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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 08:11:27 AM
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quote:
The ignorant man goes no further than the concept of God as an old man with a long beard who sat on a golden throne and gave orders for creation. The scientist will go back a little further before he is compelled to draw a veil called the ether; and the philosopher will go yet further before he draws a veil called the Absolute; but the initiate will go back furthest of all because he has learnt to do his thinking in symbols, and symbols are to the mind what tools are to the hand –an extended application of its powers. ... (Esotericists) do not try to explain to the mind that which the mind is not equipped to deal with; they give it a series of symbols to meditate upon, and these enable it to build the staircase of realisation step by step and to climb where it cannot fly. The mind can no more grasp transcendental philosophy than the eye can see music.
(Dion Fortune, The Mystical Qabalah, 1935, pp. 30-31, 29)
I love the above quote and found the implications profound and have been contemplating what it really means to think in symbols, since every spiritual teacher writes allegorically and dreams are in pictures, et al.
And isn't all learning taught in symbols? Didn't we, as children, have to see a picture of a cow, first, before we could relate the picture with the spelling and comprehension of the word spelled C O W?
So. I was thinking... What benefit would it be for a person to meditate on a word, sound, mantra if they didn't have a visual cue or understand what it meant? Or, do you think it's possible that the mind already "knows" what a mantra sound means "inherently", since different symbols/words represent different things depending on ones culture. Or are certain mantras only beneficial is spoken aloud, since it affects the physical apparatus. While certain word mantras are okay to be spoken silently?
Okay, sorry for the convoluted thought, but let me sum it up this way:
Do you think that meditating on "I AM" is beneficial if the mind doesn't have a clue what " I AM " means, or is it more beneficial to focus on a picture like a lotus, like Gopi Krishna did? Since he understood that the picture represented higher awareness.
So, if I meditate on a cow, for example, will I grow horns?  [That part was a joke].
Thoughts?
Btw, Yogani, this may be a good subject for your next book, as it relates to meditation, mantra, etc:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Dec 01 2006 08:35:59 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 10:22:10 AM
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Hi Vil:
Deep meditation mantras (like I AM, plus enhancements) are taken for their inner sound quality only (not meaning), and are therefore no more visually specific than, say, musical tones. The more content (visual or other) we try and attach to a mantra during practice, the less well it will work. Whether a mantra used in deep meditation is a symbol or not will depend on one's interpretation, I suppose, but the more interpreting one does, the less useful the mantra will be for deep meditation.
Interesting topic, but not with much overlap into the simple practice of deep meditation. As has been said by the great sages of lore: "KISS" (Keep it simple, stupid!) 
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 1:53:00 PM
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quote:
yogani: Interesting topic, but not with much overlap into the simple practice of deep meditation. As has been said by the great sages of lore: "KISS" (Keep it simple, stupid!)
LOL
quote:
yogani: Deep meditation mantras (like I AM, plus enhancements) are taken for their inner sound quality only (not meaning)
Wouldn't you say, yogani, that the mind has to give the sound "I AM" some sort of meaning whether it be conscious or not? Maybe the "I AM" is mimicking the sound of the universe "OM" and will naturally attract this dreamless state of consciousness? Or would you say that it's used as a way to focus ones attention, the inner sound quality, as a distraction from thoughts? Maybe both?
I'm trying to understand the mechanics, though not doubting its effectiveness:
Just humor me. Mmkay? Thanks:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 01 2006 2:04:03 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 4:49:22 PM
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Hi Vil:
Have you been through the lessons? Particularly those having to do with deep meditation and mantras (see topic index). I think everything you are asking is pretty well covered in there. If I missed anything, let me know.
The guru is in you. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 6:31:11 PM
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quote:
Have you been through the lessons? Particularly those having to do with deep meditation and mantras (see topic index). I think everything you are asking is pretty well covered in there. If I missed anything, let me know.
The guru is in you.
Okay, thank you. I'll rereview the lessons.
VIL |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 10:11:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Deep meditation mantras (like I AM, plus enhancements) are taken for their inner sound quality only (not meaning), and are therefore no more visually specific than, say, musical tones. The more content (visual or other) we try and attach to a mantra during practice, the less well it will work. Whether a mantra used in deep meditation is a symbol or not will depend on one's interpretation, I suppose, but the more interpreting one does, the less useful the mantra will be for deep meditation.
The guru is in you.
Totally agreed. Right on target. All of the traditional Mantrams, Mandalas, and Symbols initially revealed themselves to the Higher Consciousness of Spiritual Adepts during States of Deep Meditation.  They were manifested from the Source of All That Is...Brahman or God...through the Great Ocean of Divine Consciousness as Spiritual Transmediums which energetically represent the Vibrational Resonance of the Source from which they came.
As such, they are meant to be gifted tools which mortal beings may use to re-unite with God by way of experiencing the Illuminating Spiritual Vibrations of Self-Realization imbedded within the Divine Image of the Mandala or Symbol...and resonating through the Divine Sound of the Mantram. The Higher Spiritual Vibrations they transmit are intended to inwardly saturate our Consciousness, to touch our deepest heart of hearts with God's 'Good Vibes', not to be mentally interpreted and analyzed to the nth degree. A great rule of thumb, therefore, is to 'Think Less and Feel More'!
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 01 2006 10:44:22 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2006 : 05:32:18 AM
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quote:
Doc: Totally agreed. Right on target. All of the traditional Mantrams, Mandalas, and Symbols initially revealed themselves to the Higher Consciousness of Spiritual Adepts during States of Deep Meditation.
I do agree that these symbols were understood by these pioneers of the human experience, but would say that the wisdom was revealed by subsequent contemplation/insight. Meaning, that the person reaches this state of deep meditation [the deepest part of the ocean] and experiences the part of the Universal Sound/Vibration, beyond the dream state, [The "M" in AUM]". Kundalini awakens [my own experience]; and then begins the gradual process of cleansing/unfoldment. In other words, the knowledge doesn't suddenly infuse the individual with insight, but that a series of phenomenon/bodily feelings/Etc., are interpreted - as charted through the human nervous system, via the senses - by the mind - the chakra system.
Mark 4: 26 - 28: "This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. All by itself the soil produces grain--first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head."
quote:
Doc: The Higher Spiritual Vibrations they transmit are intended to inwardly saturate our Consciousness, to touch our deepest heart of hearts with God's 'Good Vibes', not to be mentally interpreted and analyzed to the nth degree.
Contemplation is a form of meditation and the mind is the only rational way to interpret the experience of prana moving through the body or any other spiritual symptom/inquiry - The reason why we have the chakra/sephiroth/and the many other mind/body practices such as yoga.
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 03 2006 06:15:17 AM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2006 : 3:07:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL: "I do agree that these symbols were understood by these pioneers of the human experience, but would say that the wisdom was revealed by subsequent contemplation/insight. In other words, the knowledge doesn't suddenly infuse the individual with insight..." VIL
Namaste VIL!
This is a huge assumption on your part!  And it is an incorrect assumption which has not proven to be true, historically, in the experience of other Sadhakas and Chelas. The Sudden Enlightnement of a Zen Satori is a classic example. This could potentially occur during the very first entry into deep meditation by the most inexperienced, raw beginner. Such an occurrence really puts the senior monks to the test, too! LOL
Ultimately, nothing is impossible for God. Thus, the time and circumstance of Divine Revelation is always determined by God's Will and Blessing, not by human endeavors towards that end, however excellent, prolonged or systematically executed such efforts may be! 
Hari OM!
Doc
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Edited by - Doc on Dec 07 2006 3:30:20 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2006 : 12:46:21 AM
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| Human endeavours are God's Will and Blessing.. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2006 : 10:47:11 AM
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Really? Always and everywhere? No matter who or what?
Perhaps in a Perfect World!  Is this it? Right here...right now? 
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2006 : 3:44:38 PM
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| Yes, All is God's Will. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2006 : 6:21:14 PM
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quote:
Doc: This is a huge assumption on your part! And it is an incorrect assumption which has not proven to be true, historically, in the experience of other Sadhakas and Chelas. The Sudden Enlightnement of a Zen Satori is a classic example. This could potentially occur during the very first entry into deep meditation by the most inexperienced, raw beginner. Such an occurrence really puts the senior monks to the test, too! LOL
Have you experienced Satori, Doc?
VIL |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 09:52:45 AM
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Chiron wrote:
"Yes, All is God's Will."
This statement can be seen as true from one perspective, i.e. god willfully created everything, therefore everything is god's will.
But I believe it is dangerous to put much faith in it because it can lead to sanctioning inaction on the part of good people when others are doing bad things.
If one is witnessing a murder of an innocent, is it god's will to stop it, or is it god's will to do nothing?
a person who obey's god's will 24 hours a day would know which action is god's will.
But the average person who thinks about god very little, and is used to taking action driven by his ego, could very easily decide it is god's will for the murder to happen, and do nothing out of fear for his own safety.
So the danger in saying "all is god's will" is in blurring the line between good action taken by free will, and a lazy, "holier than thou" additude, and inaction.
Or to put it more simply (K.I.S.S.) OUR will is also god's will, therefore we must take good action because doing nothing is also an act of will, and can have bad consequences.
So "everything is god's will" might be an interesting concept, but we have to be careful in trying to apply it to our personal life. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 10:15:01 AM
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| I think it's funny when human beings say what God's will is. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 1:53:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL"Have you experienced Satori, Doc?"
Namaste VIL:
What exactly does such a question have to do with my response to the issue raised in your post? Your question is a non-reply! It has no meaning relative to the point being discussed!
So what difference does it make? And then? Is this merely an attempt to redirect the discussion away from a meaningful discussion of the issue?
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 2:09:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
Yes, All is God's Will.
Namaste Chiron:
So how do you account for the unholy mass murders of the Nazi Death Camps  , or the Cambodian Killing Fields , or the Chinese genocide of at least 20% of the total Tibetan population prior to their invasion ? And these are but a few of the ungodly  atrocities of the past 100 years?  Can acts of such unspeakable cruelty really be viewed as indicative of "God's Will" 
Have you led such a sheltered life, so far removed from the sad reality of such events, like the perihelion of the celestial body which shares your name, that you are thus able to idealistically ignore the occurrence of these things?
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 4:22:12 PM
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What is peace without violence, Doc? What is love without hate? What is wisdom without ignorance? What is truth without lies? What is life without death? You can't have one part of duality without the other. If there was no duality we would be in our primal, indescribable, incomprehensible, infinite state. Now what fun would that be compared to this? ;)
As for those atrocities you mentioned.. most people know only a fraction of the reality of those events due to propaganda and massmedia manipulation. Why didn't you mention the 650,000 dead Iraqis over the past three years? Either way, there is no such thing as a murder of an innocent. Just as there is no such thing as punishment without a crime. If you see someone being murdered, how do you know they are innocent? How do you know what they have done in their prior incarnations? What if they were a murderer in their past life who ate the flesh of babies, and now is what comes to them as punishment? We can't see the full picture yet presume to know who is innocent and what is justice. Justice is rarely recognised in today's world, especially when it comes back to ourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I think it's funny when human beings say what God's will is.
I think its funny when human beings think they have free will.
If anyone thinks they have "free will".. please tell me, at which point in your life did this "free will" begin? Did you choose your date and place of birth? Did you choose your parents and DNA? Did you choose your race/language/nationality? Every choice that you are seemingly presented with is precipitated by a chain of events that lead back to your birth.
Until you surrender your ego and are in complete unity with God you only have an illusion of freewill. Only your true Self has freewill, not this human form which is bound by time and space.
"All works are being done by the Gunas of nature, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer." (3.27) The Bhagavad Gita
"Your Lord is the One who creates whatever He wills, and chooses; no one else does any choosing. Glory be to GOD, the Most Exalted. He is far above needing partners." (28:68) Al-Quaran
"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" Ephesians (1.11), The Bible |
Edited by - Chiron on Dec 09 2006 4:49:24 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 4:44:33 PM
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Politics alert!
Caution guys! One piece of contorversiality begets another. These statistics about Iraq and Tibet, whether accurate or not, are borderline here in terms of forum rules, because of the possibility of political controversy. Not that they shouldn't be discussed, in fact they should, but not here.
If you go far back enough in time, the "political" element practically disappears. No-one's going to get fired up about how many people Alexander the Great killed. So, try to use less controversial and provocative examples guys.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 09 2006 4:52:18 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 5:11:01 PM
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| Truth is truth, whether it is spiritual or political. Challenging our established conclusions on politics is just as vital as challening our established conclusions on spiritual matters, both lead to growth and Yoga. Anyway, isn't this the "Satsang Cafe".. a place for off-topic discussions, why the ban on politics? |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 5:31:02 PM
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Great post, Chiron.
quote:
Doc: What exactly does such a question have to do with my response to the issue raised in your post? Your question is a non-reply! It has no meaning relative to the point being discussed!
So what difference does it make? And then? Is this merely an attempt to redirect the discussion away from a meaningful discussion of the issue?
Hari OM!
Doc
In lieu the subject at hand, I found the question relevant and the reply telling.
A simple, 'No, I haven't experienced Satori', would have sufficed:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 09 2006 5:52:47 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 6:08:51 PM
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Namaste Chiron!
Excellent response, and more than I had hoped to receive from you after the previous one sentence replies. I agree with most of what you said, and I know why I do. But I wanted to hear you elaborate on why you feel as you do. I really liked the Pan-Scriptural quotes in support of your views, too! Very cool!
Thanks for the reply! 
Hari OM!
Doc
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Edited by - Doc on Dec 09 2006 6:56:43 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 6:14:08 PM
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Namaste VIL:
I'm a bit disappointed in your reply. Only more assumptions...but still no answers to my questions, or any substantial replies supporting your views!
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 6:36:05 PM
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chiron wrote:
"Either way, there is no such thing as a murder of an innocent. Just as there is no such thing as punishment without a crime. If you see someone being murdered, how do you know they are innocent?". . .
You would know they are innocent if you are at one with god's will.
If there were no such thing as murder of an innocent, then all murder must be good.
and chiron wrote:
"Until you surrender your ego and are in complete unity with God you only have an illusion of freewill. Only your true Self has freewill, not this human form which is bound by time and space."
If that were true, then our only purpose for being here is to get out of here, and no action we take could possibly be right, and so our only correct path is to withdraw from humanity and think about god until we die?
So how can all that happens here be God's will if there is no purpose for anyone to take any action while in human form?
That theory sounds to me more like NONE of this is God's will!
Actually, there IS a LOT we can do here that is God's will. That's why we are here, to find god, and connect with his will. If it were not possible in our human bodies, then there would be no purpose for us being here together. We could connect with God by ourselves without any contact with other people. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Dec 09 2006 8:05:36 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 7:05:04 PM
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quote:
Namaste VIL:
I'm a bit disappointed in your reply. Only more assumptions...but still no answers to my questions, or any substantial replies supporting your views!
Hari OM!
Doc
This is your original response to my post [Please show me where there are questions raised, since all I see is a post of your opinion - based on others experiences]:
quote:
Namaste VIL!
This is a huge assumption on your part! And it is an incorrect assumption which has not proven to be true, historically, in the experience of other Sadhakas and Chelas. The Sudden Enlightnement of a Zen Satori is a classic example. This could potentially occur during the very first entry into deep meditation by the most inexperienced, raw beginner. Such an occurrence really puts the senior monks to the test, too! LOL
Ultimately, nothing is impossible for God. Thus, the time and circumstance of Divine Revelation is always determined by God's Will and Blessing, not by human endeavors towards that end, however excellent, prolonged or systematically executed such efforts may be!
Hari OM!
Doc
Here is where I stated that I was basing my finding on my experience. I will bold for easy viewing:
quote:
I do agree that these symbols were understood by these pioneers of the human experience, but would say that the wisdom was revealed by subsequent contemplation/insight. Meaning, that the person reaches this state of deep meditation [the deepest part of the ocean] and experiences the part of the Universal Sound/Vibration, beyond the dream state, [The "M" in AUM]". Kundalini awakens [my own experience];
Hence, the reason I asked if you experienced Satori, since some of your posts are very condescending in nature, lack relevance of experience, but are chock full of absolutes based on other people's teachings/findings.
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 09 2006 7:12:47 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 7:10:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish: "...how can all that happens here be God's will if there is no purpose for anyone to take any action while in human form? That theory sounds to me more like NONE of this is God's will!"
Good point! What then do you feel is a workable, alternative spiritual view to Chiron's ideas? Why do you feel that your alternative perspective would be spiritually more 'in tune' with a serious Sadhana? And how would you implement it to be more focused 'on target' and in harmony with a grounded spiritual discipline? Thanks!
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 09 2006 7:13:16 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 7:53:30 PM
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Your post made me think of this quote, Chiron:
quote:
Braving obstacles and hardships is nobler than retreat to tranquility. The butterfly that hovers around the lamp until it dies is more admirable than the mole that lives in a dark tunnel.
- Khalil Gibran
Just thought I'd throw this one in, because I love it. [Although, it's not in line with topic]:
quote:
Keep me away from the wisdom that does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
-Khalil Gibran
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 09 2006 8:07:03 PM |
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SYMBOLS
