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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 11 2017 : 2:24:59 PM
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Hello all,
I think that mostly in meditation I find myself in the witness state, but not as often being absorbed in Samadhi or that I find myself in a stream of thought.
I mostly witness all thoughts and feelings, and the mantra also... Though, there is some tension in meditation, I cannot fully relax and being absorbed in meditation, whatever plays out in it so to speak.
My question is simply; how do we go from the witness state into Samadhi? (including finding yourself in a stream of thoughts, because I suppose that this is Samadhi WITH thought in it, am I right?)
If I could relax in it, would Samadhi happen easier and more often?
How often could one expect to find oneself in Samadhi, is it let's say every third meditation, every fifteenth meditation, or what is "normal" or to be expected?
I know there are these small moments which Yogani talks about when loosing oneself in a thought stream, the silence before the thought stream begins, but I mean more when you get lost in Samadhi for a few minutes or more... loosing oneself in thoughts happen more often for me, at least every second meditation or so.
Does my thoughts and questions make sense? |
Edited by - colours on Sep 11 2017 2:25:41 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2017 : 10:27:03 PM
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Your thoughts and questions make sense, and they resemble my own curiosities.
One thing I've had to cope with is the unpredictability of what I will encounter during meditation. It's like walking into a movie theater without exactly knowing which movie is going to be playing. The more I just relax and enjoy the show as it unfolds, the easier it becomes. But if I try to force it to be something else, the experience becomes difficult.
Each person's matrix of karma and embedded obstructions is complex and unique. That is why we rely on the simplicity of easily favoring the mantra, rather than striving to chase samadhi. The reality is: We have to go through what we have to go through. The silence bubbles up through the cracks, but the silence isn't something that we can grasp like a possession. It's far too good to be coveted like a piece of private property. Stillness is open to the public domain, even though it has deeply intimate and personal qualities. For this reason, the stillness/silence fills us in often mysterious ways and begins to take over. We're just actively surrendering to That.
The way to relax is to fully accept the scenery as it comes, and to use the mantra as a purifying, exploratory vehicle to sweep through and navigate the layers that present themselves before the witness.
Trying to capture samadhi won't help you relax. But riding the surfboard of the mantra across a wide variety of waves will.
Surf's up, bro.  |
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 08:07:00 AM
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Yes, I know you are not supposed to chase certain states or anything in meditation, that is a good point, thank you. I will keep surfing ;)
"The witness and emptiness/void are two aspects of the same thing. The witness is awareness with objects. How could there be a witness with nothing to witness? But emptiness can be present with or without objects. So the witness is emptiness with objects."
- Quote from Yogani's book Liberation, page 101.
What Yogani wrote make perfect sense, but personally it feels like I can witness emptiness, or silence, because I am not absorbed by silence as soon as it is silence in my mind (no thoughts). I can stop my thoughts with force, but I am not absorbed with silence because I do... I am simply witnessing no thought, silent mind. What is your and others take on this?
/colours |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 09:25:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by colours
How often could one expect to find oneself in Samadhi, is it let's say every third meditation, every fifteenth meditation, or what is "normal" or to be expected?
Samadhi is the most unpredictable of guests. You can clean and prepare the house for it (as indeed we should), but the guest will turn up when it wants to. It can visit you during or outside meditations, there is really no rule. And you will only know it's been after it has departed. The moment you think "this is samadhi" you're no longer in samadhi, because "this is samadhi" is a thought.
As Bodhi said, letting go of expectations is the only attitude that makes sense with regards to samadhi.
Enjoy your practice  |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 09:41:57 AM
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This is a very good question. If there were a way to “go” from the witness state to samadhi, that would mean that both “the witness” and “samadhi” were states, so they were transitory. But what if “samadhi” is not a transitory state? Samadhi comes from the Sanskrit samma which means to “go along” or “to go together.” The root of this word means “unified.” So, samadhi is a unified state of consciousness, when the split between the meditator, the object of meditation, and the process of meditation disappears. Samadhi is not the result of doing something. It is an undoing – and if you know how to not-do-it, that is the way. At some level, even trying to relax is an obstacle, because even relaxation implies some level of activity, of control, and this interferes with not-doing.
Is there anything we can do to go into samadhi? Sure, we can meditate. Real meditation is a non-doing. It is a bit like going to the movies, as Bodhi says, without knowing what movie will play. And it is also like going to the movies where no movie is playing, and not going anywhere. It is this way conveyed in Bodhi’s post, but not exactly in the words – a joy and a letting go, a kind of vacation from all the life demands and desires. It is an art rather than a technique. The best way is just to continue to practice, without aiming for a specific state. Yoga will take care to get you there/here on the shortest and most comfortable way. 
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 09:55:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by colours
I can stop my thoughts with force, but I am not absorbed with silence because I do... I am simply witnessing no thought, silent mind. What is your and others take on this?
/colours
To stop the thoughts with force is like stopping the ocean waves by pushing them down. Even if the ocean looks somewhat still, the tumultuous energy is only masked by the effort. How does this work for you? What happens if you just let go of the effort? |
Edited by - Blanche on Sep 12 2017 10:05:55 AM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 10:49:33 AM
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colours,
This is just a tendency showing up in meditation. I believe that is what we are purifying. No big deal. The need for this or that will start to fade. You already recognize it. I think you'll be fine. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 11:31:15 AM
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I think what we witness is the edge of silence, if that makes sense. To continue with the ocean metaphor, it's like seeing the lapping waves coming on shore. The little waves are a hint of the whole ocean, but not the whole ocean itself. So I can relate to your experience of witnessing little pieces of silence at given moments.
But, like Blanche said, the more we become absorbed, the less there is of the subject-object duality. Also, like Blue said, the thought of observing samadhi can extract us from the very presence we are desiring to become.
So, we can witness the edge, but to go beyond witnessing, we simply merge and become the stillness through the spiral of non-doing and easily favoring the mantra. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 12:14:49 PM
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Guys and girls,
I'm reading this thread and thinking to myself "for somehting that is simplicity itself, it is really not at all straightforward to explain". Words get in the way!
Blanche gives an accurate explanation, I'm just wondering how accessible it is to someone at the beginning of his journey. I've tried to give an answer as simple as I could make it and it's on the verge of being inaccurate. Bodhi is safe from error in the realm of metaphor and Lalow is wise not to attempt to explain it.
Dear Colours, don't let us confuse you. Stick to your practice and the answer will come to you (one day, probably when you least expect it ) Making it an intellectual exercise won't take you there. Just practice and enjoy life. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Sep 12 2017 3:08:18 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 2:16:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
I'm reading this thread and thinking to myself "for somehting that is simplicity itself, it is really not at all straightforward to explain". Words get in the way!
I had an English professor who once said to me: "The job of the poet is to describe the indescribable." 
It may be a losing proposition to try to capture the Great Mystery with words, but it sure is fun making a bid at getting at least a little bit closer to the Source by using language. As we close the distance, the small benchmarks of progress keep us motivated. Like you say, Blue, those benchmarks are found in daily life, more so than in the fleeting scenery of our meditation.
Nevertheless, we still need something to chase, and that's why the malleability of the mantra is so enticing. That sound and vibration is better dough to knead than the ungraspable stillness from which it emanates.
Oops. I just indulged in more metaphor.  |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 3:11:44 PM
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@Bodhi Tree
And now we know why you are indulging in poetry. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 3:12:09 PM
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Hi Blue,
That's why I responded. I thought you all were being too poetic. I don't even get what's being talked about.
Whatever tightness or strategies or controlling in meditation will show themselves and just simply be seen. This is part of purification. It's not like everyone comes to meditation all surrendered. |
Edited by - lalow33 on Sep 12 2017 3:39:35 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 3:32:35 PM
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You balance us out, Lalow!  |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 3:40:46 PM
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| I enjoy your poetry, Bodhi! Love you. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 3:43:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
@Bodhi Tree
And now we know why you are indulging in poetry.
Bodhi and poetry? No way. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 3:56:37 PM
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Hi Colors,
Good advice from all.
Let me add to the confusion- We are Samadhi.
Continue with your daily practices,clarity will dawn in sooner or later.
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Edited by - sunyata on Sep 12 2017 3:57:57 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2017 : 7:15:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
Let me add to the confusion- We are Samadhi.
LOL. Yesss...there it is.
@Lalow
Thank you! I enjoy your writing too. It's genuine.
@BlueRC
You've got me pretty well figured out most of the time. |
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2017 : 05:24:06 AM
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Thank you all for the interesting posts. It is not easy to explain, but I think I get what you are trying to say... I admit, it is interesting to write and ponder about, but I guess it is best to just continue with practice and not control or expect anything, if you can... But some how, as Blanche says, even trying to not control is a form of controlling, he he.
I will simply continue with enjoying the easy way of meditation... It will all play out well in the end ;)
Thanks again.
/colours |
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2017 : 05:32:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
To stop the thoughts with force is like stopping the ocean waves by pushing them down. Even if the ocean looks somewhat still, the tumultuous energy is only masked by the effort. How does this work for you? What happens if you just let go of the effort?
Just to answer Blanche's question. I am normally not doing this in meditation or outside, it was only a way to explain my question and what I meant.
But when I test it and do it, there is strain and I feel the not thought thoughts so to speak, as energy in the background wanting to be thought... So the best practice is to let go and not control your thoughts.
But as I said, it was just a "thought experiment" ;) |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2017 : 08:19:08 AM
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Hello Colours,
Everyone, through their answers have painted the whole spectrum of the rainbow. Let me now add my colours to the rainbow.
The witness stage is a stage where there are no labels. If you can separate the I from your body, then you are said to be in the witness stage. In this stage you are aware of your body even in your sleep.
Read lessons 327 and 329 for a clearer understanding. Your concerns match the description in the pre-witness stage mentioned in lesson 327. The metaphor of the guest and the room is apt for Samadhi.
Stick to your daily routine of meditation, and in time, the dark clouds of doubt will be replaced by the bright sun.
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2017 : 11:41:24 AM
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Hello jusmail. After reading your post, and then my first post in this thread I had a flash of understanding... I think I have misinterpreted what the witness really is... maybe. When you get lost in a thought stream, it is awareness WITH objects, thus witnessing, but when you get lost in awareness WITHOUT objects (thoughts) you are in Samadhi... so I am not in the witness state just because I mentally witness my thoughts... Aaaah. Is this correct? This cleared my question marks in the matter atleast.
I will read the lessons you write about and get back to you. Just wanted to write the answer while the understanding was fresh so to speak ;)
(Just correct me if I am wrong though....)
Thank you! What a lovely forum this is... :D
Love,
Colours |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2017 : 2:28:33 PM
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Hi Colours,
The difference between simply "thinking" and "witnessing a thought" is that when we are witnessing, there is no identification.
Witnessing is not necessarily samadhi though. Samadhi is when we become established in silence and know ourselves to be that silence. Samadhi can occur with thoughts and objects present (savikalpa samadhi) or with no thoughts, or objects present (nirvikalpa samadhi).
It is very difficult to imagine what samadhi is like if it is has not been experienced, but once it is experienced, then we know what it is. The same is true for inner silence and the witness.
Christi
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2017 : 08:29:58 AM
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Christi: okay, maybe this is not something to figure out mentally, but to be experienced and understand that way :)
But thanks anyways for the explanation.
/Colours |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2017 : 11:49:18 AM
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Notice in meditation you are witnessing.
Your mind is occupied with the creation of a thought. Look here, notice this thought, and this thought.
That is still ego, the mind.
To move beyond is to truly let go of even the noticing of the creation of the thought.
It is like the sky doesn't notice every cloud that goes by it is just the sky.
The same with thoughts in meditation. Don't notice them, just let the pass by, unattaching and when you can truly do that you will realize the light that is you... Samadhi. |
Edited by - jonesboy on Sep 18 2017 12:46:04 PM |
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2017 : 8:12:33 PM
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Very insightful, jonesboy!
I am starting to realize what you write about... Just to be, not to do... In meditation. It is an undoing... :)
Love,
colours |
Edited by - colours on Sep 18 2017 8:24:48 PM |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2017 : 12:55:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by colours
Hello jusmail. After reading your post, and then my first post in this thread I had a flash of understanding... I think I have misinterpreted what the witness really is... maybe. When you get lost in a thought stream, it is awareness WITH objects, thus witnessing, but when you get lost in awareness WITHOUT objects (thoughts) you are in Samadhi... so I am not in the witness state just because I mentally witness my thoughts... Aaaah. Is this correct?
Yes, you are right there. This thread might help clarify things even more.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2639
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The witness and being absorbed in Samadhi
