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JJJ
43 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 05:58:41 AM
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I am sorry if I open unnecessary new topic because similar topics were started
when I started medtation i did not use mantra, it looked like this: first I was watching and totally relaxing my body ( just observing my body as it is belonging to somedbody else), after few minutes when it was relaxed I just observed my thoughts,I let them flow, I relax them and I was just watching without judgment and without identification, after some time of doing this practise i got into the state when I was just witness and thoughts slowly,slowly fade away and it was the state like let myself jut "to be", sometimes emotions came - and I observed them as well in the same way and then go back to watching thoughts ( so I switch my attention from time to time), so there are some differences to DM: my goal was to observe thoughts and second i didn't make any activity to generate thought ( like mantra), after couple of years I felt very ok with this meditation , it was very relaxing and I could go very deep, now I try mantra and I don't feel such comfort - maybe I should give it a more chance
my questions are:
- is my meditation i did before OK, do you see any mistakes in this meditation- it helped me eventually to go to deep state of witness ( isn't this the same thing we want to achieve with DM)?
- after practising DM for some time is mantra not an obstacle to be just a witness and to relax totally? because wewe have to make action to think mantra
i think there is subtle quality difference with just letting thoughts flow without any action ( more deep and more relaxing) vs doing action like thinking mantra |
Edited by - JJJ on Mar 05 2018 06:02:49 AM |
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 09:57:36 AM
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Dear Christi
Can you please share with me your opinion about this as I see you most experienced :) I will be very thankfull!
I invite of course everybody to share opinions :)
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Edited by - JJJ on Mar 05 2018 10:09:09 AM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 11:14:56 AM
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Hey JJJ,
I'm gonna jump on your post and take it a different direction. If you dislike it, let me know, I'll stop.
I've wondered how you get to absorption in meditation with no meditation object. Will you get stuck as a distance observer?
Maybe, you are calmer and less effects you, but how do you realize unity if you are still observing? |
Edited by - lalow33 on Mar 05 2018 11:52:51 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 4:55:06 PM
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Hi JJJ,
The meditation technique you are describing is a common one. It is referred to as Zazen in the Zen tradition. It is also sometimes called "taking the one seat" or "simply sitting", and in AYP it is referred to as the "Passive Awareness Technique".
It is a technique that is sometimes used in AYP by advanced practitioners, if they are experiencing over-sensitivity to the mantra. It is discussed in lesson addition 367.4:
Addition 367.4 - Passive Awareness Technique for Very Sensitive Meditators
The reason it is usually only offered to advanced practitioners is because until the witness is present, it is not a very effective technique. In the pre-witness stage, where we are becoming identified with every thought and emotion that comes along, it can be a case of simply running from one thought to another, or from one emotion to another, without having any anchor. A bit like being lost in a storm at sea, without a safe harbour.
An object, such as the breath, or a mantra, provides a safe harbour. It provides something that we can repeatedly come back to, every time we get lost in the mind. So, breath meditation and mantra meditation are proactive, in a way that the Passive Awareness Technique is not.
Mantra meditation also has the advantage that the mantra has a particular vibration which has a purifying effect on the subtle nervous system. So as a technique, it has certain advantages over both the Passive Awareness Technique, and breathing meditation.
When switching from one technique to another, there is often a clunky stage, as the mind and subtle neurobiology have to get used to a new practice. During this clunky stage, it is quite normal not to experience the same level of peace and stillness as we felt when practicing something that we had a lot of familiarity with. That does not say anything about the techniques, but only about what we are used to.
There are states in meditation beyond the witness state. The next stage beyond the witness is discrimination (viveka). Beyond that is dispassion (vairagya). Beyond dispassion, is unity (yoga) and divine love. The mantra is not an obstacle in the cultivation of any of these stages of the path. No matter how deep we go in, the mantra can always be used as an anchor to come back to whenever we realize that we are off it.
It is not true that repeating a mantra always requires some deliberate action. There is a stage where the repetition of the mantra becomes automatic in the mind. But it does not actually matter if the repetition of the mantra is something we are doing deliberately, or if it is happening automatically. The same processes will occur, such as the mantra becoming increasingly refined, losing the mantra into silence and coming back to it, the cultivation of samadhi and the stages of viveka, vairagya, metta and yoga.
To answer your question Lalow, absorpsion (samadhi) can happen whether we are using an object in meditation or not. So absorption can happen using the Passive Awareness Technique, just as it can with Deep Meditation. The transition from the witness to unity is through the process described above (viveka, vairagya and so on...).
It is explained in more detail in these lessons:
Lesson 327 - The Evolutionary Stages of Mind
Lesson 326 - Styles of Self-Inquiry and Bridging the Gap
Lesson 350 - Practices for Moving Beyond the Witness Stage
Lesson 333 - Dissolving the Witness in Unity
Lesson Addition 333.1 - Is the Witness a Retreat from Life?
Lesson 392 - The Aloneness of Enlightenment
Christi |
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 07:12:08 AM
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Thank you for your replies
lalow33 -there are soem answers in lessons mentioned by Chrsiti
Christi- you made it so clear- thank you for your effort to give these answers
there is definition in lesson 333:
"the witness and emptiness/void are two aspects of the same thing. The witness is awareness with objects. How could there be a witness with nothing to witness? But emptiness can be present with or without objects. So the witness is emptiness with objects"
i didn't get to place without thoughts yet with my witness meditation but i feel I was very close at the edge to relax little more into this void
one more question still concerns mantra vs witness ( it is theoretical question as I wasn't exploring this state of void as mentioned):
when you get to this void ( no thoughts) and then thought appear - isn't it better to just witness it and let pass like a cloud on the sky- then very quick you can get back to void,can't you? on the other hand if such thought appear in the void and you do action to enhance single thought by thinking mantra you generate thought and you are not coming back to clear void, so why do mantra then? I assume of course that being in state without thought /void is a goal, but maybe it is wrong assumption. Can you put some light on this?
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Edited by - JJJ on Mar 06 2018 09:16:35 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 07:44:45 AM
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Hi JJJ,
The simple answer is that a mantra is a thought. So, mantras and thoughts operate on the same level of the mind. If you are in silence without thought (nirvikalpa samadhi) and then you come out to the level of thoughts (savikalpa samadhi) and you are practicing Deep Meditation, then as soon as you notice that are off the mantra, you would easily favour the mantra again. Then you may find that you lose the mantra again into silence and so on. So with the mantra, you can be moving between nirvikalpa samadhi and savikalpa samadhi in that way.
But the habit of easily favouring the mantra, over anything else going on in the mind will be there, which will reduce the tendency to get lost in thoughts. Getting lost in thoughts can happen, even at the boundary between savikalpa samadhi and nirvikalpa samadhi.
Christi |
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 09:14:24 AM
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OK Christi, I think i got it now
so these 2 meditations ( mantra and witness) are both ok and correct,they take you to the same result, just 2 different tools to get the same result,
you can just wintess thoughts and let them go or do mantra and eventually let it go too ( which some can say is faster way to let go thoughts , because you have just one thought to let go and you are not too much distracted by other thoughts- make sense
really- I just wanted to make sure that if I will not feel good with mantra meditation I can continue witness meditation and it will be ok as well
Thank you! |
Edited by - JJJ on Mar 06 2018 09:32:15 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 11:48:40 AM
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Hi JJJ,
You can use whatever meditation technique you like.  But, if you want to follow the AYP system of practices, then mantra meditation is used, except for situations where there is extreme sensitivity to the mantra, when breathing meditation or the Passive Awareness Technique is used.
If you decide to use the Passive Awareness Technique, whatever the circumstances are, then you would be doing something other than baseline AYP and that would be your own experiment. See lesson 384 on that:
Lesson 384 - Baseline Systems of Practice and Research on Modifications
And yes, both forms of meditation will end up in the same place. It is just that mantra meditation has some advantages that the Passive Awareness Technique does not have.
Christi
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 2:13:27 PM
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Christie
is there a lesson in which there is direct information about using Passive awareness technique when sensitivity to the mantra? I found only lessons about breathing meditation as possible modification. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 3:38:30 PM
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ok, thank you
I purchased only e-books with lessons vol 1 and vol. 2, I will think about registering on AYP plus site
thank you again! |
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Dm vs witness meditation
