any more human than those dying on the streets because they have been gratifying their egoic desire to get high? What about all the sexual offenders in prisons all over the world and these are only the ones who actually got caught and convicted. These three groups alone represent people who are not any different than you or I, except by degree. The principal of indulgence in ego gratification vs vairagya is the same for them and us, the only difference is in degree. They indulge more and practise vairagya less.
My own veiw of Vairagya has been developing since I started this thread. Spiritually speaking, from the highest standpoint, only the Self exists. The “self” in self-denial is not the Self but the nonSelf or ego. So from the highest standpoint there is, in reality, no self to deny. That being said, I still think it necessary to keep the concepts in my above posts in view as, if one does not consider overindulgence in things that only the ego desires to be wrong, even from a purely moral and ethical point of view, then I doupt very much that any amount of meditation will take such a one towards the goal of Self-realization.
Here is a rather long quote from Ramana explaining that we do not, in reality, have two selves, one who denies the other:
“Q: So I should always look within?
Ramana: Yes
Q: Should I not see the world at all?
R: You are not instructed to shut your eyes to the world. If you consider yourself as the body, the world appears as external. If you are the Self, the world appears as Brahman.
Q: How shall I reach the Self?
R: There is no reaching the Self. If the Self were to be reached, it would mean that the Self is not here and now. The Self is eternally present. If the Self were to be gained anew, it would not be permanent. What is got afresh will also be lost, it would be impermanent. What is not permanent is not worth striving for. So I say, Self is not to be reached. You are the Self, you are already that.
The fact is that you are ignorant of your blissful state. Ignorance supervenes and draws a veil over the pure Bliss. Attempts are directed only towards removing the ignorance, the false identification of the Self with the body, mind and ego. This false identity goes(disappears), only one way: by enquiry into the self which leads directly to the real Self.
Be always reflecting untill the veil is removed and the Self, which was always there, is revealed. Through regular exposure to the Self in this way, the Self itself begins to take over and make itself known to you more and more. It begins to be felt. Then you are to always be reflecting and feeling the real Being. Be That. Cling to it. Let your quest be constant and sustained until you catch the Self and thereby find eternal happiness.
Q: This regular exposure to one’s Self, would you say that it has the power to overcome the carnal passions and excited thoughts of most people?
R: Yes, it is the highest power and overcomes all else. But there is no time sequence in true spiritual development. You are spiritual here and now. Do not entrap yourself into degrees of growth, states of being, personal inadaquacies etc. Do not hug these false limitations. You are the spiritual Self. Be that.
This idea that you have to find yourself is a foolish one. What is there to find? According to that there are two persons—one searching for the other. You are the true Self and only that, nothing else, but you wrongly idenify yourself with the ego and the body and the mind.
We talk of attaining the Self, of reaching God with time. There is nothing to attain. We are already Self-existent. Nor will there ever be a time when we shall be nearer to God than now. We are ever blissful, Self-existent, the Infinite. Our consciousness is unbroken, continuous and eternal. It is all maya, self-hypnotism, to imagine we are otherwise. De-hyptotise yourself. It is ego which deludes itself that there are two selves, one of which we are conscious of now(the person) and the one higher, the Divine, of which we shall one day become conscious of. This is false. There is only one Self and it is fully conscious now and ever. There is neither past, present nor future for it, since it is out of time.”
Since starting this thread my spiritual journey has progressed to where I regularely feel the Self and this feeling draws my mind inward to abide in, or, more specifically, as the Self. Gradually, I am identifying less and less with my ego or old self-image and more and more with the Self, or Atman. This new development has, in most cases, caused the struggle to deny myself, my egoic false self, a non issue. For this reason I now think that calling vairagya self-denial does it, as a worthy virtue, a huge injustice. The english word ”unattachment” is by far a better and more appropriate term.
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 04 2019 7:35:23 PM |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2019 : 11:43:50 AM
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Hi,
Reading this thread 'The evolutionary stages of mind' came to mind. It is not always easy, when we first notice that we are more and more in a state of dispassion. It could be a shock for instance (it was to me) in a normally emotional situation to notice that we are not emotionally involved anymore. It was at that moment the difference between compassion and emotionally involved became crystal clear.
From Yogani:
Dispassion (vairagya)
The condition of dispassion is one of the primary goals of self-inquiry. Those who are very enthusiastic and dedicated to self-inquiry are very passionate about developing dispassion. This is non-relational self-inquiry, of course. We all have to begin somewhere. We can't begin at the end, though we may certainly be passionate about the ideal we have chosen, and that serves a purpose. It is our bhakti (devotion to our chosen ideal).
Dispassion is not a doing at all, and is beyond self-inquiry itself. It isn't even a letting go, for it is beyond choice. Dispassion is a state of being. It is the subject (the witness, our sense of Self) developed through an integration of practices to the point where all the objects of experience are taken in stride, without identification. This applies to events, relationships, and all that is going on in the body, heart and mind.
Is dispassion a state of indifference, a state of uncaring? Does it mean we do not act or react in the world? It does not mean that. It is just the opposite. Much of spiritual development is paradoxical, with less becoming much more.
The gradual emergence of dispassion means we are becoming more free to act for the good of all. Inner silence will move to do this through us more and more, the further we travel along the path. It is the paradox of enlightenment. The more we have gone beyond, the more engaged we will become for the benefit of others. This is the nature of divine consciousness.
We really have to give credit where credit is due. Deep meditation (if we are doing it) is the primary cultivator of dispassion, because dispassion is an advanced stage of the witness.
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Edited by - Charliedog on Jan 06 2019 12:43:04 AM |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2019 : 1:15:44 PM
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Thank you Charliedog
I was beginning to think that AYP was anti-vairagya
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 05 2019 2:20:27 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2019 : 3:51:05 PM
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| to you both a wonderful conversation! |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2019 : 1:08:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Herb
I was beginning to think that AYP was anti-vairagya
And you were right, to the extent that AYP does not support self-denial or dispassion as a leading practice. It is a result of practice.
If anyone tells you otherwise, all you need to do is to remind them of the sexul abuse scandal in the catholic church. Just making a commitment does not mean a celibate lifestyle becomes attainable. The same applies to most attempts to repress urges or cravings.
AYP's stance is that practices, staring with meditation, then pranayama etc. are the way to go. Then the urges and cravings will fall away naturally. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jan 06 2019 1:09:20 PM |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2019 : 1:32:57 PM
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quote:
And you were right, to the extent that AYP does not support self-denial or dispassion as a leading practice. It is a result of practice.
If anyone tells you otherwise, all you need to do is to remind them of the sexul abuse scandal in the catholic church. Just making a commitment does not mean a celibate lifestyle becomes attainable. The same applies to most attempts to repress urges or cravings.
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2019 : 09:13:52 AM
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Thanks again Blue.
You have brought vairagya into a much clearer light for me. As a side note, the scandals that happen from Catholic priests who are sexual offenders make great headlines for newspapers, TV News channels and tabloids, but in truth there are as many if not more sexual and violent offending Protestant Pastors and they are rarely celibates. I am an avide forensic documemtory enthusiast and, because I am both Catholic and Protestant, whenever there is a spiritual leader of any church who gets caught and convicted of a serious crime I note this intently. My current tally on a percentage basis is that people who do not seem to practise any form of spirituality have the highest incidences of serious crime, then Church goers who are not in any position of leadership have the second highest incidences of serious crimes, then Protestant Pastors, and the least number of serious crimes are actually the Catholic Priests(out of these four groups and based on a percentage basis). But when a Catholic priest does get charged with a serious offence, it gets way more news coverage. This results in an inaccurate impression by the general public.
Last week I was in a medi center waiting to see a doctor when a guy sat down and started saying that all Catholic Priests are perverts and how you never hear of a protestant going to prison for rape or murder. I said that was not true. I had just watched a forensic documentary the night before where a Protestant Pastor was convicted of murder and got 40 years in prison.
There are lots of sexual offenders in all areas of life including Yoga enthusiasts.
My own experience is that, as a devout Christian I did practise fairly severe austerities after my Saktipata but was not able to control my worldly desires over the long haul, even though I did everything that Christianity had to offer. I prayed a LOT, I went to church every week and really worshiped God, I read the Bible for several hours a day, and I did a lot of Christian service. But a few years after my Saktipata I fell right back into egoic self-indulgence to pretty much the same level as before my awakening. And I see this same trend over and over in other Christians. Christianity is just not enough to overcome sin in most cases. It might work for a while, but many good Christian’s eventually fall back into overindulgence in there egoic desires. They are just too identified with their egos and there is no clear path to help them find and identify with the divinity within themselves, God-within, what we call the Self, or Atman.
Maybe some day the Pope will make it manditory that all priests practise Yoga meditation
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 07 2019 09:55:16 AM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2019 : 1:45:12 PM
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Hello Herb
I am not able to assert that that there are more sex offenders among catholic priests than in other groups of people, as I don't have the numbers. I have referred to it because some cases are well publicised and most people would have heard about the problem. I do, however think that it is unwise to prohibit sex, especially when there is a lack of method for attaining brahmacharya. It's a bad idea anyway, even when offering the means for attaining brahmacharya. It would be putting the carriage in front of the horses.
Reading through the gnostic gospels, I get the impression Jesus taught his disciple some practices. They seemed to have been imparted on an individual basis, when a disciple was ready. And those who received them were bound by secrecy not to share them even with their fellow students. (see The Gospel of Thomas 13).
Going back to vairagya, I like the definition Christi mentioned recently in another thread: "abiding in the bliss of the Self". It the best definition I came across.
https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...17874#149599
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Vairagya
